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What boot to buy? hot doggers, spk, ft original, ace of spades?

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HarryPotter
Posts: 359 - Karma: 52
Hey,
I am looking for a boot within $200-400 that is a park slayer and also sick in the backcountry and big mountain. I ski park about 60% of the time, the rest I ski with my friend who is obsessed with big mountain and cliffs, so i need a boot that can do both well. Right now I ski on some langes that are pretty bad for both, they are stiff as hell, no forgiveness, and super heavy. I don't want to buy a park specific boot because I feel like it will suck off cliffs and in the backcountry, while a big mountain boot would give me shinbang in the park...

right now i am looking at four boots,

my first choice right now would be the ace of spades, on the nordica website it seems like it is built mostly for park but it is stiff enough for the backcountry, plus the light weight, gel shock absorber and 3-buckle system seem good, so I am pretty interested in this.

my second choice would be the full tilt originals, since they are probably pretty light and a good mix of the park boots and big mountain specific ones, however the website doesn't say exactly what the boots are meant to do, do you think these would be good for both park and all mountain?

my third choice is the full tilt hot doggers, since they seem like a total park slayer, and then I could buy another set of stiffer tongues for big mountain maybe, and then since they have the shock absorption system that could work alright, what do you think?

then spk, looks like a park killer, but seem too soft and flexy for anything else, since they only have two buckles...

What would you reccomend out of these and how are your personal experiences w. them or are there other boots you suggest????

thanks! and +K for replies
Jun 25 2011 10:38AM
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Crispy.
Posts: 6109 - Karma: 7,683
It's hard to recommend you a boot when we don't know the shape of your foot. Go try all of them on.
Jun 25 2011 10:40AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,893
There's really no such thing as a park boot or an all mountain boot or a race boot- there are just boots. And the right boot is the one that matches your foot shape, leg shape, and has the right flex for your ankle's range of motion and your subjective weight.

The reason you hate your Langes is because they are not the right match for you. Tons of park riders ski in that boot (or one similar to it)- but only because it fits them and their biomechanical needs.

You need to sit down with a boot-fitter and find out what the right match is for you, because what will work for someone else will most likely not be the best boot for you (meaning if you hear tons of praise for the SPK, it doesn't mean it will be awesome for you).
Jun 25 2011 10:55AM
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Kreech
Posts: 4178 - Karma: 3,024
^what this guy said. Lot's of people will reccommend spks or full tilts as park boots, just because they've built up that name for themselves. However, if you have a wide foot, full tilts are going to suck NO MATTER WHAT you want to ski. The quality of a boot depends wholeheartedly on how they fit your feet, not all their gimmicks and marketing schemes. If a $20 pair of boots, 3 times used from play it again fit even a bit better than some $800 dalbellos, go with the first pair. I cannot stress enough the importance of a perfect fit in ski boots. The ONLY way to buy boots unless you're an idiot is to get fitted. Cheers.
Jun 25 2011 12:06PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
I feel for the OP. Pretty sure you get the whole fit thing like I do. I had asked a similar question before and got the same responses and it's all stuff I already knew. I think like myself you were looking for someone to say yeah that's a solid boot or steer clear of this one because it has known issues. Just looking for help in a direction right? And that boot fitter solves all problems thing is semi correct but let me tell ya....it isn't the be all end all. I was "fitted" by a reputable "fitter" who put me in boots that I absolutely hated and it turned out ended up being a size too big cause they completely packed out in a bad way after about 2-3 times out. Plus most boots feel perfect in the store and could have issues as soon as ya start making turns or bombin drops. People need to get out of this mentality that fitters know it all and it all depends on which boot feels right for you. Boots are a big investment for some a little help from the community for just a direction would go a long way for some folks. With that said OP, I think you should be lookin at somethin with a flex of 100-110. Spk pro would be good if you have a high volume foot. Plus they pack out quick so make sure those things are super tight in the store. If you have a mid volume foot take a look at the atomic hawx. They have that toe flex which is kinda cool for rails, butters, etc. Full tilts are decent if you have a low volume foot and the interchangeability of flex is nice. But know that the booter accommodates a wider foot than the rest of the line. Also on the solly front, I hear nothin but good things about the ghosts for exactly what your describing that you want them for. They are stiff but I've never heard complaints of shin bang so that's a viable option. At least now you have some direction on some to try on and THEN see what fits.
Jun 25 2011 12:27PM
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cwillygood
Posts: 6831 - Karma: 1,829
you NEED to try them ON!
Jun 25 2011 2:49PM
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monkatizer
Posts: 4704 - Karma: 1,518
WHATEVER THE FUCK FITS!!!!!
Jun 25 2011 9:13PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Yeah dude, totally! If there's some beginners super slop boot that fits jus get it. I'm sure the fitter won't push something like that on ya if he has an overstock of it. Yeah if that beginners super slop boot fits and the fitter says it's the way to go just do it! That's totally how the pros do it too! What a bunch of D-bags.
Jun 25 2011 10:28PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,893
I say what I say because it is the only factual boot information that you can give over the internet. I made my reputation fitting some of the best skiers in the world, and unlike that guy who tried to fit you, I do know what I am talking about. You are correct that you should buy what feels good but this can also lead to problems if that is all you do. A good fitter will do shell volume tests with your foot and find out not only what feels good but what is a good match to your unique foot shape. Your boot fitter did not do this and you have a boot that doesn't work for you.

