TSA and the Government is out of control!

Never forget, right? Then quick, don't google:

how many people died on 9/11

Two weeks ago Napolitano ordered TSA agents to start groping women's breasts and all passengers' genitalia.

please keep posting, each time you show a new ignorance

Steven,

If my memory serves me, somewhere around 3,000, but I'll be honest I dont know for sure. Not really point, which you seem to have completely missed. Was that supposed to prove something? Because I'm pretty sure it didn't, and if it did it only helped my case.

also on this note

the point is, that number is still peanuts compared to the REAL risks to your life.

9/11 still would have happened even if these scanners and pat downs were happening.

Please direct me to the press release or official statement he made in which he ordered all TSA agents to "grope women's breasts and all passengers' genitalia", I would like to read it. Thanks.

Wow. I'm not even sure how I should respond to that. I am very fortunate in that nobody who I had a strong relationship with lost their life in on 9/11. And I'm not even going to try to speak for those who did. But to be honest, I'm pretty sure that if I was in that situation, based on my general view on things, that comment would have seriously, seriously pissed me off. And as far as the "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside the US" report, yeah. People were dumb and precautions weren't taken. And it happened. You seem to have nasty habit of arguing for the side your trying to argue against.

and by this you mean, to create a false sense of security and provide the government a means to facilitate propaganda to control our lives as well as countless others?

Do you honestly, truly believe that the government put these things there for the sole purpose of taking away your rights? What could they possibly have to gain from that. I'm not saying politicians are always people of high moral standards, but they dont just sit there and try to think of ways to be evil.

No. Thats not what I mean. Cut out all security at airport for a week, announce it. See what happens. And see my above post. I dont understand this notion that the government is actively seeking to control our lives through evil plots. This shit costs money that the government doesn't have. Believe me, if they didnt think it was necessary, they would spend it on much more effective kinds of mind control.Grow up.

Why would you have a reason to be offended? The fact is there are many other threats to your life, that have a significantly higher death toll than terrorism, that get a lot less attention and government protection.

if you're really concerned about the sanctity of the victims, why do you support the use of their deaths as a coercive device to implement restrictions on the freedoms their lives supposedly stood for?

The true desecration of the 9/11 victims is when they become a tool to instill fear. We should celebrated a day of remembrance for the victims as a way to heal the pains caused by the loss not perpetuate the fear that was generated on the day as a means to keep the wound open.

haha, every post you've made has been refuted, no one would believe anything you say

If I had lost a loved one, I wouldn't consider their death to be "peanuts" like you originally said. Thats why I would be offended. I assume you realized that and are now trying to make yourself sound like less of a dick through this latest post. To which I say this: If we refuse to learn from our mistakes, and we let it happen again, in my view their deaths are in vein.

We can learn from our mistakes but we can also go to an extreme. New fangled scanners mean fuck all when the people responsible for looking over everything are fuckheads.

Also, I believe the proper version you want is "in vain".

Thats how an argument works. I say something, someone refutes it. I refute their statement and it goes on. Show me one instance where a point I have been made has been refuted, and I havnt been able to come up with an equally valid response. Validity in this case is subjective, so dont actually try, you will just look like more of an idiot.

no i dont think they put them there just for the purpose of taking away our rights. i think its more of a way to give airplane passengers a false sense of security more than anything else.

No dude, I literally mean that if we fail, we have to mainline the victims' deaths.

Fine, you think they are only there to give passengers false sense of security. I would still say thats wrong. Again, if they wanted to do that, there would be much more cost efficient ways.

It has provided the government the ability to maintain some form of justification for keeping our nation at war for the past 10 years.

Those in power, making money off the MIC, are laughing at what you just said.

"President George W. Bush told his Argentine counterpart Néstor Kirchner during a summit in Mexico that the war economy has stimulated US growth and the "best way to revitalize the economy is war."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/42733.html

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?Ind=D

From open secrets; Take the sum of the defense contractor contributions to all candidates: $1,570,477,741

So i can either take your word for it, or follow any of the 1.57 billion reasons otherwise.


but thanks for telling me to grow up, i'm the one who's feeling insecure about my maturity level.

validity is never subjective; it merely means that if the premises of your argument are true, then the conclusion must be true.

You are so naive, the government spends as much money as they want.

The former Secretary of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff, represents Rapiscan, the company which is selling these scanners to his former department.

Far too many federal contracts are sweetheart, insider deals.

Companies hire former high ranking federal officials, and then magically, those companies get hugely profitable federal contracts.

nobody has responded to my statement yet, because they know it's right and proves that any argument they have for the security checkpoints goes out the window..

steven, I'll repost it here for you, since apparently you're the only one arguing FOR the checkpoints anymore...


also, how big of an explosion do you think a would-be terrorist could make with an overloaded laptop battery, bic lighter or safety matches, a stick of deodorant thats actually made with homemade PETN, and a 16oz saline solution bottle filled with whatever liquid terrorists use to make explosions? I'd hazard to guess a very large one. All of these things you can easily and legally carry through the checkpoint. you could also toss a bottle of everclear bought at duty-free into the mix, for shits and giggles.


