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WTF Libya (and was Bush right?)

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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
go fuck yourself Gaddafi.


an interesting discussion point that will result in pages of flaming, karma draining like no other, and just plain hatred.

was Bush RIGHT?


you install a western style democracy in Iraq and the region will follow suit?
Feb 22 2011 3:38PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
stop trolling
Feb 22 2011 3:39PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
only partial trollololing.

have you seen the news? protesters are being straight up slaughtered, and the speculation is that this could end up a full blown genocide.
Feb 22 2011 3:41PM
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eldridge
Posts: 2272 - Karma: 47
.
Feb 22 2011 3:41PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
if there was a legitimate government in Iraq you might be on to something.

I think Facebook and Twitter get a lot more credit than Bush.
Feb 22 2011 3:47PM
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yeahno
Posts: 4008 - Karma: 3,414
Bahrain is fucked
Feb 22 2011 3:49PM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
It may be one of many catalysts. There are definitely some serious changes goin down throughout the region though. Pretty amazing to watch this all unfold. Still tough to tell how it will all turn out though.
Feb 22 2011 3:49PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3667 - Karma: 2,001
seriously?
the american presence in iraq has nothing to do with the protests in libya. this has nothing to do with america, nothing to do with us being in the middle east at all. no matter how much our media wants to make us think we're making a difference, we're not. this is simply the citizens of a country who got fed up with their government and are now revolting against a tyrant. if anything they're following the lead of egypt. not the us.
Feb 22 2011 3:54PM
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skier_boy26
Posts: 11295 - Karma: 502
at least my boy Gadhafi ain't a pussy like Mubarak
Feb 22 2011 3:58PM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
awwww what happend to your signature? kale told me it was funny


and skiminnesota you are stupid. Bush was never right. read this kids post--it was because of the egyptian revolt we didnt do shit. it's not our fault middle easterners want democracy and change instead of living under tyrant rule.
Feb 22 2011 3:59PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Irrelevant, this whole thing started in Tunisia. Claiming that the US had anything to do with the uprisings in these countries seems a little... arrogant?
Feb 22 2011 4:09PM
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exile_ch
Posts: 715 - Karma: 609
How surprising.
Feb 22 2011 4:32PM
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ORDEAL
Posts: 6386 - Karma: 75
Were you listening to MPR like a half hour ago or so?

Discussing this like no other. The expert said gas was going to get to like $5 if other countries follow suit or shit
Feb 22 2011 4:34PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
wow. threads
Feb 22 2011 4:50PM
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eldridge
Posts: 2272 - Karma: 47
dont act like you didnt know woozy would post in here lol
Feb 22 2011 4:51PM
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eldridge
Posts: 2272 - Karma: 47
saying it wouldnt have happened without us is pretty arrogant too, but whatever i dont really feel like arguing with you, im not on my game today
Feb 22 2011 4:55PM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12

i'll fix it for him

*it's arrogant to believe the United States inspired revolution with any "positive" actions.

There's no doubt they played a role in it, just not the one they'd like to portray.

Feb 22 2011 4:56PM
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vailsux.com
Posts: 1769 - Karma: 440
This is probably the most significant impact the U.S. has on the situation along with which countries military's we've trained.

Although, I have put some thought into the idea that maybe the U.S. unintentionally planted the seed for democratic state islam, but I think that view is short sighted. Regardless, it is foolish to say that the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have no impact on the situation, it is just a matter of size and scale of the impact. In the end I don't live in the region so I have very little insight into the rational of the people.  
Feb 22 2011 5:06PM
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O.G.Surachai
Posts: 334 - Karma: 84
I'm gonna laugh if the Iraqis rise up against the government that we put up in pla....oh wait.
Feb 22 2011 5:09PM
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Alpine3
Posts: 1811 - Karma: 24
been taking multiple trips to the middle east have we?? ya fuckin retard...
Feb 22 2011 5:21PM
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Crispy.
Posts: 6112 - Karma: 7,690
I have a feeling that Iran will bring out a nuclear weapon if it doesn't stop. They're right in the middle of all that stuff. Also it's kind of scary to think about what will happen if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over....
Feb 22 2011 5:40PM
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FerrisBueller
Posts: 8280 - Karma: 5,173
stfu rowen
Feb 22 2011 5:42PM
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stickski
Posts: 1938 - Karma: 1,529
ya it's this
Feb 22 2011 6:05PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3667 - Karma: 2,001
and i'm sure you have a first-hand account of what's going on too, don't ya?
i don't need your comments.
Feb 22 2011 6:49PM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
brian does not need your comments, faggotron.
Feb 22 2011 7:06PM
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Alpine3
Posts: 1811 - Karma: 24
thanks boys, but actually i do. i am a Army ROTC Cadet who has been interacting with hundreds people in the service for the past 3 years many of which who have deployed numerous times to Afghanistan and Iraq . Ive seen thousands of photos and hours of videos proving that we are helping them out whether it is rebuilding a community to set up schools and houses and an educational system or helping to establish a form of government.