To say that the OP should try on 100-110 flex boots is a total shot in the dark. You don't know is weight nor his ankle's range of motion- to no fault of yours, i mean how could you know this? We are on the internet giving boot fitting advice to complete strangers. The only good advice you can give someone is to provide general factual guidelines.

OP, you need to sit down with a reputable fitter, try on no more than 5 pairs of boots (you will just get confused, plus if the fitter has done his/her job you won't need to try on more than that) and always spend the maximum amount that you can. There are no better boot brands, just differences in quality between price-points. A $500 Atomic will be a nicer boot than a $300 Salomon, but not because Atomic is always better than Salomon. Typically, a more expensive boot will have nicer plastics, a better fitting liner, and more durable components. Always spend the maximum you can to make sure you are getting these three key elements. The reality is that no one here can tell you which boot will be better for you, we can only provide you with the process for looking for a boot.
Jun 26 2011 8:05AM
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HarryPotter
Posts: 359 - Karma: 52
ok thanks to every body. my weight is 140lbs and i am six feet tall. any reccomendations for the big mountain/park blend I was looking for? and thanks for telling me about the bootfitter, I will definetly seek one now. Any good ones in the Boulder area?
Jun 26 2011 8:47AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,893
Go check out a shop called Larry's Boot Fitting. At the very least, it will be a great start for you
http://www.larrybootfitting.com/
Jun 26 2011 8:52AM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Yeah don't get me wrong. Boot fit is essential and I know there are decent fitters out there. The unfortunate reality though is if you go to a shop that sells nordica and full tilt but the fitter knows you'd be much better in an atomic, do you really think hes goin to send you elsewhere? I think the OPs point was completely missed here. He said thank you and was a good sport about it but what if he already knew all those boots fit great and was just asking which would be better for his style? To say I shouldn't have recommended a 100-110 to an extent your correct but that's also an old school mentality. Let's face it stiffness = better performance. I know light guys skiing 130s and do about 40% park and the big mountain they do ski is very parkesque riding anyway. If he's gonna be out bombin cliffs with his buddy he doesn't want anything less than 100 and honestly I think that may be too soft. But hey it is what it is. Everyones an expert but not necessarily an expert on your type of skiing. Keep that in mind OP. Just because someone's an "expert" if they're an old school mentality skier they will give you horrific advice. Find a fitter who understands the way you ski. Good luck
Jun 26 2011 9:24AM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
There is no way all of these boots fit him great. the spks and ace of spades are wide fit high volume boots. The full tilt ones are narrow and lower volume.
Jun 26 2011 9:53AM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Yeah no duh? I said what if. I was tryin to prove a point. I just hate how taboo the boot thing has become. Let's try a better example. Let's say you tried on a tecnica agent 120 and an atomic hawx 120. They both fit very similarly in the store but ski so different it's like two different boots. Both are 120s. And yes the hawx accommodates a mid volume foot where the agent is low volume but that's not the point. The hawx has those toe flex gills and skis like a 90 flex. It also doesn't have that unforgivingness that a normal 120 has. This could be good for skiers with a surfier style but be horrible for a more hoppy skier. Yet I've seen good fitters barely mention this because the mentality is if it fits that's all that matters. The big thing I've been trying to get across is if someone asks for opinions on boots then yes, first say see a fitter. Consider it a disclaimer. But then go on to say hey if you normally ski a 120 with a low volume foot this boot is a good one to consider but stay away from this one kinda thing. There are some in here who work for or