Rob Ford - Mayor of Toronto

I'm not sure that bleeding heart liberal correctly suits someone that comes from rural Alberta, but maybe you know better.  This partisan BS really should be avoided.

I'm also not sure whether you meant your sister agrees with you that Capetown is less polluted than Toronto or whether she agrees with you that mass transit is not a good solution (as I believe this is the point you are making?)  If the latter then I don't have much confidence in your sister.

Anyway, with regards to Capetown:  I asked for an example that is equally dense - Toronto's urban area is about 2.75 times more dense than Capetown.  Now I appreciate your anecdotal evidence, and as I have never been to Capetown I can understand that you might well perceive it to have less pollution but evidence might suggest otherwise:

First of all, not all air pollution affects the lungs and not all is visible.  Secondly, here is some historical data:

Toronto (pg 55): http://www.toronto.ca/health/hphe/pdf/weather_air_pollution_impacts.pdf 

Capetown (pg 7) http://www.environment.gov.za/soer/reports/gauteng/Chapter%207%20Air%20Quality.pdf

They seem to be fairly even in levels of SO2 and NO2, but Capetown appears to have higher ground level Ozone.  Couldn't find any comparitive data for PM10 as Toronto seems to measure in PM2.5 anyway.  Doesn't overly matter, because PM concentration doesn't necessarily tell the whole story because it doesn't necessarily give the amount and it's corresponding size.  Different particulate sizes have different affects.  Had the same problem with CO.

Secondly, you seem to be arguing that Toronto has more pollution than Capetown.  Guess what tends to be the largest contributor to this, at least with regards to CO and NO2 (NOx)?  Transportation - in the form of fossil fuel burning vehicles!!  NOx affects breathing.  So in effect, your saying that Toronto is polluted - moreso than Capetown; this pollution largely comes from vehicle emissions, and to combat it, we should actually encourage more use of vehicles... (?)  Probably not what you intended.

Interestingly enough the questions in and of itself can't really logically be answered anyway, at least not with respect to what we are underlyingly trying to figure out here.

The amount of pollution within a city and its subsequent concentration is influenced by more than how much the city itself creates.  Weather and geography play a role as does built form, dispersion and source concentration, hence why I asked for an equally dense one.  These in turn, are affected by economics, culture, mentality, land use and a myriad of further things.

So I guess it is possible to sort of say which city is more "polluted," but it has a great deal more to do with factors aside from mobility alone, albeit that is a big one and it really only tells a small part of the story.

What you can, however, be sure of, is that 100 people driving 100 cars creates a hell of a lot more air pollution than those same said people being transported by 2 buses or 1 centrally powered streetcar.  We haven't even started getting into what the subsequent land use, when used for the vast amount of space required for freeways and the communities they serve, then contributes.

And, as you seem to be concerned with the economics of the whole thing, it's... gasp, cheaper as well.  That is, of course, if you regard the many extranalities that historically have largely been "forgotten" with regards to the automobile.  Think about it yourself.  Density is cheaper and it's essentially simple math.  However, let's leave that discussion elsewhere.

Really, what the car provides is a higher degree of freedom (although that could be argued) and convenience (that isn't properly being paid for.)  Of course it provides mobility and is thus very useful where no alternative is feasible - such as rural areas or small centers, but as originally stated, Toronto is no such thing.

So yeah, if Ford does in fact, dismantle the steet car system and neglect bike lanes, then Toronto will have regressed.  Oh yeah, Capetown too wants to implement better mass transit:

http://www.pikeresearch.com/blog/mobility-hubs-to-help-reshape-urban-transit
http://www.andrewboraine.com/2009/11/integrated-rapid-transport-in-cape-town-no-other-alternative/

as does essentially every other city in the world with a decent population.

My undergrad was effectively Environmental Engineering FYI, assuming this of course, matters. 

people are going to drive their cars no matter what. you can coral people into using transit. get used to it.

can't corral

all i have gained from this thread is that toronto sucks

No, this is false.

hahahaha what are you talking about? Toronto has snow for maybe 2-3 months a year, a white Christmas is a rarity here. Me, as well as a lot of my friends, and family bike year round here.

Bike lanes don't clog up traffic, more cars clog up traffic. A person in a car takes up much more space on the road than a cyclist in a bike lane.

In case you didn't notice a bike lane isn't as wide as a regular car lane, and almost always are found between the car lane and the side walk where there is extra room anyway. They DON'T REPLACE car lanes.

By getting rid of bike lanes, more people who were considering biking around the city(which is faster) are going to drive, when someone decides to drive in this congested city, it makes the commute slower for everyone.

i agree with 416 who posted above this. all valid points.