Thoughts?


oh and I looked into it, you can make a fucking awesome bomb out of a laptop battery without even using any of the other materials listed above, I'm surprised more terrorists aren't using laptops. oh, thats right, because the vast majority of terrorists are invented by our government to scare people like steven, and don't actually exist.

Yeah, people make money off of war. There are some people who would love to continue to justify the war for sake of profits. Not a new concept, and also not really what this argument is about. But airport security should be there regardless of any conflict we are engaged in overseas. It seems like the main reason for people being mad about this, changes every minute.

I watched as a couple had to leave brand new unopened bottles behind as it was over the 3oz (or whatever the rule is) liquid limit. This was after security as they were trying to board the plane. BUt it was probably worth it, I mean there's a CHANCE thousands could die.

nope, if it's "saline solution" it qualifies as a medical exception!

You dont think that there is somebody else in the government who would benefit even more from other more effectives means of controlling people's lives? Interesting. Again, I'm not saying that the motives of politicians are always pure, and that we should blindly accept them. I am saying that in this case, I think the anger is unnecessary and surrounds something which people shouldn't be angry about.

because it crosses so many lines

the only arguments the pro side has are "Scary terrorists" and "I love showing mah balls"

here ya go, you lazy chicken
http://tinyurl.com/25ndh9o

Who are the 'some people' : the majority of people in control of our government.

'not what the argument is about': it was my point entirely -- that the security measures are a means for those in power to maintain power and profits. you're going to have to try harder than that to shake off my claim.

First of all, don't make assumptions about me as a person. I LOVE flying. In no way am I afraid. I wasn't afraid AT ALL before these measures were put in place, and I am no less afraid now (because I wasn't afraid to begin with). I am arguing that there is merit to these devices, and they can help. I never once said that I believed they would solve all our security problems, and I never once said that besides them our security is infallible. Yeah, there are plenty of ways to blow up a plane. Old news. Like I said before, they WONT help all the time, but if they help once, its worth it in my eyes. The only argument I was making was the one i gave above. People like you just wont stop putting words in my mouth and making assumptions.

the thing is, since there are so many wonderfully easy ways to blow a plane to the ground, why aren't they going down every day? I believe its because there really aren't many fucking terrorists out there. look at security in any other country, for example the Israel example. They get you from your car to your gate in 25 minutes or less, including check in, yet you go through 6 layers of security to our 1.

I don't give a fuck about being man-handled. worse things happen to me every time I'm at a bar. What I care about is how ineffective, and borderline stupid our TSA system is. its junky crap, and isn't going to catch anybody who actually wants to blow up a plane. to catch those people, you need proper security, which begins with an entirely new system, which is never going to happen.

I was actually referring basically to the same people you mentioned. Or rather, I was making a general statement which does in fact include them. As I have said a million times, I am not so ignorant as to believe that all politicians seek only to serve the people with the purist of motives. And I am sure that there are plenty of people who want these scanners for the wrong reasons. That doesn't mean that they can't also be desired for the right reasons. How about the pat downs? No extra equipment and nobody is making extra profits from them, but people are still complaining about them and lumping them in with the scans, which leads me to believe that your argument, which is perhaps a more valid one, is not the argument of the majority.

Yeah, Israel is awesome. Why is their security so efficient? Among other things, they profile. Look it up. The fact is, people here would still be bitching no matter what the TSA does.

I didn't ask you to introduce me to google. I asked you to provide a statement in which napolitano specifically told agents to "grope women's breasts and the genitals of all passengers". If your going to make a claim like that, then call ME the ignorant one, you better be prepared to back it up.

profiling, and racial-profiling are two entirely different things.

stopping Shady McWhiterson is going to do much more than stopping Osama BrownPerson.

and I just said, I personally don't have issue with getting patted down, but I do feel like it IS a terrible system, a bad idea, and won't stop shit.

The fact is, people would still be bending over no matter what the TSA does. Believe me, if you've already gotten naked photos and touched genitals, she's probably going all the way.

awww can't do a little investigative research for yourself? Well I guess the "lazy" label still stands

Apparently I dont need to post in this thread for you guys to have something to say, because it seems like people in this thread just like to take what I say, add tons of words and hidden meanings to it, then argue against an argument that I never made in the first place.

It isn't my job to back up your ridiculous statements, thats up to you, and until you do that, YOU are the lazy one. A word of advice, never EVER join the debate team, and for the love of god, never get a career in sales or as a lawyer.

why not sales? I did cold colds for a few years, and it's all about embellishing the truth or dropping unsubstantiated facts.

As ridiculous as it all is, it's what's happening.