own shops or are reps for companies etc, who have knowledge of upcoming product that the general consumer doesnt. Sometimes it would be nice to hear something like wait till next year because the new ace of spades will have x feature that is getting alot of buzz and so on. Sometimes folks are just asking for a direction and the typical response of go see a fitter is horseshit. You should at least have an idea of what to try on before ever walking into a shop. Unless you trust your fitter like your father because trust me....it's happened to me and I've watched it happen to others at multiple shops. If someone's trying to push a certain boot, all it takes are a few suggestions from someone who's an "expert fitter" and your average moron will make a $700 mistake.
Jun 26 2011 10:23AM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
And to continue, an old acquaintance of mine who was a very good boot fitter once told me, "a good fitter can make ANY boot work for ya if it's the right size." I'm no fitter so I don't know how much truth was in that statement but I've seen him do some pretty amazing things to boots people got off the Internet and made them work for them. Jus sayin
Jun 26 2011 10:26AM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
What you are saying is true but if a boot DOESN'T fit then it is useless. That is why people say go to a boot fitter. And yes, a good bootfitter can make most boots work but they aren't miracle workers. Some times they can't make it work. For example my dad bought a pair of boots that fit in the store great, but once he started skiing they were horrible. They cut off all the circulation in his toes and now he can't feel anything in them because they were damaged by this boot. After his first day skiing them he brought them back to be ground and punched. It did nothing. he had 4 different bootfitters try it and nothing helped.It is better to get a good boot that fits than a good boot that doesn't.
Jun 26 2011 10:51AM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
And that's the same experience I had with a reputable fitter. And honestly I have yet to try on a boot in a store that doesn't feel great in the store. And that's in all types, flexes, and widths. I think the biggest problem here...or the elephant in the room that no ones talking about is that ski boots in general are a crap shoot and that is totally unfair to consumers. They have essentially been the same for a long time with just minor tweaks and adjustments over the years. Whatever company completely redesigns the ski boot from the ground up and solves all this lunacy will be the saviors of skiing. But that will never happen because of the job specialization it creates. Fitters would be outta business so they will never let that happen. Damn shame.
Jun 26 2011 11:03AM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Ya know I was just thinkin about it. I'm in my 30s and have been skiing for over 20yrs. I have lived as a ski bum at major resorts. I've had friends who were reps and fitters etc. I was even sponsored for a while when I was doin bumps. In all that time I cannot say that I have ever....EVER...owned a boot that I was completely happy with. There's a handful of skis I can tell you that were the best thing that ever happened to me as far as skiing. I can tell you about poles I've had that I have landed on with all my weight that didn't even dent. I can tell you about certain outerwear that I just couldn't kill. But I cannot think of a single boot that was perfect. There is something fundamentally wrong with that. For a product that is supposed to be the most important tool in your arsenal and you can't find one single instance if perfection. That's a major problem.
Jun 26 2011 11:13AM
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tall_pants
Posts: 663 - Karma: 446
SPK!!!
Jun 26 2011 12:08PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,893
Unfortunately, boot-fitters don't drive the sale of boots, it's the self-service market that does. Only in the USA, Canada, and UK is boot-fitting a real part of the shopping experience. Most of Europe, which is the main driving force of the ski industry, is self-service boot shopping. It is completely insane. You see these women in size 27s and they are wondering why their ankles and toes hurt...