^^ bahahah that was the most misleading video I have ever seen. It might as well be a marxist / lenonist or NDP campaign ad.

1:05 - Housing costs are MASSIVE in Toronto. Do you know what it costs to live there? A 1500 sq ft house dt costs almost a million dollars. Even if taxes are ONE percent their high. I love the misleading percentages.

2:15 - they're still BILLIONS of dollars in debt

3:03 - Crime "severity" ? LMAO. Take a trip down to jane and finch. Theres enough trash and gangs down there to make me fucking vomit. The whole ghetto needs to be turned into a crater and rebuilt with law abiding immigrants this time.

3:17 - You can thank the Conservative Party of Canada for lowering corporate tax rates the past 4 years.

But you know what? In the end, you liberal, nanny state, cry babies can whine all you want. Rob Ford got elected, and contrary to leftist (media) belief, the city isn't going to crumble to the ground becuase the public sector has to take a wage and benefits cut in a recession when EVERYONE else has to... The party with tax payer money, is OVER.

unions can suck it.

Come up with more appropriate and original slurs. Yes, I go to Queen's and no, I'm not in political sciences -- but that was weak and you can do better.

On the other hand, this thread is mildly amusing but more aggravating than anything. Although I typically get annoyed with bikers on roads in Kingston, it is because of the LACK of bike lanes that makes it dangerous for both bikers and drivers. If there were more bike lanes in Toronto/Kingston/Wherever I think that it would reduce the accidents. That said, I would never bike on a road because drivers are fucks and I'd rather pay a fine for riding on the empty, and much safer, sidewalk. But let's not forget that I am a stubborn, opinionated... person.

im really proud of the toronto boroughs sticking it to those fucks in the old toronto. fuck them. we were better off on our own.

looks like slitherman could only count on the gay town in ward 27 and the hippy ndpers in the beaches ward 30.

this is chart is exactly how i knew it was going to look.

Toronto sucks and always has and probably always will.

If the BC Liberals go under and the NDP takes the reins again, the sinking ship will be BC and I'll heave a big sigh of relief at having got the fuck outta there before you all started drilling holes in the hull. What the hell are people even thinking? Considering giving James government is just madness.

This. The extreme left scares me as much as the extreme right, possibly more.

Jane and Finch is not that bad, we're not LA.

bike lanes take out space from the road. If you live in toronto you would know that their is very bad traffic, this is a cheap way to alleviate some of the traffic. and dont give me bullshit that more people should ride their bike to work. thats never gonna happen, my mom has to commute from mississauga to toronto you think shes gonna ride a bike 40km everyday? or howbout them bankers on bay street you think they are gonna ride their bikes to work?

THANKYOU, AND TO THE DUDE THAT SAYS WHITE CHRISTMAS IS A RARITY... what were you born last year? last year was shit i'll admit but pretty much every year before that we had some amount of snow on the ground, some years alot some years very little. THE YEAR BEFORE LAST YEAR we had so much snow even before Christmas like Decemebr 15th or something I HAD ENOUGH SNOW IN MY BACKYARD TO BUILD A MOTHER FUCKING IGLOO and your telling me to bike outside, have you ever biked in snow its dangerous for one... We do you think people put their motorcycles away for the winter, its not only the snow and the fact that its dangerous but its COLD.

rob ford should put an end to stuff like this http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/05/19/14010116.html

Good boy...

I guess it's refreshing to see that the west is no longer alone in the ridiculous, self-serving, narrow-minded thinking that has been so omnipresent in years past.  It seems, assuming that TO and its citizens pay attention to things outside of their city limits, that the west might, in fact, now have taken a lead role in being progressive and aware of issues concerning city building...

I do, however, agree that reform is need in city councils and departments and that there is much more room for further improvements.

Remember when Mel called in the army to dig you out? Or when he thought he'd get boiled in a pot by africans? I don't think anyone could possibly be worse than that clown. That said, Ford does seem pretty damn illogical/stupid.

except when lastman ran north york we had a surplus (part of the reason for amalgamation because i think the harris government didn't want to bail old toronto out, so conservatives are to blame for that as well) and the garbage trucks ran like clock work.

another day in the life of Rob Ford




yes, that's Hulk Hogan.

he ripped him apart!

change your icon back, i dont know who you are anymore

I'm just so sick of the blue jays

i know that feeling brooo

Rob Ford and I have something in common !!

For real, your mayor ain't shit unless he is in federal prison. Aka kwame.