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January, 2025

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Ecogroomer

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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
Basically, the idea is that you can groom three times the width with only one snowcat.

Read this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/action/snowboarding/news/story?id=6600031

Then this, which is his cost analysis:
http://www.slideshare.net/ecogroomer/ecogroomer-savings-analysis-for-a-major-colorado-resort-operator

Major problems that I forsee:
- No blade. There's a snowblower like rotary chewer in front of each side unit, but that's not enough for moguls/large amounts of snow. To achieve a good pass a blade is crucial; stockpiling and moving snow would only work with the existing blade.
-Based on a Beast platform. Huge cat, super wide (22 feet, something like 60 with the side units), tons of horsepower (527), tons of fuel consumption (twice what a regular cat would use, according to what I've been told). That would make the overall savings nill. Definitely NOT compatible with the average snowcat (which is around 16 ft wide, around 300 hp).
- Maybe you could go to a program where some cats do nothing but blade work and then these follow up, but that seems unrealistic too.
-This guy's from Florida.




Jun 7 2011 10:32PM
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array.
Posts: 2439 - Karma: 202
go big or go home?
Jun 7 2011 10:35PM
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Midwestoverdose
Posts: 833 - Karma: 45
^I get what your saying but it does seem like a good idea, but I se what you mean there are to rotors and is there even a plow thing on it?
Jun 7 2011 10:40PM
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Otherside
Posts: 305 - Karma: 93
Someone submited this idea to my mountain. The Staff's response: Cool!!!
Jun 7 2011 11:05PM
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Funnel
Posts: 7817 - Karma: 1,537
No ski area is going to invest in that. It doesn't reduce costs that much and the added bulkiness just makes it too tough to maneuver the machine.
Jun 8 2011 12:39AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Maybe at large resorts that operate a huge cat crew.

Or better yet, just cut down on grooming so much of the damn mountain.
Jun 8 2011 12:45AM
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jca
Posts: 4172 - Karma: 6,310
might as well convert regular cats to run on vegetable oil or biodiesel. i could see there being problems starting in the cold though.
Jun 8 2011 12:58AM
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Avifarer
Posts: 5926 - Karma: 598
the groomers at our mountain fuck up enough with one mat
Jun 8 2011 12:59AM
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POW-WOW
Posts: 1464 - Karma: 40
Hahaha valid arguement
Jun 8 2011 1:02AM
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Troy.
Posts: 5070 - Karma: 12,549
The only resort I can foresee needing a cat this huge is Deer Valley
Jun 8 2011 1:05AM
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snowbombz
Posts: 2456 - Karma: 96
if done right, i think this could work.


But right now, this seems sorta sketch
Jun 8 2011 1:07AM
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snowbombz
Posts: 2456 - Karma: 96
fuck that, i just read the entire power point, this is actually stupid.
Jun 8 2011 1:11AM
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timmi
Posts: 12874 - Karma: 3,460
I'm not too sure on the mechanics of a groomer, but what about a system of a retractable blade arm, sort of how a lot of the newer snowplows work. hydrolic arm that can extend the width of the blade.

Can get wide where it's useful, and shorten up where it's not.
It seems like being that wide all the time wouldn't be helpful where the trail narrows, or if it needs to go closer to lift poles, ect.
Jun 8 2011 1:19AM
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Funnel
Posts: 7817 - Karma: 1,537
Yeah. It's a cool idea, but it would not work in the cold weather found at a ski area.
Jun 8 2011 2:13AM
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EcGroomer
Posts: 3 - Karma: 10

I think that I may be time that I chime in an provide some feedback to this thread as the inventor of the EcoGroomer. First, please know that this is not just some wild idea that a guy in Florida who knows nothing about skiing or grooming has come up with. I am an expert lifelong skier. I have spend plenty of time in a snow cat and I have consulted with several resort ops managers and cat operators to refine this system. In fact Clifford Mann at Mammoth was a great help in refining the front rotary blade element. It will work for over 70% of all standard grooming. When it dumps 3 feet of snow or there is a huge mogul field to be cut down, the side units will be left in the yard. It will be retractable to fit on a standard cat track and can be installed ona PB600 or larger machine. It has it's own engines to run the tillers and self motivate the units, albeit with have the horsepower and fuel use as the main cat. This is intended to groom green and blue runs with bumps and ruts up to 12" in height. It is coming and I am glad that so many people are talking about it.   Dan Osborne AKA the EcoGroomer

