Official Ski Pressing/Shaping/Building/Constructing Thread

ok, I guess I can try. I live in Germany though, so I don't know if some stuff is cheaper/ more expensive in the US (or whereever you come from).
12€ for 4m of 32 wide glass fiber
20€ for 1l of Epoxy + resin hardener
(3,50€ for white pigments, you dont need those, I just bought them to color my skis white)
15€ for edges
48€ for the wooden cores (ash, 198 x 16cm, I bought them as a whole, you can also get wood and glue your own ones)
24€ for the bases
7€ for tipspacers
24€ for the topsheet
3€ for VDS tape
4€ for canvas (so that the skis wont glue to the vacuum bag)
6€ for a thin plastic sheet with holes in it (so the the pressure will be distributed evenly)
20€ for the vacuuming bag (5m long, 1200mm wide)
a few € for scrap wood used to build the mold, I had a lot of stuff laying around so I didnt need to buy anything, not that expensive though

and for the pump: I allready had mine, but as I said before, you can buy one for fairy cheap of ebay, it would be something between 50 and 150€, depending on what you want. Or ask someone you know that has one for the kitchen to vacuum food, thats what I used and it worked great.

so overall, you will be at something around 185€ (not including the pump). Some of the stuff (vacuum bag, canvas, thin plastiv sheets) can be used several times, so the more you build, the cheaper it will get.
Add the pump and you pay around 300€ for your first pair. All this only works if you have the right tools though, otherwise it might get way more expensive. Also, this is a pretty simple layup, only using wooden cores, bases, topsheet and glass fiber. You can use carbon, other fibers etc., that will cost more though.

Hope I could help!

Ohh, I misread, thought you wanted the estimate on a whole pari of skis, my bad.

On the press you have to differ between a vacuum press and a hydraulic press (like op uses).
A vacuum press is fairly cheap. I'd say something like 200€ (including the vacuum pump, which is the most expensive part)

so your currency is the euro correct? and thank you very much for your help. with this I will have the chance to start either this summer or next!!

yeah, currency is Euro (€)

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Just finished cutting out my bases and glueing on the edges. Hopefully I will find some Epoxy tomorrow so I can finish this pair.
For the design, I am thinking of using some permanent markers to draw some stuff directly on the wooden core. That way, I dont loose the wooden "look" and still get to put something "personal" on the skis.
LEts see how that works out xD

Just as a caution, epoxy will smear permanent marker. It did it to my fabric label during the press pressing time, and now they're barley readable. The wood might be absorbing enough of the marker though.

And sorry I've been inactive in here. I did get the tape test done with good results, so I'll post those up soon. And I haven't been working on the skis at all. Been helping a buddy with a carbon fibre project, and it looks like I'm going to have to bust a vacuum bagging setup together for it. So I'll probably expand into a few other composite products aside from skis if I get good at vac-bagging.

yeah, just read about the marker/spoxy stuff. Good that I didnt start yet. So its either pencil directly on the wood or just drawing on paper again. Kinda want to do the wood thing though :P

So, I decided to draw directly onto the core with pencil, this is the result. I am quite happy with it so far (lets see if I will add more). Sorry for the shitty pics, only had my gopro at hand. the moon thing and the eagle are gonna be the frontside, sun the rear.
I hope it will work out as I planned, we shall see soon, I will keep you posted with results!

Jesus that is gnarly looking. And quick, god damn man!

yeah, only problem will be to align the cores right... gotta figure out a way to do that... hope it will work out. I really hope I will be able to buy some decent epoxy somewhere tomorrow, would love to finish the skis then. Gonna go ski next weekend and I would really love to try them. (sorry for eventual spelling mistaskes and so on, Im kinda drunk atm...)#

will post more uopdaztes tomorrow (hopefully...)

you should be able to buy good epoxy at a marina or boat supply/repair shop

yeah, found some epoxy. Had a problem with my vacuum bag though, it inflated after I evacuated it. Now I used a lot of clamps and stuff to try and press the ski manually. We will so how that works out... Update in 24 hours :P

good luck. you are likely to experience some problems because you will not be able to get uniform pressure. Did the bag inflate after you turned the pump off? You should just keep your compressor running for the full 24 hours you are pressing if that's the issue.