Jun 26 2011 4:31PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,893
As of right now, a ski boot has one shape to it and every company is trying to design that last to fit as many people as possible. But it is still only one foot shape. And this is the importance to having a good fitter who will not only help find the right shell shape, but also make a good footbed for you and be there to perform the tweaks as necessary. This ultimately boils to down to identifying simple cause and effect patterns. You have a certain result (pain/discomfort) and you attack the cause of it. Bad boot-fitters just band-aid the problem, rather that find the main cause. I understand your frustration, I spent the last 8 years in the trenches fitting boots/feet from all walks of life. I've seen it all. But there are solutions, it's just not all boot-fitters are as good or can figure it out. It's the same with every profession.
Jun 26 2011 4:41PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,493
Actually its not in the boot fitters interest to sell you a boot that is not right for you. Yes they will make money from the intial sale, but if the boot does not fit the customer will be back in to have work done which will take up the boot fitters time and stop them selling other new boots. Most decent shops will have a policy where they will return a badly fitted boot and exchange it for a correct fitting one. So you see a boot fitter will not just sell you any old thing, they want to get you in the best boot for you, at least good boot fitters will. I will always send customers to my competitors shop if we do not have a boot which will work for them
Jun 26 2011 4:53PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Yeah I feel ya...it is frustrating though. And to add injury to insult pretty much every person who has ever measured my feet for fit have all said the same thing....my feet are about as average as they come and by definition should be fine in a boot right out of the box. That's why I don't get why I can never be happy with a set. Somethings gotta change. I've lost three ski friends in two years to snowboarding based only on the boot issue. Granted they weren't hardcore skiers but let's face it, most hardcore skiers have sponsors or hook ups....it's the casual consumer that's payin top dollar. Those are the ones you don't want to lose.
Jun 26 2011 4:57PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,493

Here in whistler we are finding the opposite. Lots of snowboarders are comming back to skiing as the boots have inproved so much since they last skied. 10 years ago even boots were pretty basic but now they are so much better and easier to fit. SB in comparsion are harder to fit when problems arise as they are leather and not plastic so strech and punch work does not really work well on SB boots. I always find it easier to get a good fit with a ski boot rather then a SB boot.

As far as you having average feet and could wear a boot out of teh box is just rubish. For one ski boot manufactuers put really cheap insoles in them as thy expect you to change them to preferably a custom footbed. No one should ever be sold a boot straight off the shelf. Everyone will need a boot fitting it just depends to what degree.

And regarding uncomfy boots in my 22 years of skiing I have only had one uncomfy boot ever and that was just that it was the wrong boot for me but I got a free pair so thought Id try to get them to fit. It really is a myth that boots should or will hurt. If there fitted well once they bed in they will be comfy. Also just to mention if boots feel good in the shop there probably not right for you. The liner will expand around a size in the first 15 hours of use so becuase of this you should feel that the boots are too tight in the shop. Thats why there are allot of bad boot fitters, they sell boots that feel comfy in teh shop to make a sale but ingore teh fact the boots will dwith use.