Jun 8 2011 7:39AM
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funtimes
Posts: 263 - Karma: 93
hahah not only is your name spelled wrong, but your grammar is horrible. if this was the true creator (which i seriously doubt it is), then i would think he would check his spelling and grammar before he posted...and at least get his own user name right before he registered hahah.
Jun 8 2011 7:55AM
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funtimes
Posts: 263 - Karma: 93
good try though haha
Jun 8 2011 7:56AM
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timmi
Posts: 12874 - Karma: 3,460
Yeah if you truly are who you say you are, you're not a very good representative of your company.
Jun 8 2011 8:07AM
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baz1
Posts: 287 - Karma: -37
This must be a school project of some sort. look at picture 7 in the cost analyst labor for 3 cats is $240, but with the Eco Cat its $24? haha... guess its only gonna take 2 hours to groom the mountain, were it look 3 cats, 7.5 LOL....

Good try.
Jun 8 2011 8:30AM
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snomaster
Posts: 3346 - Karma: 5,776
Do you attach your ticket to your fanny pack before crushing the corduroy?
Jun 8 2011 9:10AM
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dilla_says_go
Posts: 5333 - Karma: 168
i appreciate that somebody is looking outside of the box for ways to green up the snowsports industry..

but yeah this idea seems asinine for the reasons listed above. it looks like you tried to employ the same technology found on your local floridian fairway to an environment that is less... uhh... inviting.

you might be able to sell a few units to deer valley and vail, but you'll never find an ecogroomer at any resort worth skiing.
Jun 8 2011 10:21AM
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Powdered_Donuts
Posts: 2180 - Karma: 187
assuming you are who you say you are and not some random troll do you realize you are on here arguing your point to a bunch of 12 year old kids on their moms computers lol who cares
Jun 8 2011 10:36AM
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MacMahoooon
Posts: 9009 - Karma: 3,305
Judging by the email used to register and no trace of other aliases, this guy does look legit. So maybe a little respect is due since he came in here to back up his ideas, feasible or not
Jun 8 2011 11:42AM
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snomaster
Posts: 3346 - Karma: 5,776
and this is what should be done. the great thing about biodiesel is that you can mix it in with reg diesel at any ratio as appropriate. generally, equipment made after 1985 is good to go. You just have to avoid using it with anything that has natural rubber hoses or seals because the bio will eat that shit up. also gotta be conscious of fuel filters getting clogged and make sure you aren't jeopardizing any costly fuel pumps.

if ski resorts really want to be more green, they can call me to coordinate a plan inclusive of:
1st.) energy audit to identify prioritized list of conservation opportunities
2nd.) waste management (recycling, composting and more)
3rd.) on site renewable energy generation consisting of micro-hydro which can utilize existing snowmaking pipes, solar PV, and/or small wind turbines sited appropriately.
4th.) biodiesel integration into diesel fleet
5th.) outreach program to communicate and educate own staff and general public of such initiatives.
Jun 8 2011 12:12PM
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bernierosow
Posts: 273 - Karma: 1,675
As a snow cat opp for the last 10 years I can tell you that this could be a good idea but looks poorly designed and thought out.  I'm suprised it's received so much attention.  There are so many problems with this that it's hard to figure out where to start.  I've been working under Clifford Mann for the last decade and he has always been willing to take a chance with wild ideas so maybe we will see a prototype in the future.  Cutting costs with our grooming fleet would be a huge deal for a mtn like Mammoth.  The biggest thing is that the tracks of the cat are a huge part of packing the snow and processing it.  if the cat doesn't run over the snow it's not making the same kind of product.  Places like Alta have double wide packer bars for deep powder days.  They can pack down an area two cats wide.  The extra large wings fold out so the cat can still make it through all the tight spots.  But they are not designed to deliver a premium product.  Good luck i guess. 
Jun 8 2011 12:16PM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
they should use horses to groom the slopes.... can't get any more eco than that!
Click for larger image
Jun 8 2011 12:19PM
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snomaster
Posts: 3346 - Karma: 5,776
love it, HA!
Jun 8 2011 12:26PM
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EcGroomer
Posts: 3 - Karma: 10
Glad to see the spirited discussion. A lot of time and capital has gone into this project thus far and much more will be required before it is ready for market. I agree with the feedback from Powdered Donuts and thus will not participate in this thread from here on out. To the other user from Mammoth, please tell Clifford that Dan Osborne says hi and thanks for supporting what was initially a very wild idea, but is now quite feasible. The EcoGroomer is coming soon!  Dan Osborne
Jun 8 2011 12:51PM
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MALONE
Posts: 3819 - Karma: 79
I'm a five year operator, i build park in mammoth and I think its way more of a pain in the ass than just having a couple more machines out there, More shit for an operator to break and honestly unless your grooming Palmer at mt hood or some wide open shit in Europe, i cant think of a single resort that would make use of a XXL beast most resorts that DO run a beast don't need it, great cat to move snow with and other than that they are just too damn big. Besides all that you couldn't build anything with that thing. build an Electric snowcat if you want to be green, don't try to make some 750,000$ pain in everyone's ass. I'm not gonna be stoked if i ever get to work and see one those things in my garage. Good intentions, bad idea
Jun 8 2011 1:04PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
Excuse me. I'm not twelve, nor using my mother's computer. My mother doesn't know how to run a computer. Please pardon the Florida comment; it wasn't called for.