Yeah, hopefully they come out good! And I'd definitely turn the pump on and leave it running, or turn it on periodically as well. That's the one thing I'm always worried with the press is that I'll loose pressure so I just let the compressor run all night, and it maybe fires up 4-5 times to compensate for system leaks, but my regulator runs below the pressure cut in to start the compressor, so I never have to worry about that. I should also be planing some cores this afternoon.

Are you profiling cores with a planer? I am having trouble figuring out how to profile mine

I would keep it running if I would use a compressor, but I am using a kitchen machine thing that is usually used to vacuum small amounts of food. I dont think would survive running for longer than 5 min :D
I am just looking at this as some kind of experiment. as far as I see it, the ski should still have the rocker and camber I planned since its laying in the form quite good. Only problem I expect is some delamination of the topsheet/ maybe other layers due to the uneven pressure. I will see tomorrow I guess, nothing I can really do atm anyway. Even if they wont be skiable, I will be able to hang them up on my wall since the graphics turned out quite nice xD

Ohhh that's right. Best of luck, and experiments are how we learn things!

@Cydwhit. I am using a thickness planer to taper cores. Before this I had tried two other wedges that only taper one half of the core at a time, it basically puts the core on an angle to be ran through the planer, then tapers it into a trapezoidal shape... Both of my two wedges were failures and sniped the core reaaaaly badly.

So after a bunch of reading on ski builders, no idea how I hadn't heard of it before, but I cam across what's called a planer sled. What it is is basically a big board with a concave in it. Then the rollers of the planer flex the core into the concave, and because it's deeper in the middle, the cores are effectively planed less.

Here's ON3P using a sled to profile @ 0:40. Notice how there is a gap below the cores' midpoint. It's pretty simple, you can do two cores, and they will come out with an identical profile.

ON3P Factory Tour | No Boundaries 12/13 from ON3P Skis on Vimeo.

I'll see if I can gopro my setup today. Hopefully that all makes sense!

I never did get a chance to get the cores planed... I was going to plane outside in the awesome weather, but it was going to take awhile to set up the planer and all the saw horses, and there was a chance that I was potentially going to chill with a female friend... That never happened, and my cores never got planed!
So, I think I've learned my lesson there. Kind of a waste of good time...

Anyways, I will try to get some video of the crib for ya tomorrow cydwhit! Also stoked to see how your pressing turns out schimmel!

Sweet, thanks, I was looking at either profiling the cores with a bandsaw or building a router table, I'm interested in seeing what you are going with the the planner also although I don't know if I can get access to one, I am also really interested in seeing any of you guys vacuum setups since I am still trying to figure out the logistics of that stuff.

Yeah, I'll try to keep you updated as I go down the vacuum route as well for making parts... If this carbon part project of my buddies turns out well with a vac-bag setup, then I will definitely be playing around with all sorts of composite things for the hill. Stuff like some nice and flexible, lightweight & padded hip protectors made from carbon (or glass) and just more stuff along those lines.

And the planer I'm using is an old crafstman. Now it's not the greatest but it does get the job done, and only cost me and my dad $80. We split the cost. It did need a new pulley machined for it, but luckily I was fortunate enough to learn CAD at school and just drew one and had it machined which didn't cost much... It was less than $40 I think.

The AutoCAD drawing of the pulley:



So if you can find one that needs fixing, and a CNC machine (or even a mill & lathe) then you could probably find yourself a decent used planer. It doesn't even need to be a fixer uper! There should be some floating around, used, at a decent cost.

What are you doing for this carbon fiber project. I have a mega boner for carbon. My dad used to work for adam aircraft before they flopped and i remember going to the production room to make pinewood derby cars and seeing all of this huge equiptment to make fucking flying machines was pretty awesome. The fact that carbon fiber is stronger than steel, which is pretty much the strongest stuff in the universe to a 10 year old, is mind boggling.

From my limited knowledge of CF, it is all mostly vaccum bagging and heat right?

What do yo want to know about the vacuum setup?

Are you working with carbon or skis?

I was just kind of wondering what ninetyfour was doing with the CF, but seeing as vaccum bagging is probably the route i will take if i ever get around to making skis; how well do vaccumed skis hold up? Is the extra money worth it to have a more durable ski from a press? Whatare the main limitations of a vaccum?