Jun 26 2011 5:06PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
See I hear ya there but....how come whenever I try on a boot I'm told my toes should be just touching in the front but not mushed up there like toes bent kinda thing? When I put on that size boot it feels great but two runs out they feel too loose? Then if I try a size down and push out the toe to accommodate I'm constantly fighting toe bang and become less aggressive with my skiing to avoid it. Seriously I'm not tryin to be a boot pessimist but it's tough not to. As far as sb goin to skis, I've seen that too but mostly park types. The common response is that skiing is way more tech now than sb in park and they can progress further but your average Joe is goin to sb. More comfy boots, less to carry, and cheaper is typically what ya hear.
Jun 26 2011 5:45PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,493
well if its toe bang thats an issue, thats a support problem. Unless you get a good custom insole which supports the lateral and medial arch, under pressure the foot will extend and become longer. With a correctly stabilised foot bed this will not happen. Yours toes should be touching the end of a new boot when your leg is straight, but ease back a mm or 2 when you lean foward.  I wear a 26 boot but if I wear them without footbeds I will have no toe nails left after a couple of hours. However as you say if I went to a 27 I would be slipping around inside. See there really is no option but finding a good boot fitter, and preferably dont even look at boots before coming into the shop as it will not be a benifit at all.
Jun 26 2011 5:56PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
So then let me ask you this...if I go with a custom footbed, should I go a half size smaller? Like if a 28.5 feels good should I go 28 or even the smaller shell of 27.5?
Jun 26 2011 6:02PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7147 - Karma: 17,493
28.0 and 28.5 will be exactly the same length, you need to go with the shell which is the correct size. This can be worked out by the boot fitter when he doesthe shell checks. Its inpossible to know what size you should be in without having your foot in a shell.
Jun 26 2011 6:46PM
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Kangbang
Posts: 14211 - Karma: 423
Go to a boot fitter!
Jun 26 2011 7:14PM
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BuSkiz
Posts: 2240 - Karma: 65
QFT!
Jun 26 2011 7:16PM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
Also I recommend intuition liners. They will expand to fil in any lose area in the boot or contract where it would be too tight. They also don't really pack out so if it feels the right width and length they will stay that way. They won't be comfortable until heat molded though (in my own experience at least.)
Jun 26 2011 10:49PM
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_Jeffrey_
Posts: 1651 - Karma: 572
if the full tilts fit just swap out different tounges for park and backcountry
Jun 27 2011 3:05AM
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Pipe_Munky
Posts: 10888 - Karma: 2,184
That's why you go to a GOOD shop. I've personally never pushed a boot on a person because I was trying to sell more of them. Skis yes but not boots.

Here's how to find a good bootfitter:

1) ASK AROUND!! nothing is better than "word of mouth" recomendations
2) Look at what they carry! Sorry to say but if they are "core" shop that only carries twins and some powder boards then you're probably in the wrong shop to be looking for boots. Find out where all the racers go! They can be spending upwards of 10 hours a day in boots so they know the good fitters.
3) Talk to the fitters. If you're dealing with some 17 year old kid in a shop for boots then there's a good chance he doesn't know anything other than the same basic knowledge you're going to get off here. Find someone that's been there over 10 years and has some real experiance.

The biggest mistake most park skiers make going into a shop is that they are so hellbent on getting a "park" boot that they're completely closed minded to anything else that a bootfitter will recomend. FYI, there was once a time when SPK's didn't exist and Full Tilts had not been made for 20 years and skiers still got by.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if you're looking for boots, this isn't the best place to look for advice. When people give you the response of "go to a bootfitter" there's a reason for it!

If you get "screwed" by a bootfitter, this isn't the place to come and bitch about a boot brand. Go back to them and get the problem fixed. Any good shop will stand behind the fit of their boots.
Jun 27 2011 9:44AM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Your right. It just sucks though when ya see the boot online for half the price it is in the store ya know. And then if ya do pay full price your rollin the dice that the fitters a good guy. Then if ya wait till the boots go on sale at a shop ya don't always get the same treatment as if you were there buyin em at full list. I dunno. It's a broke system is my main point.
Jun 27 2011 11:13AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,893
Make sure the shop has a boot-fit guarantee. Almost every truly legit shop does. Sure you might pay more for it up front (ie regular price) but you will get the service to back it up for as long as you own the boot. And if the boot doesn't work out, they take it back and start over for you. That is well worth the normal price tag vs buying your boots online.
Jun 27 2011 2:35PM
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HarryPotter
Posts: 359 - Karma: 52
Great, i will for sure check out a boot fitter, Larry's looks like a good place. For all of you in the boulder area do you know if Boulder Ski Deals is a good bootfitter? Their staff doesn't seem too experienced but im not really sure. Also, would a viable option be to go to the bootfitter, say I want to come back, and then buy the boots from the manufacturer (i have an industry pro discount from an employer), or does the bootfitter make molds? sorry i am kind of new to this whole deal, i couldnt afford buying 400 boots sine I was growing too fast but now I've slowed down.

