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My personal reason for thinking the reign of the USA is over. From a Canadian.

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tronned
Posts: 1098 - Karma: 790






To me, the decline of the USA has been a somewhat steady decline in the last 20 years but with no clear indication to me of change to come, until recently when the space exploration program has been ended. The fact the space exploration program has been closed is a clear indication of the decline of a super power. In order to be a superpower in this lifetime, it is clear that you need a highly sophisticated space program and while China's space program is rocketing along, NASA is on life support. I have been very grateful my entire life of the steadfast dedication that the USA has shown for its space program as it has truly benefited the entire human race and to me its a alarm to the downfall of a super power when the world's greatest space program has basically been dismantled. The money needed to keep the programs rolling is actually not that much in the sense that military spending is out of control while science and frontier programs suffer but in the current state of affairs, the government has decided that NASA is no longer vital. I understand NASA still operates but with the retirement of the space shuttle and no clear plan for research into a replacement and no plans of space exploration until 2030, where does this leave you? The end of an era.

Agree? disagree? I think about this issue everyday and wonder where does humanity go from here? As Carl Sagan has said many times " Humans need a frontier" and it appears space has now been taken off the table, where do we go from here as a civilization?

Maybe newschoolers isnt a place for a discussion as such, but maybe some of you have some thoughts.
Aug 11 2011 4:23PM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
I am kind of happy we stopped the space shuttle. It was far too expensive for its benefits. With that money NASA could do far better things for the human race.
Aug 11 2011 4:33PM
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Darth_Veeder
Posts: 1054 - Karma: -26
I dont think you need to be exploring space to be a hegemonic power. We can focus on the harms that are actually being experienced in the status-quo, such as global warming, poverty, disease, war, etc.

We dont need to be distracted by "exploring the final frontier." What benefits has the world actually achieved from manned space flight?

Just because you are ending something that people are coming to view as unnecessary, doesn't mean that you aren't a global superpower. Its like taking the gold plated rim's off your super car, it was unnecessary, and removing them doesn't mean that you dont have a ridiculous car (or in this case, country)
Aug 11 2011 4:33PM
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Skavengers303
Posts: 964 - Karma: 192
from my understanding, the are only shutting down the shuttle program, and focusing on new ways of space travel. in the meantime they are still sending robots into space. i may be wrong though
Aug 11 2011 4:35PM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
Most of the technology used was developed in some way because of manned spacecraft....
Aug 11 2011 4:35PM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
used today*
Aug 11 2011 4:36PM
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Ski_the_east01
Posts: 5203 - Karma: 2,306
really dude?

Aug 11 2011 4:37PM
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Darth_Veeder
Posts: 1054 - Karma: -26
Technology used in what? Thats not really a definitive benefit, especially considering that focusing on the technology needed, would have produced it too, the manned spacecraft thing just added another middle step to getting technology.
Aug 11 2011 4:37PM
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.Blake.
Posts: 1911 - Karma: 38
This
Aug 11 2011 4:43PM
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tronned
Posts: 1098 - Karma: 790
without a push to create such technologies required for manned space missions, where would the need come from? Aerospace science is absorbed into almost all other faucets of technology be it with physical material or theory on paper. You would be very surprised on how much modern day technology is propagated from the manned space missions.

NASA and space missions were vital to ground breaking technology and without the need for science to make the "unthinkable" possible, what will we do?

I understand where most of the John Q. Public will say the space missions were not important in a literal sense because its benefits are not directly visible in everyday life but if you think of what they have done on a technology level and human spiritually level, they were indeed priceless.

The feeling that we are not bound to our little mote of dust planet is one of the most important facts of life in the most basic of senses. We are not exempt from the cosmos anymore, we are part of the cosmos and manned missions reiterates this fact.
Aug 11 2011 4:45PM
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Darth_Veeder
Posts: 1054 - Karma: -26
But clearly the technology had a need if it was propagated from the manned space missions. It would be created in another way.

