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Quiver Killer binding inserts

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PuderLuder
Posts: 18 - Karma: 10
www.quiverkiller.com

include the note: "newschoolers" when you check-out and get 10 free inserts with your order.

Puder Luder
Sep 26 2010 2:14PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Well lets not get too precise here Alex, haha.

And yeah, check that stop collar. We just sacrificed a drill bit and superglued a block in place since the inserts are all the same depth. Much better than the adjustable ones, and our first attempt at a home-rigged one made out of duct tape and electrical tape. Buying a bit and supergluing something to it might be the way to go as far as I see it...
Dec 11 2010 11:31PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
I'lll put up some pics soon. I meant to document the whole process with lots of pics, but only got a couple. I used a drill press, definitely helps with the tapping process. FYI, for those using FKS, fasteners are as follows: 12 x M5 pan head 10mm, 4 x M5 pan head 20mm. 18mm would also work but I could not find any. 16mm were definitely too short.

Getting the FKS screwed in was a little tricky, the heel is tough to line up because of the brakes in the way, I'm sure I'll get better at it though as I'll be switching them up fairly often. The work like a fucking charm though. I didn't have any loctite in them this weekend and all they required were quarter turns on the toes at lunch time to keep them in there, heels were perfect.

Oh, and testament to how bomber ON3Ps are, even though I almost drilled right through the ski 17 times I had literally zero damage all weekend. A buddy of mine was skiing hi brand new Night Trains and had two core shots (one near the edge) skiing the same terrain. Scraped some rocks, and hit half a dozen tree stumps/buried trees and these bases and edges have no marks.
Dec 13 2010 12:15PM
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Ghini
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 3,002

The fact that he has core shots and you dont while skiing the same terrain only tells that you were lucky and he wasnt..

The chance that your ski's were possitioned at exact the same spots all the way every line is nil/nothing/zero/very very small..

Moment uses extra thick 4001 Durasurf sintered bases, they are great..in fact ON3P uses the same base material!! !Eery base can get core shots/damage..it sucks..

I can understand you are stoked on you ON3P's, take good care of them, but dont spit on other companies, we all love skiing and all companies in our community earn some respect.. And do your homework next time you say things like that..

Peace out and happy shredding!

Dec 13 2010 2:44PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
Wasn't trying to rag on Moment at all, I have great respect for them and this they make excellent skis. I was more trying to say that even though I drilled almost all the way through my skis they held up beautifully. I realize this probably was most likely luck, either good on my side or bad on my buddy's side, either way it sucks he had to get his skis fixed up.
Dec 13 2010 4:45PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018
Well, just to get totally technical about it, we use a 1.8mm thick 4001 base and Moment use a 1.3mm thick 4001 base. So our are technically about 38% thicker.

But you are total right - core shots are just luck of the draw. And the bases that Wrenegade was skiing were on Tacoma-Era skis, meaning they were the same material and thickness moment uses - so yep, just got lucky.
Dec 13 2010 5:09PM
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shawaj
Posts: 1 - Karma: 10
this Puder Luder chap from Quiver Killer wasn't actually the guy who invented these and actually ripped the idea off the inventor.

the guy who invented these gave the design away to Puder Luder to do a group buy on TGR and Puder Luder decided to make a commercial venture out of it and give none of the profits to the original inventor.

The original inventor sells a much improved version here www.bindingfreedom.com or www.bindingfreedom.co.uk if in UK/EU along with some other great products. He is actually a mechanical engineer so knows what he is doing rather than Puder Luder who just ripped the idea off of someone else.

either way these are a great product...just wanted to set the record straight because the guy who should be getting praise for these is not and it is pretty unfair really.
Dec 13 2010 9:07PM
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zerospinskier
Posts: 4867 - Karma: 350
And the drama ensues. He has a cool idea by having the slot on top to allow installation with a flathead screwdriver. Either way, they are still too expensive for me to justify buying them for every new pair of skis I get, the originals or the knock offs.
Dec 13 2010 9:59PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
I believe Jondrums and Puder Luder have resolved their differences. There was some drama for a bit though.
Dec 14 2010 12:13PM
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skinny
Posts: 36 - Karma: 10
if i wanted to be able to use both a marker baron and a marker griffion on the same ski..is this possible??....will these insets accomplish this? if the bindings have two different bolt patterns (like i assume the baron and the griffen do?)..what happens to the unused holes in the ski.. when you switch the bindings back and forth?....
Dec 16 2010 2:01AM
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crawley
Posts: 605 - Karma: 729
Unused holes will be fine, stainless will hold up just like the unused holes on a snowboard.

