About God

Seems like you're arguing/discussing with nobody which is a shame because you're the only one to make interesting posts in this thread.

1. I'm not questioning the power of God. What I'm saying is that the concept of being simultaneously finite and infinite is absurd (self contradictory beyond any possibility). We can assume God is all-powerful and infinite, but if he were to become finite even momentarily (which an all-powerful being surely have the ability to do), then he would no longer be infinite because the two terms are opposing. Furthermore, if God were material for even a moment, then he would no longer be non-material. This is why I say it contradicts itself.

2. You wouldn't kill your dog to discipline it, because there cannot be a positive outcome due to the permanent nature of the punishment. Therefore, killing your dog for punishment cannot be loving in any way because you are not doing it to reach a positive end. I see God the same way; the concept of submitting one to eternal punishment in itself goes against the meaning of love because no positive end can be reached once a person has been damned.

That's what I mean by reciprocating: the dilemma offsets to the opposing theory. It's a lose-lose as far as I can tell. Either God takes away our free will and as a result love is lost, or he grants free will but deliberately allows us to suffer for eternity, in which case him being all-loving is still lost.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying one makes more sense than the other. Both are equally absurd to me, which is just one of the reasons contributing to my beliefs.

Another belief in some doctrines of Christianity is that "hell" isn't actually eternal. Like TWoods said previously, Hell is the absence of God. God's eternal life is a gift, if we choose to not love him, not accept eternal life, and choose to go to hell that is our choice. Also, something to consider: I know that you are looking at it from your perspective, but also consider that he deliberately allows everyone to spend eternity in heaven with him; he doesn't only "punishes those who are bad".

Lets say you are standing beside a door, this door represents heaven. You can't possibly force anyone into it if they don't want to go into it. You can do everything you can but ultimately its their decision. I know its just an analogy, but I think your over-thinking it.

I think youre looking at it from a punishment perspective, instead of looking at it as he just cant simply live with sin. He is perfect, and his kingdom is perfect, and us being sinful means we would sort of mess everything up if we went to heaven (to put it in a weird, other way). Thats why our sin was placed on jesus on the cross, so that we could be perfect and could live in his presence (that is if we chose to). It really is extremely hard to understand, and I dont think any of us are even close to understanding it, but i also feel like that is how it should be, and that is why there has to be faith

1. When God sent his son he became a distinct person. This person, Jesus, became a man with boundaries. I don't why this is so contradictory...
Yes Jesus was infinite, he was with without boundaries, but when he became flesh to the earth he became a man. Like you know, when Jesus came to the earth it's not like there was no God at that time. They were two different people. While we use terms to describe Jesus as finite and God as infinite they are still implying that God does not have the ability to send the son to the earth as a finite human being because its "not possible"
Its difficult to separate the distinction between God and Jesus. God is infinite but Jesus became finite when he came to the earth.

2. You are right. But I wouldn't kill the dog. I would let him do whatever he wants and its his decision. It is when HE dies, not when I kill him that this all matters. I never punished him.
God does not punish us. He does not kill us. He offers us eternal life and all we have do is take it. You can't possibly save someone who doesn't want to be saved?
I know plenty of people believe strongly that the whole point of having faith in God is to not be sent to hell. I wish that it wasn't taught like that... Unfortunately many people are introduced to Christianity like that
I'm only trying to explain your questions to the best of my knowledge, hopefully it offers some answers...

Or rather they are two different "beings" not people...

Next question.

Haha you have a lot of good questions... Well one thing is for sure, God has the power to reach people in ways that we are aware of or not. I know the bible says something about that everyone will have the chance no matter what... And people may learn to now God through their own experiences yet call the same god a different name. Its ultimately up to God, he is the only one who looks directly into peoples hearts.
As for choosing the right religion. Obviously its ultimately up to you and obviously different people will tell you differently.
I think you should continue to pursue the truth. Christianity differs from other religions in that you don't have to work to be saved. Other religions call you to do a certain amount of good deeds and what not. God offers you salvation and he is ready to have a personal loving relationship with you. Don't get me wrong, people are transformed, but people don't have to be "good" or have everything together to come to God. That's my 2 cents.

