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Getting started in the backcountry

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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100

I'm making the move out to the Tahoe area and I am really excited to finally familiarize myself with backcountry riding.  Being from Minnesota, I have absolutely zero experience riding out of bounds/BC terrain.  I am just wondering if there are any good resources to get me started on all aspects of riding big mountain/backcountry terrain. 

Specifically, avalanche awareness, necessary equiptment (and price tag, I'm not Bill Gates), and any other tips you may have.  Any advice is greatly appreciated!  Calling all haters, I'm better than you. Find somewhere else to direct your anger.

Oct 19 2011 12:40PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
equipment: beacon, shovel, probe, and a buddy to ride with.

take a class from a tahoe local.
Oct 19 2011 12:47PM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
Steps, In this order.

1.  take this class http://www.alpineskills.com/avalanche1.html
2.  Get BC gear aka Beacon, shovel, probe.(might need for class)
3. Buy used skins, skis, and poles/pack
4.  Post here in regionals or on TGR's tahoe thread and be super excited and ask lots of questions from whoever is nice enough to let you tag along.  Also, bring them beer, lots of it.


That's how you get started/into the bc.

Why are you so adamant about getting into the BC?  Don't get me wrong dude I love tahoe's bc offerings but if this is your first season you will have plenty of fun exploring the resorts coming from Minnesota.  Where are you looking to buy a pass?
Oct 19 2011 12:50PM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100

I'm going to buy the Squaw/Alpine bronze pass.  Don't get me wrong, I am going to definitely get my days in at each resort.  Backcountry riding seems like it would be the best option on the weekends when lift lines are, from what I have heard, upwards of an hour long. 

I am just looking to push my limits as much as possible and I think BC riding is part of that equation. 

Oct 19 2011 12:57PM
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greenman
Posts: 945 - Karma: 27
right on. being from new york i would love to do this someday. stupid college
Oct 19 2011 1:02PM
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Melvs
Posts: 15174 - Karma: 480
Alpine is a great place to work into it via the sidecountry and open boundaries but def listen to Karma Police... ASI has a pretty good avy 1 class, you have to have the basic beacon shovel probe setup (and know how to use them quickly) and of course just don't go riding alone out of bounds... ever.
Oct 19 2011 1:09PM
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SteezoSaurus
Posts: 2630 - Karma: 2,670
Definitely a smart call. Lines get huuge down in Tahoe.

As mentioned, you will need to get a beacon/shovel/probe. You can find them used on Ebay or on Craigslist for fairly cheap.
The next step will be to do some research online and find an avalanche class that is has a certified AIARE instructor.
The link below may be a good place to start:

http://avtraining.org/Avalanche-Training-Courses/AIARE-Level-3.html

In any of these classes you will learn important skills such as how to travel safely with a partner in the backcountry, and how to use your beacon as well. They will also dig a pit and give you a thorough rundown of what to look for.
Oct 19 2011 1:24PM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100

I would never ride alone out there.  That is idiotic.  I have watched enough ski movies in my day to know that ;)

How important are skins for the area?  If I don't need to tour I would rather not, just because I don't have the funds really to afford a whole new setup.  Unless I end up working at a shop and get the proform hookup.

Oct 19 2011 1:31PM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
At squaw?  Yes, at other resorts?  Depends.

But with the new alpine squaw merger those two resorts are gonna take a beating.  So stoked to ski kirkwood this year!

Also you linked him to an avi level 3 cert course.  Dudes not guiding in Alaska.
Oct 19 2011 2:13PM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100
Not yet...
Oct 19 2011 2:21PM
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howlongcanausern
Posts: 4982 - Karma: 1,737
backcountry gear and touring go hand in hand, imho
Oct 19 2011 2:34PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
in a lot of places in tahoe, you can probably get away without having it.... buttt for the price of getting a decent pair of snowshoes, you can get trekkers and skins for the same price if you look around online.


everything else has pretty much been said already. i don't want to downplay the importance of any knowledge and how careful you are, but tahoe doesn't have nearly the avy danger of other places such as CO. that said, treat them the same, it's your and your parter(s) lives at stake..