But before spaceflight, people were achieving things still and breaking bounds using science. I think its stupid for us to remove ourselves from the problem that world faces today in order to "break limits."

And why doesn't science focus on other "unthinkable" possibilities like ending world hunger or solving for aids?

And if the technology is so vital, there will be another way to find it without space missions. I think that the missions actually co-opt most of this research, because rather than looking to get it to the public for use, the research is focused on helping a few people get into space. If it weren't for the manned space programs, the people who were researching these things, would have probably researched them anyway, but for everyone's use, not just a few astronauts.

And we can't make ourselves feel like we are exempt from our own planet! We shouldn't be looking to the cosmos when people are dying and fighting for rights in places all over the world.
Aug 11 2011 4:50PM
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vauban08
Posts: 575 - Karma: 119
I wouldn't link success or downfall to a specific thing like the space program. However, every generation needs something big, a goal, something to pursue. For generations, it was the wish to conquer land. After all land had been conquered, things like the human rights, exploration of space, world peace, ... came up. What also kept big nations running lately was, as cynical as it might sound, the Cold War. Since the war has ended and the Berlin Wall has come down, all western nations seem to do is sitting there idly trying to preserve their living standard.

I'm scared of the USA's declining power and influence, but also excited to see how China can handle their way up to become the world's leading nation. Let them have their chance. As unstable and irritating as China might seem to us as people from a different hemisphere, their pursue of happyness is not that different from ours. In the end, they might be a good successor of the USA.
Aug 11 2011 4:52PM
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tronned
Posts: 1098 - Karma: 790
you are indeed right. They are not working on space travel anymore for the most part. They are focusing on unmanned exploration and survey telescopes. While they offer a multitude of information and technology, they dwarf what a manned mission to mars would bring in human kind benefits. Do you get the same feeling of accomplishment with robots being sent to survey Terrestrial worlds as you would with knowing a man has a boot print on the surface of that rocky planet. The benefits of our astronauts touching the moon has changed the mind of humans forever, while the mars rovers being a great success do not have the same effect on the human spirit.
Aug 11 2011 4:53PM
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skiingute
Posts: 630 - Karma: 15

The USA is far from losing it's reign of power. NASA is merely stoping the space shuttle program. That program was designed for the space station's creation. The space station's creation is complete and the shuttle is no longer needed. NASA is now setting it's sights on asteroids and mars, both would be world firsts. America is still the leader in space travel and exploration.

America still is still the worlds leader in military supremacy, still the leader in economic output, and still the leader in many many many other trends.

The Debt crisis is bad but many other countries are sharing the same problems. Hopefully when the dumbass bi-partisan congress can pull their heads out of their asses and see daylight a balanced budget will emurge. Due to Bush's outlandish spending it will take awhile to go down. But in the near future 10-20 years I am confident America will be back finanically were it was during the Clinton administration.

Aug 11 2011 4:55PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
it is obscenely expensive to keep up the space program. It is even more expensive to continue to advance it. It is also rediculously risky somehing like 2% of flights end up in catastrophic failure.

The public hasnt seen any real benefits from the program since the moon landings. All they see are "pretty pictures" from the mars rovers, and the hubble telescope. We are still way, way, way far away from having the capability to have a manned mission to mars and back.

To the general public it just seems too expensive for too little reward.
Aug 11 2011 5:04PM
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tronned
Posts: 1098 - Karma: 790
amazed at the amount of intelligent discussion on the matter of the space program. Very good job guys. Im very impressed.
Aug 11 2011 5:07PM
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cornholio
Posts: 3952 - Karma: 3,057
astronaut ice cream
Aug 11 2011 5:07PM
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Phil-X-
Posts: 7205 - Karma: 14,399
The 2 leading reasons for technological advancements come from 1.) War 2.) The space race and the similar. The bounds of the earth have been nearly totally dominated and now the only things that push us are killing one another and trying to leave the earth.
Aug 11 2011 5:09PM
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ski_monster
Posts: 64 - Karma: 10
what does canada have?
Aug 11 2011 5:11PM
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cornholio
Posts: 3952 - Karma: 3,057
For a country so deep in debt I think cutting the space shuttle program is an easy place to find budget shortfalls. I can't argue that there haven't been benefits from the program and certain technologies are now available because of it, but I have to think if the money was invested differently we'd still be in the same place with less cash thrown in the fire.