Never get a job working with horses because you'll probably end up taking a hoof to the face. I mean, there's a CHANCE! Wait, instead of never, I should have said only. I'm just no good at school clubs, well outside of GSA.

Hahaha, actually your right. I worked computer sales at best buy for 6 months, hated it for those exact reasons and quit so I should have known better. But the others still stand.

Actually, I would take the necessary precautions, and NOT get kicked in the face. Its an easily avoidable situation with a single, definite solution. Unlike this one. Your over simplified analogy just shows why you shouldn't be taking part in this conversation.

well, at least you're speaking from experience

case in point.

Get over it and let him pat you down. They don't enjoy it anymore than you do and its their job to ensure your safety to the best of their ability. This shouldn't start an internet rage for your "rights" when flying. People need to stop starting an internet rage looking for attention, maybe money and live with what keeps them safe in this unsafe world.

wellpppppp here we go again....

touching someone else's genitals is illegal.

Should we only prosecute those who get pleasure from their crimes?

Will he remember how my 3 year old daughter's crotch feels like? Will she remember it?

FInally some sensibility, we are being treated like criminals.

This is getting out of hand.

A retired special education teacher on his way to a wedding in Orlando, Fla., said he was left humiliated, crying and covered with his own urine after an enhanced pat-down by TSA officers recently at Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

“I was absolutely humiliated, I couldn’t even speak,” said Thomas D. “Tom” Sawyer, 61, of Lansing, Mich.

Sawyer is a bladder cancer survivor who now wears a urostomy bag, which collects his urine from a stoma, or opening in his stomach. “I have to wear special clothes and in order to mount the bag I have to seal a wafer to my stomach and then attach the bag. If the seal is broken, urine can leak all over my body and clothes.”

On Nov. 7, Sawyer said he went through the security scanner at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. “Evidently the scanner picked up on my urostomy bag, because I was chosen for a pat-down procedure.”

Due to his medical condition, Sawyer asked to be screened in private. “One officer looked at another, rolled his eyes and said that they really didn’t have any place to take me,” said Sawyer. “After I said again that I’d like privacy, they took me to an office.”

Sawyer wears pants two sizes too large in order to accommodate the medical equipment he wears. He’d taken off his belt to go through the scanner and once in the office with security personnel, his pants fell down around his ankles. “I had to ask twice if it was OK to pull up my shorts,” said Sawyer, “And every time I tried to tell them about my medical condition, they said they didn’t need to know about that.”

Before starting the enhanced pat-down procedure, a security officer did tell him what they were going to do and how they were going to it, but Sawyer said it wasn’t until they asked him to remove his sweatshirt and saw his urostomy bag that they asked any questions about his medical condition.

“One agent watched as the other used his flat hand to go slowly down my chest. I tried to warn him that he would hit the bag and break the seal on my bag, but he ignored me. Sure enough, the seal was broken and urine started dribbling down my shirt and my leg and into my pants.”

The security officer finished the pat-down, tested the gloves for any trace of explosives and then, Sawyer said, “He told me I could go. They never apologized. They never offered to help. They acted like they hadn’t seen what happened. But I know they saw it because I had a wet mark.”

Humiliated, upset and wet, Sawyer said he had to walk through the airport soaked in urine, board his plane and wait until after takeoff before he could clean up.

“I am totally appalled by the fact that agents that are performing these pat-downs have so little concern for people with medical conditions,” said Sawyer.

Vote: What do you think about "opt out" day?

Sawyer completed his trip and had no problems with the security procedures at the Orlando International Airport on his journey back home. He said he plans to file a formal complaint with the TSA.

When he does, said TSA spokesperson Dwayne Baird, “We will review the matter and take appropriate action if necessary.” In the meantime, Baird encourages anyone with a medical condition to read the TSA’s website section on assistive devices and mobility aids.

The website says that travelers with disabilities and medical conditions have “the option of requesting a private screening” and that security officers “will not ask nor require you to remove your prosthetic device, cast, or support brace.”

Related: TSA forces cancer survivor to show prosthetic breast

Sawyer said he's written to his senators, state representatives and the president of the United States. He’s also shared details of the incident online with members of the nonprofit Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network, many of whom have offered support and shared their travel experiences.

“I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.”


Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network executive director Claire Saxton said that there are hundreds of thousands of people living with ostomies in the United States. “TSA agents need to be trained to listen when someone tells them have a health issue and trained in knowing what an ostomy is. No one living with an ostomy should be afraid of flying because they’re afraid of being humiliated at the checkpoint.”

Eric Lipp, executive director of Open Doors Association, which works with businesses and the disability community, called what happened to Sawyer “unfortunate.”

“But enhanced pat-downs are not a new issue for people with disabilities who travel," Lipp said. "They've always had trouble getting through the security checkpoint."

Still, Lipp said the TSA knows there’s a problem. “This came up during a recent meeting of the agency’s disability advisory board and I expect to see a procedure coming in place shortly that will directly address the pat-down procedures for people with disabilities.”