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The 180 degree rule.

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Downtofilm
Posts: 6896 - Karma: 20,395
Hey M&A,
just wondering, what are your opinions on the 180 degree rule in skiing?
Is it necessary to follow in skiing? I have noticed when I shoot angle A then shoot angle B I always like it being on the other side ie; I shoot angle A from left side of take off then angle B from right side of landing. One of my friends was telling me how it was the only rule I could not break in film making and I was wondering if it applies to skiing.

http://www.vimeo.com/2690589

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_degree_rule

Thanks.
Aug 12 2011 8:15PM
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blatt
Posts: 5584 - Karma: 3,097
K this is the real 180 degree rule. I would always get confused when people would say 180 degree rule refers to having shutter speed @ double the frame rate haha.

I think when doing double takes with skiing, It best to have both angles be greater than 100 degrees apart from eachother in relation to the subject (skier), or at least that's my own personal rule of thumb when plotting double takes. I follow 180 degree rule not necesarilly to prevent confusing the viewer, but more to just show any given trick from say take off to landing. Doing a double take when shot A and B are only 90 degrees apart looks dumb in my opinion, just keep it on one shot in that case.
Aug 12 2011 9:57PM
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eheath
Posts: 61604 - Karma: 123,113
Honestly, it doesn't matter with skiing. It matters with two subject because if you don't follow the continuity line, then one subject will be looking on way and the other subject will be looking another way and it wont appear that they are looking at each other. When it comes to narratives and such, the "180 rule" or the continuity line as its usually referred to is very important, but with skiing, not so much, since its one subject in a scene, not two or more subjects interacting.
Aug 12 2011 10:27PM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
I try to follow it as much as possible. It's not essential but it bugs the fuck out of me when its too harsh...like between 150-180.
Aug 12 2011 11:27PM
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I.B
Posts: 8137 - Karma: 24,353
Only reason I come to M&A (other then to check out sick shit) is for when i feel really smart. I come here and get more confused then ever.
Aug 12 2011 11:36PM
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blatt
Posts: 5584 - Karma: 3,097
http://vimeo.com/videoschool

Anything I say that is relatively smart or correct (very rare), I learned off vimeo school.

Or I got bashed for saying/doing stupid shit from our more knowledgable members, especially Landis. It's really a great way to learn
Aug 12 2011 11:43PM
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Downtofilm
Posts: 6896 - Karma: 20,395
like this?

Password is: onehitwonder

Im still confused by this whole thing and im trying to grasp on to it.
Aug 12 2011 11:44PM
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blatt
Posts: 5584 - Karma: 3,097
Seemed pretty textbook to me.
Aug 12 2011 11:47PM
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I.B
Posts: 8137 - Karma: 24,353
I'm so lost
Aug 12 2011 11:56PM
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Dwarftosser1
Posts: 2602 - Karma: 951
This will probably confuse you more haha:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_degree_rule
Aug 12 2011 11:59PM
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Brock.
Posts: 5698 - Karma: 1,332
If this is a discussion about placement of subjects within the frame and not the 180 shutter rule, then Im not sure how it can apply to skiing.


I think the biggest injustice that is being done in videos is that people do not include the whole trick in the shot. Its ok to have it cut to another angle of the same trick, but the shots that just show the skier flying over the knuckle into the distance really do not flow well, I hate watching it.

Also people need to be less afraid to fill the frame with 50% or more of the subject. I also hate watching shots where the trick is so far into the distance you need to pause and replay it because the skier was to small to even make out what trick he was doing.
Aug 13 2011 2:52AM
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Brock.
Posts: 5698 - Karma: 1,332
Wow, wholly shit that video actually made a lot of sense to me.

It would only really apply if you were trying to cut together shots of the same trick, but they were on different sides of the jump. Its interesting to think about though of where else this could apply in skiing...
Aug 13 2011 2:57AM
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.Max.
Posts: 2930 - Karma: 701
Like eheath said the 180 degree rule applies more to shooting conversations between two people.


You have a line on one side of them. If you bring the camera around a circle to the points where it's at 180 degrees you'll have an ots of one person looking from the left side of the frame to the right side. If you go back towards the other side of the circle you'll have the opposite ots giving the illusion that the two people are looking at each other.