If China wants, let them pursue their space program to send a monkey to Jupiter. Let them come up with the ideas and do the development. Then we'll steal it from them, the american way
Aug 11 2011 5:18PM
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cornholio
Posts: 3952 - Karma: 3,057
poutine
Aug 11 2011 5:19PM
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cornholio
Posts: 3952 - Karma: 3,057
and mounties
Aug 11 2011 5:19PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
this is unfortunately, the modern mentality. If there is any risk that people will die and expensive material will be lost...then it isn't worth it.

Back in the 50s when the US military was advancing technologically at arguably it's fastest rate ever, on average the Air Force and Navy lost 1 pilot a week. 7 days, 1 death...all year.

Know why that rate went down to now, when we just about never lose pilots testing aircraft? Because those pilots died. They used the experience and knowledge from those deaths/crashes to improve and move forward.


These days, deaths and crashes usually mean a complete halt to the program. No more progress. And part of that can be blamed on widespread media. Obviously in 1955, if a new jet crashed into the desert floor, no one would really find out about it outside the base/immediate area. Now then entire world would know in 10 minutes.



And you also have to keep in mind that the space shuttle was not nasa. It was just their most visible aspect. NASA is like a tv channel of science research...there is always plenty of stuff going on, but most people only pay attention to the primetime events like shuttle launches.
Aug 11 2011 5:22PM
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KRASHED
Posts: 7803 - Karma: 466
and one Tim Horton's per square kilometer
Aug 11 2011 5:23PM
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Proletariat.
Posts: 1797 - Karma: 45
threads
Aug 11 2011 5:26PM
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skiingute
Posts: 630 - Karma: 15

Nasa Budget: $18.724 billion
Military Budget: $1.03 trillion

Yeah Nasa is fucking pricy!


Click for larger image

Aug 11 2011 5:34PM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
More of just an opinion on the US's hegemonic status than really related to NASA or this thread, but I for one look towards the US stepping out of the spotlight and global leadership role as a good thing for us, at least for a decade or two. Too much energy and time is put towards causes and programs outside our own country and is it is becoming more and more unstable from within, we really need to focus on and confront our issues at home and rebuild or restructure from the inside out.

There seems to be this thought in the US that if we are no longer the world leader or part of a bipolar global leadership that we are going to be reduced to some third world country. Does anyone really think the people of France, Germany, Norway, Sweden and many others really had it rough? So what you lose a little global influence, its much less stress and shit to deal with for the whole nation and allows it to work on itself.

Perhaps we are approaching a time in which we can break the military-industrial (congressional) complex? Maybe I am just getting ahead of myself too though. Either way it is not the end of the world and people need to not see it as such.

/rant
Aug 11 2011 5:39PM
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treemobbin
Posts: 254 - Karma: 17
inb4 Proletariat.
Aug 11 2011 6:00PM
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treemobbin
Posts: 254 - Karma: 17
shit to late didnt see
Aug 11 2011 6:01PM
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Rialb
Posts: 565 - Karma: 154
You win
Aug 11 2011 6:58PM
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cornholio
Posts: 3952 - Karma: 3,057
i don't think we should spend so much money on the military either.

but since $18.724 billion is chump change to you, hand me over a check for 1/100th of that and i'll be happy.
Aug 11 2011 6:59PM
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AWALLRUS.
Posts: 5762 - Karma: 223
MERICA FUCKED THE DOG. NOW THEY HAVE NO MONEY ON TOP OF NOBODY LIKING THEM.
Aug 11 2011 7:04PM
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skiingute
Posts: 630 - Karma: 15