Also, I was thinking about interchanging the tounges on full tilts, do you know if that works well performancewise?

just btw I added karma to everyone, mine has gone way down for some reason...

thanks everyone for the replies, definitely helped my decision making.
Jun 27 2011 9:22PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Depends on how good the discount is and if your real sure of your size but I'd say buy the boots cheap and then pay a fitter to tweak em...though in the long run it may end up workin out to the same price as if ya paid full retail at the fitter and got the work done for free.
Jun 27 2011 9:42PM
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.cam.
Posts: 1852 - Karma: 48
Or you could help out your local shop. Personally I try to do this and you can always talk to the owner about trying to get a deal. I know that at the shops I go to, whenever I ask if they can do a little better on the price they are always willing to come down.
Jun 27 2011 10:08PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Yeah it jus pisses ya off when ya know that like with skis...they pay $150 for an $800 ski...you get hooked up at $700 and they're still makin $550...not sure about boots but I can't imagine it's too different.
Jun 27 2011 10:26PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Oops sorry I let the cat out...now watch my k drop to oblivion lol
Jun 27 2011 10:27PM
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Pipe_Munky
Posts: 10888 - Karma: 2,184
you don't know what it's like with skis if you think margins are that good.
i'm not getting into what stores pay for product but for end of the season sales, a lot of stores are losing money on both skis and boots.
Jun 28 2011 9:55AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,893
hahaha, i wish the margins were that good. normal prices are far from that PGP
Jun 28 2011 1:37PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Well it's less than that to press one...you account for some r&d.....and that's a close enough bottom line....than the gets em for x amount of money which becomes null and void anyway if they get stuck with product....they're told not to sell under a certain price to maintain a certain value to the product but when ya boil it down to brass tacks I'm not far off...like nerdy kid you work at or own a shop right?...what do you pay for your personal skis?....abutbutbbbbutbut....right?...right?...haha
Jun 28 2011 1:48PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Btw....you do know that I'm jokin right?
Jun 28 2011 1:56PM
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Pipe_Munky
Posts: 10888 - Karma: 2,184
take a basic business course and you'll realize that you actually couldn't be further off.

take into account raw materials, r&d, employees, logistics, marketing, etc... and believe me, the cost of doing business in the 21st century is a lot higher than you might think.

sure, there are people in this business who pay a lot less than retail for their equipment but they are the people that develop, support, and drive sales for their respective companies.

in all seriousness though, stop making unsubstantiated claims about things you know nothing about.
Jun 28 2011 2:40PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Wow....dude I was totally mocking...and a basic business course? It was a joke homie....for all you know I have a MBA with a focus in marketing, and own a ski company....maybe even a decent sized one....for all you know....muahahaha....maybe I'm jus throwin out feelers to see what people are trending toward for future product development...muhahaha.....so before you start talking about things you don't understand sport, think for two seconds that ya may not be talkin to some little punk ass kid....get it? Got it? Good....naw I'm jus some 14 yr old rockin jibberishnesh ya naw mean? Don know nuttin bouts da biz naw mean?......muhahaha
Jun 28 2011 3:23PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Bastard....made me blow my cover....lmao......that'll be the end of the mountainviper.....ahaha....but thanks for playin folks!
Jun 28 2011 3:25PM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Btw pipe munkey....if ya see a username talkin bout price points again try not to step up and be a hero like ya know it all.....k?....could benefit the sport in long run....for all you know.
Jun 28 2011 3:32PM
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