And if you die before god has the chance to reach you? Is there a certain age that god reaches out to people? By the age of 8, has god reached out to you? 8 year olds murder others in some countries. Is there a "not understand what you are doing" clause that allows these 8 year olds a pass?

You know, all these questions are things you can google and get a lot of different opinions on. If you're honestly curious and not just playing devil's advocate (no pun intended) I'll answer all of them for you from a Catholic viewpoint.

The experiences pointed me in a certain way to think. You see patterns everywhere around you on acid, and you feel nature on shrooms. all about set and setting. but that's not a major part of my life anymore.

I almost wrote out a really long explanation of my views but I'm just going to say that logic and observation of synchronicity (Jung's concept) in my life after spiritual experiences that did not involve drugs (lakota ceremonies), the concept of a fundamental particle, and the idea that the universe is a series of exponentially simple to complex open and closed systems that interact with each other. Think about it, maybe you'll get something different out of that then I did.

No, I totally understand your question now.

So you are right up to the point where you say "allows us to suffer for eternity, in which case him being all-loving is still lost"

You're simply viewing it from the wrong angle. The idea is that He's giving us a choice to suffer or not. His love for us predestines all of us for heaven, but we can choose not to accept that. That's a choice we make in this life. If you chose to turn your back on God, then what you get is the absolute absence of God when you die.

I understand that you can say that he has the power to pull souls out of Hell, and therefore you could say that he's "deliberately allowing us to suffer."

In my opinion (and this is coming from how I see it, I don't know how to describe this from the Church's view precisely) you need to view it as a progression - you deny God in this life, which allows your soul to be taken by evil when you die. If you die without loving God, your soul is left Godless, which is hell... without God being present to accept, your soul is doomed. I don't know if that explains it well.


I'll ask someone about this specifically when I can though, so that maybe it can be explained better.

More precisely described as two different manifestations of one state of being.

Oh, I have my own viewpoints and answers that I believe in.

I guess I don't understand your definition of hell. You make it sound like a passive phenomena where the body and mind (and soul, if you're into that) simply cease to exist after death, or "rot the ground." If that's the case, that almost sounds preferable over some infinite spiritual existence.

I have never heard of Hell as being defined as the absolute absence of God after death. I always understood it as an active punishment for those who reject the path of righteousness. It is my understanding that an all-loving entity would not take away our free will, or allow us to stay behind and be doomed. This is why I find the notion of an all-loving God to be so absurd and contradictory that I dismiss it entirely.

Hell is certainly described as a place where every terrible sensation of pain is felt for eternity, mostly described as a fire or furnace, even reportedly by Jesus. (Matthew).

However, the worst part about it is the lack of God; compared to the how wonderful heaven is to be living in God's presence.

Hell only exists because of the rejection of God by his creation, not some place where you simply cease to exist or some silent black hole of nothing. (sorry if I made it seem that way). That's more the nature of hell, rather than the total experience of hell.

Although the word "punishment" is used to describe hell, I would read that more as something like when you accidently cut yourself chopping food; you're being punished for not paying attention. I know some churches teach it as an active punishment from God, but I'm Catholic, and I believe it's your choice rather than his.

I also think you have to define what you mean by love. We might define love as always doing everything in our power to help someone out. But there's people that I love and don't wish harm on, but aren't friends that I would consider "good" or nice to spend time with. I'd do everything in my power to help them if they came to me for help, of course, but I wouldn't go out of my way if they didn't want any help from me or told me to back off. God gave us a life to live, an opportunity to live a better life following what Jesus taught, and a place to go as a reward after to always live with him. Those are some pretty great things He wants everyone to end up there.

Granted, that's just my view on it.

I think what it comes down to is that if you deny Him, you are turning HIM away, not the other way around.

I understand how you can see souls ending up in hell as a contradiction, but I just see it as an extension of free will, just another choice.

I don't know much about Jung or his theory. I just wikipedia'd it for some background. Sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me... is there something i'm missing here?

Yeah, but it doesn't have to do with this thread and I'm tired so I don't want to write it out. PM me we'll talk about this