It's not chump change to me. It is chump change compared to the military spending. Our military spending is out of control

Aug 11 2011 7:07PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
what exactly are your thoughts on the matter of space, anyway? Don't think i've ever discussed it with you.
Aug 11 2011 8:20PM
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Blindsurfer
Posts: 2252 - Karma: 2,791
Sparknotes plz
Aug 11 2011 10:03PM
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ohmythugaim
Posts: 1376 - Karma: 130
>superpowers need a space program
>out of all the legit reasons why america sucks and is a shit country, nasa not having a space shuttle is the true reason why america sucks.
Aug 11 2011 10:06PM
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Nufity
Posts: 993 - Karma: 171
Click for larger image
Aug 11 2011 10:11PM
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e.wait
Posts: 869 - Karma: 1,954
I hate to break it to you, but the American way is actually intensive (and expensive) R&D which is then stolen/taken by other nations.
Aug 11 2011 10:30PM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7482 - Karma: 36,051


And to Asian Allen its funny because it's kind of true
Aug 11 2011 10:39PM
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Proletariat.
Posts: 1797 - Karma: 45
I think we are in desperate need of another space race, the technology produced in that time between the Soviets and the USA at that time was exponential. So much use came out of the space race and so much was accomplished, within 58 years we went from the first suborbital rocket in 1945 by the Nazi's to the first man in space 16 years later. Within another 8 we were walking on the moon, by god we should have colonized the Red Planet right now, or at the very least the Soviets/Russians. With the collapse of the USSR the USA had no one to compete with and just sort of sat back and kicked it for a couple of decades.

It was also a shame that the Vietnam War brought NASA to its knees and was really the beginning of the end for any major future space endeavors.
Aug 11 2011 10:48PM
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Campeador
Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227
This is hands-down the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read on this website. And that is saying a lot.
Aug 11 2011 11:42PM
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ECB
Posts: 6991 - Karma: 622
I didn't read anything except this, so someone might have already said this.

My only problem with stopping space mission is what else is out there? Earth is getting overpopulated. What if there was another planet for us to live at? What if new resources were out there, or medicine? We will never know.


Sure, there are economic arguments both ways, but my argument is what are we missing out on?
Aug 11 2011 11:48PM
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Proletariat.
Posts: 1797 - Karma: 45
I meant starting with the first recorded human flight
Aug 11 2011 11:49PM
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Blurst
Posts: 13577 - Karma: 10,169
and why do you say that?
Aug 11 2011 11:50PM
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Stose
Posts: 7109 - Karma: 4,123
well said. also to add to what you said. what about sending people up to fix satelites? we still are sending people up in space. now we are just paying other people to do it for us....
Aug 11 2011 11:57PM
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NickSki.
Posts: 2009 - Karma: 61
hahahhahahahahahahahhahahahah fucking classic ignorant Amercian. HERP DERP DERE IS ODER COUNTRYS IN DA WORLD DERPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP. WE R DA ONLY FREE COUNTRY HERPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Aug 11 2011 11:58PM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
You are correct in saying the technology most likely would have been developed anyway. The space program however accelerated the speed at which this technology was developed. Technology was created at a faster rate during the space age then at any other point in human history (unless you believe the ancient alien theories.) If you do some research you will see that almost everything you use in a day was in one way or another, directly or indirectly, Has been affected or made by the space programs of the USA or USSR.
Aug 11 2011 11:59PM
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ECB
Posts: 6991 - Karma: 622
Exactly!

Without satellites, there goes pretty much all communication technology to a certain extent.

Sure Nasa might or might not have lost money, I'm not here to argue over money. Just to say we could be losing out on a lot
Aug 12 2011 12:01AM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
You sound rather butthurt. Its ok though, we still love you. youre like our autistic little brother.
Aug 12 2011 12:02AM
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ECB
Posts: 6991 - Karma: 622
That's not funny. I work with autistic kids. I joke around a lot on this site, but I never joke about autism. I lost all respect for you. -K
Aug 12 2011 12:04AM
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