try not to jump to conclusions next time just because some liberal news media told you to... ignorant ignorant ignorant children.
Feb 22 2011 7:21PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3667 - Karma: 2,001
and i'd actually go as far as to say if the US had never invaded iraq in the first place, there could very well be a people's revolution to overthrow saddam going on right now. and the country as a whole would probably be a hell of a lot more stable than it is now, with all our "help"
Feb 22 2011 7:21PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3667 - Karma: 2,001
1. i don't watch news, our media is retarded. i follow al jazeera among other things
2. if you're an ROTC cadet then we're probably around the same age. don't call me a child.
3. if you honestly think the military tells everyone what's really going on in the middle east you're even more hopeless than i thought.

try not to jump to conclusions next time just because some corrupt general told you to...
ignorant ignorant ignorant dumbass.
Feb 22 2011 7:26PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
how did this get so off track? it went from the OP claiming that the war in iraq was the main catalyst for this uprising (clearly not true) to people arguing whether we had any effect at all, to people arguing whether our military does any good at all over there.. what the fuck?
Feb 22 2011 7:28PM
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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
No one can know what the world would be like if the Middle East had been left to its own devices. We could have gone on to World war III for all we know. In my opinion the US needs to rethink some of the ways they deal with keeping peace in the Middle East, giving billions of dollars to corrupt governments that torture and kill its people does nothing to help move that country forward towards a better government, and neither does sending hundreds of thousands of troops in and destroying what peace there was. The US needs to find that fine line and try to stay on track.
And yes that was a run on sentence.
Feb 22 2011 7:30PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3667 - Karma: 2,001
seems like a semi-logical evolution of conversation.
at least moreso than what usually happens on ns
Feb 22 2011 7:30PM
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RubberSoul
Posts: 11249 - Karma: 14,642
how so? the OP's claim is pretty obviously not even close to true, we obviously had SOMETHING to do with it/had SOME effect on it, and it's pretty obvious that we've done SOME good over in iraq, but also done a lot of bad.. what's left to argue?
Feb 22 2011 7:34PM
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Alpine3
Posts: 1811 - Karma: 24
haha the guys i talk to are my friends, they have no reason to lie to me. watch a real documentary on our involvement in the middle east. look at the last thread i posted. i can promise you that are troops are not over there handling weapons during the day and pumping oil at night.

one of my best friends is a marine recon sniper, he is about to go on his second tour to Afghanistan. im sure what i hear from him is a bit more accurate than a reporter reading news articles and throwing their own spin on it to get ratings for their network.

ill admit skepticism is healthy for everyone, especially kids our age, all im trying to say is please don't shit on the troops involvement in the middle east, notice i said troops and not our government. they do that they are told to by their superiors, just like any other job.

im gonna guess that you prolly also believe that 9-11 was an inside job. but hell i could be wrong. definitely been wrong before.
Feb 22 2011 7:34PM
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Alpine3
Posts: 1811 - Karma: 24
absolutely. looking back now, there are numerous things our government would have done differently. but we can do that for every situation in our nations history... just the way things go sometimes. learn from your mistakes and move on. make a decision and accept the consequences no matter what they may be.. u know, all the shit they told us in high school haha
Feb 22 2011 7:37PM
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HermioneGranger
Posts: 1933 - Karma: 101
I believe Egypt's uprising and what is currently happening in Libya are a consequence of Tunisia installing a new gov't in their nation, which was a product of discontent towards corruption and unemployment, not a product of Iraq in anyway....