I work at a ski area that's investing heavily in environmental programs (Stevens Pass), am involved with our cat ops, and so instead of brushing all of us off, you could use this as an opportunity to explain and get feedback. Within this thread I've seen two other operators as well as some folks with ski area environmental background. You'd do well to post again and answer what we've asked.

In your posts. you haven't responded to my initial questions. Additionally, you brought up using the PB 600, but your online slideshow indicates that you used the Beast platform for the numbers. Futhermore, the cost that you suggested for snowcat replacement ($330,000) might pay for a BR 350, a Bison, or maybe a PB 400, but it's not for a Beast or a PB600. The horsepower is hardly equivalent across all these machines (and there's a difference of 83hp between a Beast and the PB600, which might be crucial), so it's important to be exacting in how you present the info.

You can see this as an opportunity, or you can lose potential business and support from the part of the skiing community that we represent. Your call.
Jun 8 2011 1:16PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
Speak for yourself.

NS has the ability to foster intelligent discussion; assuming that it doesn't matter and can't support anything worthwhile is the lazy way out.
Jun 8 2011 1:19PM
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MALONE
Posts: 3819 - Karma: 79
.
Jun 8 2011 1:28PM
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Powdered_Donuts
Posts: 2180 - Karma: 187
i agree that in the skiing community ns can be a powerfull tool, but at the time judging by the replies he drew he wasnt argueing his point to anyone who was going to be of any use to him
Jun 9 2011 9:06AM
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EcGroomer
Posts: 3 - Karma: 10

OK, I will go deeper with you on this. I have met with engineers and execs from both cat manufacturers in the past few months. Both companies are intrigued, but have yet to commit the million+ that will be required to bring this technology to market. Some of their feedback has been incorporated into the current designs. At this point it is absolutely feasible for grooming 60%-70% of pistes and will save larger resort operators such as Vail and MMSA huge amounts of capital. The heavily bumped/steep runs and deep snow events will still require traditional groomers and winching.

Here is the key to it working on both the PB600 and Beast: Each Snow Processing Unit (SPU) has it's own engine for motivation and tiller operation, albeit smaller (250hp) due to the smaller mass of the units compared to the cat. They also have a front rotary tiller to replicate the front static blade action in moving and cutting the snow. They also have a smaller set of tracks and traditional rear tiller for snow processing. This is not a park builder or major snow pusher. They are snow processors for laying down a smooth track on blue and green runs. You need to think of them (SPU's) as mini snowcats following along beside or behind the main cat. They will retract behind the cat for tighter runs (cat tracks) and will detach for storage and maintenance. Yes, they will be less agile than a single cat. Only the most experienced drivers will be able to operate these bad boys, but due to the huge savings, these operators will be paid a premium (20%-30% over standard cat operators). 

You can do a Google search to view a lot more technical data on my SlideShare presentation and the "Sneak Peak" link on my web site www.EcoGroomer.com has more info as well. I hope that this has been helpful.  Dan Osborne

Jun 9 2011 9:08AM
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