I suggest getting these two books and reading them religiously:

Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills

BAckcountry Skiing: Skills for touring and ski mountaineering
Oct 19 2011 2:43PM
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dan4060
Posts: 1458 - Karma: 847

You are smart to go Squaw/Alpine.  Those mountains are insane.  The folks here are correct about sking the resort first.  There is an incredible amount of inbounds steep terrain at those spots.  You will not be bored by the inbounds stuff.

As ofthers have said, be VERY careful.  It takes a whole lot to learn to read snow, I lived in Tahoe for 5 winters, during my last year of college and then before grad school, and I never really got into the BC stuff.  I had some buddies who did, and I would sometimes accompany them, but I usuallly went in the spring, when things are safer.

When I lived in Tahoe, the lines were not usually THAT bad on weekends.  I think the difference is the cheap Squaw passes they now have.  When I was there, the 'deal' was paying like 1,250 in July, otherwise the pass was around 1,600.  That kept people away.  A couple of years, I worked nights during the week, and Sat/Sun.  Those years I bought a midweek, and skied Mon-Fri, avoiding the crowds.  I have heard from people that the cheap passes have really mad Squaw more crowded.  I guess be careful what you wish for.

Oct 19 2011 2:44PM
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SteezoSaurus
Posts: 2630 - Karma: 2,670
My bad. Either way though there is great info on that site somewhere. You can get your Level 1 or just do an informative non certification course. That would be a good way to go.
Oct 19 2011 2:49PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
Look into Sugar Bowl too. Such an underrated resort and it has some of the best BC access you could ask for.
Oct 19 2011 2:50PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
wait, never mind. sugar bowl sucks. don't go there.
Oct 19 2011 2:50PM
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SFBv420.0
Posts: 2539 - Karma: 3,124

best thing you can have is good partners

everything you can do to be a good partner do it

people learn in different ways

havin taken avvy 1 means little to me in a partner solid beacon and 1st aid skills matter more to me

the more you bring to the table the easier it is to find good partners

safety 1st and often bro

Oct 19 2011 2:50PM
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SSteezle
Posts: 9300 - Karma: 7,703
i'm not very familiar with the area but like someone else mentioned, touring and getting into the BC kind of go hand in hand. Your only other options are to find a pass that you can shuttle/hitch or go the snowshoe route (which i highly suggest you don't). Snowshoeing is slower, plus you have to carry your skis on your back which can be real tough while trying to fit everything else (lunch, extra gloves, extra goggles, shovel, probe, etc.)

My suggestion is to get a pair of trekkers and put them on one of your pow setups so that you don't have to spend the 300 on good touring bindings. From my experience you really don't want to use trekkers with looks or rossis, but they work really well with markers. As for skins, i suggest black diamond which you can pick up for 120 or so. It's expensive to get into it but once you get all the gear the rest is free.
Oct 19 2011 2:57PM
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AlfIsMoney
Posts: 10 - Karma: 42
Skins and a touring binding are going to be essential, you won't have fun without them.

If you're taking a good avy course they won't let you use trekkers, they're heavy and extremely unreliable. The stack height on trekkers (distance between your foot and the ski) is too tall to easily go through switchbacks, which can be a bitch once things get steeper and you're on sun-baked terrain. Additionally, you're stuck with two points of failure that can send one ski 1000 feet down the mountain, which does happen and is very bad. That doesn't account for how badly built the things are, you never see them in the wild without duct tape or homemade wiring holding them together when screws fall out of them.

If you're serious about hiking, pick up a Fritchi or an MFD plate with the right screw pattern for one of your current bindings and have a shop mount them for you. You'll avoid the ice issues that are inevitable with Markers on wet snow as it jams in under your feet and you won't have to chip it away with your ski pole while your partner sits around watching for 20 minutes. If you're in it purely for jibbing, go with the MFD plate and put a real clamper on it.