Just my two cents.
Feb 22 2011 7:37PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3667 - Karma: 2,001
i'm in no way shitting on the troops. i'm all for loving and serving your country, i just simply don't agree with war. i think our government is retarded for getting into everyone else's shit and starting conflict.

and i'm definitely not a conspiracy theorist, i believe a bunch of religious crazypeople (who comprise the vast minority of muslims) wanted to do something really bad to a lot of innocent people, and carried it out. do i think our government could have done a bit more to prevent it from happening in the first place? sure. but they definitely aren't the cause of it. or at least i hope not.
Feb 22 2011 7:40PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
LOL... while the role that the US plays is pretty substantial vis a vis their military/economic backing of certain regimes which will majorly determine the outcome of the protests... the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with this.
Feb 22 2011 7:49PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
-> me asking a simple question was a claim? :)

-> that US presence in the middle has nothing to do with anything.


perhaps it should be noted that this was a discussion i had earlier with my boss, who like me, is an avid news junkie. it should also be noted that this man is as far as you can get from a "bush supporter" (im not a huge fan of the guy myself) but i digress.

and inb4 this happens in Iran. lololololol


i must say, props to the fighter pilots who defected to Malta. kudos to you guys!

and to the guy who asked if i had been listening to NPR, this was discussed a while ago on there, i did not hear the particular broadcast you seemed to be referring to.
Feb 22 2011 11:32PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
and now the natural progression of this conversation is. will the US ever get to the point we saw in Cairo?

and by that i mean the total lack of a robust middle class. in egypt you essentially had the rich and poor, and the gap between those to classes was vast.

is america going to experience the same problem of the middle class being squeezed out? (i know the stats of the middle class's income being stagnant) and the rich getting richer. at what point do the american people rise up and demand change? and will the change they demand be a change for the better or worse? (dont assume the majority is right in demanding change always)

Feb 22 2011 11:38PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
adopt a more Jeffersonian approach to foreign policy?
Feb 22 2011 11:39PM
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bakedpow
Posts: 8770 - Karma: 10,467
Doode we have already had enough change for a little while.Click for larger image


Personally i think we need to get some serious change soon, our country is going farther and farther down the shitter every day we waste arguing with ourselves over tax cuts, health care, the war, economy, budgets, etc etc etc. The current administration is trying but there is just so much they can do without full support and unification of the nation.

On a somewhat related side note. The news programs need to address how they feed our country information even the programs that claim they are have unbiased opinions, for the little bit less educated or less logical of us it seems that whatever fox, cnn, msnbc etc spews is the holy truth. And whenever someone with a different view point comes along and doesn't agree with our opinion we get all defensive and don't even register what they are saying. This is leading to a more and more less well informed nation that isn't even fully aware of the problems in our own country.
Feb 23 2011 12:00AM
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mr_shifty
Posts: 316 - Karma: 16
Globalization at its finest. Just like how Bin Laden was able to get his message out to the world form a cave within hours.

I just want to know how many countries will follow and what type of government will form. Interesting shit going on right now.
Feb 23 2011 2:00AM
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000000000000
Posts: 843 - Karma: 1,552
refugees going to egypt? wtf? shits fucked there too
Feb 23 2011 2:12AM
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vailsux.com
Posts: 1769 - Karma: 440
not as whole, but it is going to be interesting to see if any states secede within my life time.
Feb 23 2011 2:15AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Excuse my single general sentence, I of course making an exact irrefutable statement that could not be taken in any other light.


Thanks for couterarguing my 'point'.... which if I have to explain it more detail, was me simply giving the people of these countries some credit for standing up to their governments and revolting against a system. Revolt is not an easy thing to accomplish, and it feels to me that credit is given to other nations and policies rather than the.... people of the nation?
Feb 23 2011 2:18AM
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vailsux.com
Posts: 1769 - Karma: 440
First?
Feb 23 2011 2:20AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
While I value your service, I cant fully believe that what you hear from the locals of the provinces you are in is truthfully what they feel. You are still an outsider representing a separate nation, even if you're on the best of terms with some people, you have to remember that those are the people in that country that want to talk and interact with you, and dont represent a true cross section of the political views in the country. Your opinion and reflections are much needed, but I dont think that your experiences can speak for the majority of another nations civilian population.
Feb 23 2011 2:24AM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24725 - Karma: 29,944
Click for larger image

Feb 23 2011 3:02AM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24725 - Karma: 29,944
Click for larger image


Feb 23 2011 3:56AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Why does it have to have so much Idaho though? I guess we do need wasteland to dump toxic sludge.
Feb 23 2011 4:33AM
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Cufe.
Posts: 1950 - Karma: 262
So... Wikileaks was one of the major catalysts for this then? I believe they where the ones who exposed the Corruption of Tunisia that sparked the revolutions. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

History is happening. i am excited to see the changes that these revolutions will bring.
Feb 23 2011 4:52AM
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