Sorry for spelling, grammar, etc, i'm on mobile and really tired.

Im working with skis. Wanted to use some carbon for my latest pair, but never got around to buy it.

As far as I can judge (from the one pair I made and skied so far) the skis hold up great (they are pow skis though). I had some minor issues with topsheet delamination, but nothing a bit of epoxy could fix. Making skis works with bose methods, vacuum pressing and using a "normal" press.
The only difference is in the pressure.

A rather cheap vacuum pump reaches a vacuum of sth like 0-6 to 0-8 bar. This would mean that you have a pressure of about 6000-8000 kg/ square meter.

With a pneumatic press you can reach sth about 5-6bar, which would be a pressure of around 50 000 kg/square meter.

So that is indeed quite the difference. But for skis the pressure of a vacuum pump should definetly be enough. As far as I know, most parts in gliding are pressed with vacuum.
I think the ski industry doesnt use vacuum because its way faster to use a different press + they have the space and materials for proper pneumatic presses (which I wouldn't have for example).

The price for a pneumatic press is also quite high (thats what I've heard at least).

Hope this helps you!

Well, got them out of the press. Didnt look as bad as I expected. One tip didnt connect together at all (tipspacer and base), but other than that and a few slight delaminations of the topsheet nothing to bad.
Only problem is, that they are more or less flat (maybe my mold sucked or maybe it was due to the missing pressure, I dont know), so I have to see if they are even skiable.
Other than that, all looks fine. Just cut them out and I'm almost dont with applying epoxy to the sidewall/filling smaller holes.

Everything, haha, I am planing on using a big hand pump to get most of the air out and then finishing with an vacuum food sealer, I still need to figure out what kind of plastic and tape I should use though. Any imput would be really appreciated

Well, I did pretty much the same thing as you did. Used a handpump first and a food sealer to get the rest of the air out. I bought a special vacuum bag (wasnt even that expensive) and used my food sealer to seal the bag (ours can vacuum + seal), that worked quite well. I also didnt need any tape because I used the sealing function.

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making skis is so much fun, it is a lot of work but well worth it. I just finished my first pair only downside is waiting for snow.

So i'm sure these answers are lost in the thread somewhere but i have some questions. first of all im set on making park skis. i also don't have the money rollin in so im going with the vacuum bag setup. first of all, is it better to put the whole mold in the bag or do the half bag thing. if it is the latter (half bag) , please explain how that all works and where i could get one. second i don't really know a good vacuum pump to use so are there any that have been tried and proved. cheap preferably. i also want to know what kind of wood people are using. mainly because i don't have tons of resources to experiment with so i just want something to go with. MOST IMPORTANT this is probably a complete noob question but can some one please give a specific name to each material that makes up the ski and where to get them such as the bottom and reinforcement layers also good epoxy. i know this is a lot to ask but i would really like this questions answered because i really want to do this. i also have some questions about how to do the core but that can wait. basically im going to eventually need a step by step tutorial on how to construct the ski but that can also wait. thanks all. big thanks to ninetyfour

Okay, I swear I'm not trying to ignore the thread or procrastinate with some things. Been a nutso past few days, and I had to work the nightshift last night. So my cores never got planed, and I can't plane tonight in the garage due to tornado and thunderstorm warnings... Instead I'll write a huge mega post after supper with some question answers, and the tape test verdict. Aha, sorry for any inconveniences!

thanks for the update!! really glad you're so dedicated to this project and able to help out

No problem man. I hate it when you don't get a text back, so I can only imagine the same for some Q&A stuff on a forum. I've also had a lot of help from a large number of people who gave me their undivided time and attention, so it's only fair if I pay it forward. Plus I just love to talk about it. (By the way, if any of those people see me giving terrible advice, call me out on it. I'd hate to be confusing an issue even more)

ALRIGHT, so I think I'll start with these EXCESSIVE tape test results. So here we go! All of the test pieces pressed flawlessly. I pressed them at 60psi for 6 hours to get relatively similar results to what happens during a real pressing.

Here's how the sheet came out:



I applied an even coat of release wax to the entire sheet just like my cassette, then applied a dime sized drop of epoxy to the taped face of each test piece. Then to begin the test I just hand peeled each piece from the sheet. If I had some instrument to give me some form of solid numbers from the test, I would have used it, but I don't... So a calibrated feel (lol) would have to suffice.