I used my Fritchi setup for about 5 days, sold everything I had, and got Dynafits with a set of Dalbello boots for here in the Wasatch. Best thing I've toured on personally but I'm only in it for the pow.
Oct 19 2011 5:26PM
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SSteezle
Posts: 9300 - Karma: 7,703
i'd like to see some avy courses that won't let you use trekkers. I understand what you're saying and i've obviously hear it before but i'm gonna have to disagree with you. Like I said, trekkers work better with certain bindings. I use marker schizos for easy binding adjustments in the BC for when i'm hitting a booter or just skiing a line. Trekkers work VERY well with markers. The main reason why trekkers fall apart on people is because they never tighten the screws, if you tighten the screws once every couple times out there will be no problems (just keep a philips in your pack). I've toured 50 plus times with my trekkers and have had no problems. Take the time to set them up perfect and they should never eject.

As for their performance, I started off with dukes and later decided to go with trekkers. If you know how to skin, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to take the same route as people with other touring setups. I've tried the MFD plates and i'm not a fan, they're quite heavy and elevate you from your ski a bit too much for my liking.

If i were to go any other way I'd just go with the dynafits, i think a lot of people underestimate how solid they are. Plus they're super efficient which makes for more runs and more faceshots, which is ultimately what really matters!
Oct 19 2011 5:47PM
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gretzels
Posts: 170 - Karma: 339
^ Interesting to hear from someone who prefers trekkers!! A fresh perspective :)
I transitioned the other direction (started with trekkers, now have dukes). However, he's definitely right that trekkers are much more compatible with some bindings.

DO NOT use trekkers with anything of the PX variety! (Look/Rossi). I have tried it and the trekker pops out of the toe piece all the time, especially on switchbacks (as stated above). Messed with the adjustment a lot and had no luck.
That said, I tried them with STH 16's and had a much better experience.

I think trekkers are a fine alternative for those who don't want to completely commit to the expense and weight of an AT binding on their everyday/in bounds set up.

Also, to the OP: enjoy your season in Tahoe man! Everyone has given you some great advice, but I cannot stress the importance of having a good crew out there. 3 is a good number. Try to network and meet some experienced people who will take you under their wing. Developing wise decision-making skills in the backcountry is an ongoing process. It's good to pay attention to other people's styles/risk tolerances so you can decide what you are comfortable with.
Oct 19 2011 6:35PM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
I don't, I just know how expensive a dynafit set up is(boots that I can ride in).  I have a hard time justifying a dynafit setup for tours less than 2 hours especially when I ski a lot of resort and slack country shit that doesn't require the multi hour tours not buying a used duke for 200 bucks or less.
Oct 19 2011 6:42PM
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250r
Posts: 2276 - Karma: 1,013
if you want good light dynafit like bindings, check out plum guide bindings, same design as dynafit, just as light, but built way sturdier. and im planning on putting mfds on my new bibby pros, when you said they were too heavy, was it just for touring and hiking that bothered you, or was it enough weight to feel a difference in your actual skiing?
Oct 19 2011 6:53PM
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nomensteven
Posts: 4 - Karma: 105
Step 1: Read
Book 1- http://www.amazon.com/Staying-Alive-Avalanche-Terrain-Tremper/dp/1594850844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319064697&sr=8-1
Book 2- http://www.amazon.com/Backcountry-Skiing-Touring-Mountaineering-Mountaineers/dp/1594850380/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

Step 2: Take an avalanche course (AST 1 in Canada, Avy 1 in US)

Step 3: Take a first aid course (the longer the better, an 80 hour wilderness course is preferable but take what you can afford both time an money wise). First aid skills in the backcountry is arguably more important then avalanche skills depending on where you are.

Step 4: Learn to love low-angle dense tree skiing since for the first while you will want to air on the side of caution during a lot of conditions.

Step 5: Find a knowledgeable partner with a similar level of risk tolerance to teach you. (Note that I said knowledgeable not experienced, I have met plenty of ticking time bombs who have lots of experience but just haven't been caught yet).
Oct 19 2011 6:55PM
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Rachy
Posts: 4355 - Karma: 2,761
Yeah, lots of good advice....

aside from all of that. You are likely already in shape, but if you aren't in tahoe yet, start running hills asap. being fit in Minnesota and being fit at 9000 feet are very very different things (I moved from MN to LA to Mammoth). So yeah, run up lots of hills. If you are anywhere around Minneapolis and can go run in Stillwater, do it. Otherwise Burnsville is unnecessarily hilly as is west Bloomington. If you are up by Duluth, then you're lucky cause you can get up to like 3k feet there and do hills.