Just playing a little devils advocate here, but I see some people in this thread mentioning mounting inserts in NEW skis! That's nuts, you'd have to hold a gun to my head to do that. READ THIS: A ski that has one set of quiver killers is missing as much core material as a ski that has had THREE MOUNTS!!! pi*r^2 ftw. 3.5mm drill bit vs 1/4" drill bit. So if you have two sets of quiver killers in your skis, you have equivalently damaged the structure of the ski to the tune of 6 standard mounts.

This is all not to mention the built in thread locking that a standard mount offers so you don't have to rely on loc-tite which may or may not do the trick if applied at freezing balls temperatures.

I'm not hating, just want to make sure people understand the math at work here. If I ever need to repair a mount I'd be all over these things.
Dec 16 2010 12:44PM
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DrZoidberg
Posts: 5675 - Karma: 4,268
Dude, pi r^2 is the area of a circle. Volume is 4/3 pi r^3 for a circle. From photos of them they're cylinders with a cone at the bottom, and even if you used pi*r^2*h which is the volume for a cylinder and 1/3 pi*(r^2)*h which is volume for a cone and added them together, you'd still have to account for the threads, which take up a small but measurable volume.

But... The general consensus on these is that they work well? And can somebody explain the loctite? Is that stuff meant to make a permanent bond, or prevent a screw from unscrewing itself due to vibration but still allowing you to remove it when you want to by applying enough force?
Dec 16 2010 1:00PM
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crawley
Posts: 605 - Karma: 729
haha. "Volume is 4/3 pi r^3 for a circle" is a good one. Volume of a sphere is what you mentioned, and I'm not any good at drilling out spheres lately.

Threads would change the calculation for sure, but even if you do the calculation for 5/16" vs. .19" you still are talking about more than 2.5x extra material being removed.

Loc-tite will do the trick if you use the blue stuff. Red stuff might end up permanently locking the screw in place. Just apply it at room temp a few hours before you need to use them (full day would be best) and you won't have to worry about loosening.
Dec 16 2010 1:26PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
To play devils advocate to your devils advocate, the inserts fill the holes with a sealed stainless steel piece. SS > wood core with regards to strength. The inserts are not going to compromise the structure of the ski. It's not like holes are being drilled, and left unfilled, or even filled with a subpar material, they are being filled with an extremely strong, cyndrilical insert.

Also, I'm surprised it hasn't been posted, but the quiver killers were independently tested for pullout against a standard binding mount, and the quiver killers required a far higher amount of pressure before a pullout occured in comparison to a standard mount.

And as for Loctite, and it "possibly not working in freezing temperatures", I'll defer to the fact that if Loctite can ensure that the critical suspension pieces on a car don't come flying off when it is -10 degrees and the pieces are rotating at 70mph, I'll trust it to keep a set of screws on a pair of ski bindings no problem.
Dec 16 2010 1:34PM
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DrZoidberg
Posts: 5675 - Karma: 4,268
HAhaha I did write circle. Maybe in another dimesion... I wonder if ski/binding manufacturers are gonna start incorporating this into skis. K2 has the schizos. Will it come to the point where a binding comes with inserts? I guess that would hurt binding sales, but it would be awesome for the skier.
Dec 16 2010 1:50PM
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crawley
Posts: 605 - Karma: 729
I mostly agree with you. You are probably right. The way those inserts work, they would only see compression in a actively engaged ski, so no problems since the stainless will be stronger than the material it replaced. However, if during a crash the ski was to unexpectedly experience reverse flexing (over cambering?) you would have a tensile situation at the insert and I would have to believe the ski would be more likely to fail.