I'll give a quick writeup on each test piece, how it peeled from the sheet, and how the tape peeled from the piece. I'll move in order from left to right.

Vinyl Application Tape:



This was the 'hatched' version of what most people seem to recommend for masking off bases and topsheets. I was immediately concerned when I went to peel the test piece from the aluminium. The test piece peeled right off the tape, and the tape was stuck to the cassette and hard to remove. It seems to be a poor candidate for my wanted application because I need it to lift off with the ski (the cassette can be hard to clean tape off off) and the tape's adhesive need's to hold the ski base in place firmly while pressing.

Gorilla Tape:



The gorilla tape is like an alternative to duct tape I guess. I was very skeptical of it going in to the test. It peeled off with the epoxy still stuck to it which is expected. When I peeled the tape off of the test piece I was very impressed. The gorilla tape seemed to be a little hard to pull off with it's strong adhesive quality, but it seems more tear resistant than any other piece. And if it does tear it's easy to lift up to keep peeling away. It also left a little piece of residue, but the residue rolled off with my finger easily. A promising prospect.

Green Painting Tape:



The green masking tape peeled off the test piece very well. It seemed to evacuate epoxy from underneath it very well. However when peeling the tape from the test piece, it was pretty brittle, and ripped very easily yet wasn't adhering to the base particularly well either.. Would be frustrating to remove from the ski post pressing.

Clear Duct Tape:



This was the tape I was most interested in trying. I was very surprised when I lifted the test piece from the aluminium. The epoxy stuck to the tape as it came off, then it just sort of flopped itself away from the tape (you can see it in the picture) Pretty promising idea to have no epoxy on the tape when peeling the tape away, and have it come off the cassette at the same time. The tape peeled from the base pretty well, but when it did tear, it left an ugly tear that was hard to re-start. Since it's clear you can also see through it and the topsheet when doing the layup to check for any mis-alignment issues
before the skis are loaded into the press which is also a nice benefit.

'HD' Packing Tape:



The 'HD' version of the tape used by quite a few builders as I understand. It seemed to evacuate the most epoxy out of all the tapes. It peeled off of the aluminium very well. The tape being the 'HD' version (which I expected to be a pricer, BS marketing deal) actually seemed to be quite stretchy and pliable unlike the packing tape I used for the original pressing. It's also clear which once again, is nice to be able to check everything with the topsheet on the layup one last time. It's one of the cheaper tapes to!

Post Test Pic:



Verdict:

After logically tossing around some pros and cons, I've decided to use the gorilla tape on the base material, as it will see the most epoxy, and has to adhere to the base very well. I've also decided to try the 'HD' packing tape on the topsheet as it's pretty easy to remove, and is pliable when removing. And I still get that last chance to see into the ski before it get's pressed to check for alignment. The duct tape was very close to replacing the packing tape for the topsheet, but it just wasn't as workable in the end.

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Ok, Im gonna try and answer some of the questions too.

I used a vacuum setup for the 3 pairs I built so far. I always put my whole mold into the bag. Seems a lot easier to me. As far as I know, it shouldn't be too hard to find a rather cheap vacuum bag. Usually its not a bag, but some kind of tube. Its so much easier to seal just the 2 sides of the tube.

Now regarding the pump. I don't know if the prices are that different in the US, but here in Europe you can get cheap pumps off of ebay. The pumps dont even need to be that strong. You just need to a chieve a vacuum of about -0,6 to -0,8 bar. This is about a vacuum of 75% or around -10psi or an absolute pressure of about 250mbar.
In Germany you can find pumps that achieve a vacuum like this for about 50€ (probably even cheaper).

Now, regarding materials:
You will probably find all the stuff in the shops ninetyfour posted (if you are somehow located in europe, www.skibaumarkt.de is a good address to look at).

I used ashen cores for my skis, although a lot of other wood works just fine too. You can always check what kind of wood ski companies use, cant be too wrong if you use similar stuff xD
I also didnt use any sidewalls, I just "made" my sidewalls out of wood from the core and topped it off with some epoxy to make it waterproof. Its simpler than adding abs sidewalls and works out pretty good too.