If both subjects are looking from right to left it will look like they're looking at the same subject.

I've never thought about its application to skiing but after seeing your cut up there I actually found myself looking for the subject. He went through the frame from right to left, then came back through from left to right. That doesn't make sense, that should work... I confused myself.
Aug 13 2011 8:45AM
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.spaghetticat.
Posts: 4283 - Karma: 890
sorry this is a noob question for filming

This is to DTF

u said ur a one person filming company? who is filming the other angle?
Aug 13 2011 10:55AM
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JStrathern
Posts: 8747 - Karma: 1,536
Most people who have one camera will have the skier do the same trick twice and film it from different angles
Aug 13 2011 11:36AM
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Downtofilm
Posts: 6896 - Karma: 20,395
This
Aug 13 2011 12:06PM
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eheath
Posts: 61604 - Karma: 123,113
It doesn't matter because there is only one subject, it doesn't matter if the skier is going left to right in the frame then right to left, you physically can't have a continuity line because there is only one point of the line. You can film skiing from the left side then cut to the right side then cut back to the left side and it works perfectly fine.
Aug 13 2011 12:12PM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
yeah see...great shot and everything. but that cut bugs me. i find what does help though is restarting the trick from the second angle. that kind of negates the annoyance of it for me. but again...this is just me. technically theres no real issue
Aug 13 2011 3:08PM
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kalum.ko
Posts: 585 - Karma: 1,672
Threads
Aug 24 2011 1:30AM
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kalum.ko
Posts: 585 - Karma: 1,672
Just trying to unconfuse myself here. Would Zac's two shots not follow the 180 degree rule? And I know eheath says it doesn't matter, but to me it does make sense having your subject leave or go to the same part of the frame as the other shot. I try and think of what Zac's shots would've looked like if they were both on the left side of the take off and it almost seems like itd be fucked. Im lost
Aug 24 2011 1:43AM
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andstuff
Posts: 1118 - Karma: 61
funny you say that... I was going to say that people need to be less afraid of open framing. I like my shots to be 80% mountains/landscapes with a tiny skier in the corner doing his thing. DGAF what trick he's doing.
Aug 24 2011 2:16PM
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DAPSKI
Posts: 414 - Karma: 141
with one skier it not going to matter but if you show the crossing of the line to the other side then your good, so crossing on follow cams would follow the rule or crossing then showing the other angle. thats my understanding.
Aug 24 2011 4:14PM
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andstuff
Posts: 1118 - Karma: 61
The 180 degree rule isn't as important in skiing because it's a given that the subject is always moving in one direction: downhill.

In narrative films on flat ground, it becomes more important because we don't know where the character is moving/facing.
Aug 24 2011 4:19PM
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eheath
Posts: 61604 - Karma: 123,113
this
Aug 24 2011 5:57PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
Depends on your location. I dont want to see some kid on the east coast showing 80% small shitty hills in the background. In places like Alaska, Europe, etc. you can have absolutely breathtaking views in the background, in which case I would agree, make them take up 80% of the frame. I remember you used the picture of Jon on the treblecone jump as a great example of this in a thread a while ago.
Aug 24 2011 6:08PM
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andstuff
Posts: 1118 - Karma: 61
Correct, which is why I hate watching urban or non-scenic skiing in general.
Aug 24 2011 6:48PM
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Troy.
Posts: 5070 - Karma: 12,549
I was lost, but now I'm found. This makes perfect sense, and eHeath's explanation answers it completely. M&A wins again.


So, to get those shots, you have said person do the same trick twice? Wouldn't it be hard to put the clips together?
Aug 24 2011 6:49PM
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eheath
Posts: 61604 - Karma: 123,113
They usually end up doing a similar trick twice and you can put them other pretty easily, its not as hard as you're making it out in your head.
Aug 24 2011 10:17PM
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juicedrummer11
Posts: 1960 - Karma: 1,331
or if you just ski with a bunch of guys that only do a few tricks in general, they do them so well cuz thats all they do and cutting to angles together is absolutely flawless...unless you have sketchy weather thats changing a lot
Sep 1 2011 4:00AM
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