I can not stress this enough. The elevation will kick your ass. Once you are in town, start doing some simple jogs and what not until you know you can do some endurance stuff.
Oct 19 2011 7:22PM
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SSteezle
Posts: 9300 - Karma: 7,703
im satisfied with my trekkers for now, but i will keep that in mind for the future. As karmapolice mentioned, getting dynafits does come at a high cost.

when i said they're too heavy, i just meant that they felt slightly heavier than the average ski setup. They felt a bit heavier than my previous small dukes but i'm sure that you can look it up online and figure out the actual weight of each binding. Not a huge deal, also you need to factor-in that the MFDs are for people looking to charge hard, and the dukes are realistically just a plastic binding that tend to fall apart if you push them too hard. If you're gonna be doing some pretty burly lines/drops and want them to hold up i say go for it!

Also like gretzels mentioned, please don't ever try using the trekkers with a px style binding, this is where the term "day wreckers" originated
Oct 19 2011 7:25PM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
I'm sorry but I disagree to an extent.  Tahoe is low in elevation(comparable to places I've skied and hiked).  If you're touring Loveland/a basin area yes, you need to get in better shape than just being in shape because of the elevation.  Her point about being in shape in general is very valid as touring isn't like ice skating but if you're living in SLT you should be pretty fine unless you plan on scaling shasta or some other higher elevation peaks your first year out.

Mammoth is a lot higher than most places in Tahoe by a lot, but I'm sure you already knew that.
Oct 19 2011 7:38PM
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-PowAir-
Posts: 646 - Karma: 30
Seth Morrison Uses Trekkers, I've seen it! (Anthracite Range Crested Butte)
Oct 20 2011 12:39AM
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Pool.
Posts: 2820 - Karma: 662
threads because im basically doing the same thing this season in the same place
Oct 20 2011 1:53AM
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Rachy
Posts: 4355 - Karma: 2,761
Wait... so you're saying moving from 0 feet to 6000 feet and ski touring between 6k and 9k (up to 13k if he makes awesome friends and is mobile... such as mt. tom - I really want to do that one this year = 7k vertical) isn't going to slow him down at all? Cause.... going from sea level to 6600 feet 3 times a week when I was an instructor at Mt. High slowed me down quite a bit.

And yeah, I know the elevation differences, but our most popular hiking/touring area hits around 9500 which is in scope with Tahoe, and even after living here for so long, I still feel out of shape the first few times.

Altitude is a bitch and everyone reacts to it differently. Thinking it won't make a difference is a worse idea than preparing for it to make a difference.


Oct 20 2011 5:13AM
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Sharpy
Posts: 7596 - Karma: 19
Get educated and stay safe. Lots of people die from not being properly equipped, trained, and/or educated for avalanche terrain.

Best thing you can do is become aware of how little you know. Snow sense involves the synthesis of a ton of information from a bunch of different factors and you will need to develop the skills to identify important and interpret information and how to put it all together.
Oct 20 2011 7:30AM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
LOL, just because Tahoe doesn't have the elevation of Colorado doesn't mean you shouldn't be in shape, acclimate yourself, and hydrate yourself before going full throttle in the BC.

Hydration is the most important part of acclimating yourself to elevation. I live at 5000ft and last time I went touring I started at 9,500, went up to about 11,000, built a jump and couldn't hit it more than a couple times because my head would spin every time I tried to drop in. Definitely because I was dehydrated.
Oct 20 2011 10:25AM
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UncleGerry
Posts: 1291 - Karma: 1,378
Dan, I'll just take you to hit the biggest shit ever. It'll be all good!
Oct 20 2011 10:51AM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
I'm not saying it's not especially anything above 10k.  I just think people over exaggerate altitude, especially in tahoe because most of the stuff is below the above 10k.  It's the same shit as people saying I got so drunk because of the altitude, yeah it affects you a little but you're not gonna get black out after one or two beers because of it.  Point is the dude needs to be in shape regardless and I consider all the things you mentioned for getting in "altitude" shape just getting into ski shape.  I guess I was splitting hairs.  Maaaaah bad
Oct 20 2011 11:27AM
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YoungJah
Posts: 1106 - Karma: 66
There are many ways to learn. Some individuals prefer to learn by doing the level 1, some prefer to learn by reading, some prefer to learn from an experience partner, some prefer hands on experience in the field.