If you by any chance speak german and have fun reading endless threads, I can recommend you this thread here: http://www.freeskiers.net/community/showthread.php?2492-Ski-selbst-bauen-Alle-Infos-Tipps-und-Tricks thats where I learned more or less everything I know from.

And I dont know if I would dare to make park skis as my forst self-build pair. It seems like such a waste, park skis are usually way cheaper than pow skis and break so much faster. I would hate to see my self-build skis getting wrecked on rails and boxes. But I guess thats your choice :P

Cheap vacuum bags???? i found one for the right size for $600... i dont know if that was something else but if you have a site or where you got yours that would be really helpful. also i was wondering about this >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jzj-vTH9G4 seems like they are using a plastic film or something i just dont know how that works

I found a link from a ski builders.com forum to a bag for around 100$, I will try and find it later

After watching that video^ all the way through, Why didn't they put the bag around the wooden mold? it seems like it would make the skis hold the desired shape better and just make more sense to lift the wooden shape plug (is that what it is called?) and slip the bag over the whole assembly rather than tape a sheet over the ski.

found it

Anybody ever heard of modifying a compressor to have a door and putting a vacuum bag in it? Greater than 1 atm pressure, and a slight chance of blowing your house into space.

Hey so I am constructing two completely new pairs in late july/ early august (I'm currently away from home and my press for an internship). I am making them for my brother and his fiancee as a wedding gift because they are getting married this fall. Unfortunately, my brother is my graphic designer, and I am trying to keep this a surprise. So I was hoping an artistic person on this site (who is familiar with illustrator software) could help me come up with sweet designs! I am looking for two unique designs cause I think matching graphics would be a bit tacky. I know this is a long shot to begin with, but I was also hoping that someone could do this for free (or at least a very small sum of money). Think of it as an art project!

@Zoidberg, Yeah I know a guy who does this actually. His name is Rnordell on www.skibuilders.com and it's heated to, so a fully functioning autoclave. I don't think it was a compressor at any point though, and was always intended to be a cylindrical autoclave. I don't think he build it either.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.331864610189758.73382.329972093712343&type=1

There's a link to his FB gallery though. Pretty cool setup.

@Max..., Try giving gavinrudy a PM. I hate to be flooding and redirecting stuff to him (sorry man!) but his drawing's are phenomenal and he works in illustrator I believe.

I only know german sites, but this is where I got mine:
http://shop1.r-g.de/4DCGI/ezshop?action=direktanzeige&artikelnummer=390165&fromaction=showpage&ButtonName=Vacuum%20technic&Beschriftung=&WorldNr=1&suchbegriff_1=Vacuum%20technic&suchbegriff_2=Foils&suchbegriff_3=&suchbegriff_4=&suchbegriff_5=&suchbegriff_6=&suchbegriff_7=&sKontaktID=2928668&sKontaktKEY=TQg0uhPJJbZQB1kMMwODlOYXIAqI3C&sTICKCOUNT=71992120


(long link, but should lead you directly to the vacuum bag)

Here is the whole shop (english language, you need to look under "Vacuum technic")
http://www.r-g.de/en/

MIght even be worth importing if you really have to play 100$ to get a bag.... (cant really believe that though)

which one would you suggest (size). as you can see im quite the novice. thanks for the info though

how do you find out the camber and tip and tail height of a ski. are you supposed to just make it up. if so can i have a suggestion. BTW im 5'4 looking to make 150 cm skis thanks

2ft by 6ft but I have not bought one, I am still figuring out how I want to do it.

Well thats kinda the fun part in making your OWN skis. You can chose how they are going to look, what size they will be, the sidecut, tip/tail rocker and so on. I mean for your first pair, you can always look at a ski you always liked, check the details of the ski and try to copy them. You need to do a lot of thinking yourself anyway, since you have to decide how you want to plane your core, if you want to use only glass fiber (or add some other stuff like carbon) and so on.

For my first pair, I tried to chose similar specs as the line opus (regarding lenght, sidecut, tip and tail width) and then looked at my coreupt bangers for ideas on how to do the tips tails (concerning the rocker).

thanks! i was just wondering whats a reasonable camber because the skis im looking at (armada coda) dont seem to have this info