Oct 20 2011 11:57AM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100

My Tahoe friends are way smarter than all of you...

just kidding thanks everyone for the input.  Much appreciated!  Still gotta figure out this gnar thing.

Oct 20 2011 12:01PM
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K.C.Deane
Posts: 1730 - Karma: 315
In addition to all that info, I check this EVERY DAY. The more informed you are the safer you will be.

http://www.sierraavalanchecenter.org/


Oct 20 2011 12:11PM
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finnafuckyobitch
Posts: 1647 - Karma: 864
thredz
Oct 20 2011 1:25PM
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DubV134
Posts: 1541 - Karma: 690
im in the same situation and was pointed in a good direction from a couple cool people. there are lots of good books, Snow Sense was recommended to me. Most regions will regularly post an official backcountry condition reports, something to pay close attention to if your not going out everyday.


tech tips, some of them are obvious but others are legit:

found G3's on sale:
Oct 20 2011 1:54PM
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YoungJah
Posts: 1106 - Karma: 66
www.avalanchesafety.blogspot.com, is probably a bit irrelevant, but there is some good in-death reading about terrain observation, types of instability and using the public avalanche bulletin.

Resistation is required to use these free learning resources.
Snowpack: www.meted.ucar.edu/afwa/snowpack
Weather: www.meted.ucar.edu/afwa/avalanche/index.htm
Oct 20 2011 2:52PM
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Karma_Police
Posts: 2655 - Karma: 1,628
Just remember you won't ever be as good as me.
Oct 20 2011 2:55PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21083 - Karma: 8,455
until you've stopped midline in a chute to take a piss with some stranger waiting to drop in at the top, you will never know the true meaning of gnar.
Oct 20 2011 3:18PM
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Thrash
Posts: 821 - Karma: 9
Yes, sugar bowl sucks... Definately shouldn't go there...
Oct 21 2011 6:42PM
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D-40
Posts: 6050 - Karma: 100
Things I have learned;
1. Make sure to iHop avalanche conditions every day.
2. Don't go out without a healthy dose of Bacon.
3. If you go out by yourself you will die.

Thanks guys this can die now.
Oct 22 2011 1:05PM
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jon@wh2o
Posts: 314 - Karma: 158
Don't buy used avi gear. would you buy brakes for you car that some random has discarded and is selling online?
It's something your life coud rely on. Find other ways to save a couple bycks.
Oct 22 2011 7:37PM
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SSteezle
Posts: 9300 - Karma: 7,703
I'm gonna disagree with you on this. You can test out your beacon to make sure that it works I don't see the problem buying it used
Oct 22 2011 7:52PM
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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
You will probably need one of these:

http://www.besportier.com/archives/avalanche-backpack-airbag-mystery-ranch-blackjack-has-got-you-lungs-back.jpg
Oct 22 2011 8:20PM
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jon@wh2o
Posts: 314 - Karma: 158
Unless you take it to a dealer, most of the testing done at home on beacons can't fully prove reliability. A probe or shovel is different, but still a worthwhile investment.
Oct 22 2011 11:37PM
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rockyhockey11187
Posts: 1041 - Karma: 15
the only thing you have to worry about with elevation is proper acclimatization. also some people aren't affected at all by altitudes. 9,000 feet is high but not hat high and the areas where you will actually be skiing will most likely not go over 9,500 at the most. also age is a critical factor in acclimatization and how well you can perform at altitude.
Oct 22 2011 11:59PM
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squawshredder
Posts: 129 - Karma: 15
this. I check it every day, even when im not skiing. It just helps you become more familiar with the snowpack, to the point where I can come to tahoe after spending a week in the bay, dig a pit and identify the layers I read about during the week

also you can pm me if you wanna go touring, I have avi 1, first aid, search and rescue experience, etc and am always looking to get into the bc more
Oct 23 2011 12:39PM
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