The pullout should be substantially higher, as is true anytime a stainless insert is installed almost anywhere. I make speaker enclosures for a living and even in aluminum we use stainless inserts when we need high thread strength and durability.

Loctite will work in cold temps, it just might not set up if applied in cold temps. Loc-tite specifies on their data sheets that threadlockers should only be applied above 50 degrees. So all I'm saying is don't wait until the day you are going to ski to mount your bindings or switch around bindings.
Dec 16 2010 2:01PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
You don't necessarily need to use loctite, it's not as if the screws back themselves out very quickly. I plan on swapping bindings quite frequently, I have used Quiver Killers two days now, both without loctite and haven't had any real issues. All that has been required is a couple quarter turns on some of the holes at lunchtime and after a day of skiing (if I were to use them the following day).

Dec 16 2010 2:35PM
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crawley
Posts: 605 - Karma: 729
dude.... nylon patch screws screws would be so perfect for this.

PL, check out McMaster.com part number 91760A245. It has a built in nylon patch in the threads so you don't need to use Threadlocker. They come in any size and length, so you should be able to find them for any bindings. I'd use a socket cap before a pan head to avoid stripping and to get higher torque on the bolt, but either way seems like that would fix the loc-tite issue. Seems like this would be an easy add on to sell with the inserts.

Bolts with patches are expensiveish (50 cents per bolt), but I would imagine they would last for several dozen insertions before the patch wears out.
Dec 16 2010 2:51PM
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DMan-II
Posts: 106 - Karma: 35
http://www.bindingfreedom.com/main.sc seems like it has a better store, a lot more items to get, and you can buy the inserts one by one which is nice.
Dec 20 2010 12:57AM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,085
I've toured, charged, dropped cliffs on, and generally beat these up as hard as I know how, and they're doing fine. I'm certainly a believer.

A video of skiing Dukes with QKs on my Wrens.
http://www.vimeo.com/17732452
Dec 20 2010 1:37AM
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tj.hall
Posts: 681 - Karma: 37
David Steele rides these.. Hmm. Good enough for me. I would trust him with my life pretty much. Dude's a bro.
Dec 20 2010 7:05PM
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jon@wh2o
Posts: 314 - Karma: 158
threadz
Dec 21 2010 12:53AM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Internal and external threading makes for several processes during manufacturing. They are small, so the tolerances are probably pretty small. They are made out of stainless steel, so the material isn't cheap. There is high demand, and a single producer. So... that's why.
Dec 22 2010 7:41PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
I remember running into you at the top of "Wild Cats" on one of those awesome pow days last year. Sweet footage!
Dec 22 2010 7:44PM
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Pudge
Posts: 3718 - Karma: 3,117
i havent checked earlier in the thread but could you put them into the holes i have on my ski now? i want to but i couldn't move my mounting position at all. it sounds theoretically possible because these are wider than the hole from the screws. but i am not sure if they would hold up the same
Dec 23 2010 3:20PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
Yes. If you want to use a current mount it is absolutely no problem. Actually it's better. The existing holes serve as pilot holes for the drill bit for the quiver killers (they require larger holes anyway). After that it's just a matter of tapping the holes, epoxy and screwing the inserts in. 8 hours later you are ready to shred.
Dec 23 2010 3:23PM
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Pudge
Posts: 3718 - Karma: 3,117
oh then i am definitely going to purchase. but do most locals deal with inserts? (i live in central MA)
Dec 23 2010 3:31PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
If you crash hard enough to over-camber your skisto the point of snapping, weak point or not, your broken skis will probably be the least of your problems. I saw a pair of the old Black Diamond Havoc skis mounted for tele, and it looked like the regular screws ripped out, heli coils ripped out, and then they drilled a wide base insert into the skis through the bottom, which left several holes halfway through the skis as big as nickels (filled with p-tex), and the other half as big as an ordinary insert... They were skied for several years, and they are still in one functioning piece. Right where the holes were, there was more core removed than remaining on the underside of the ski.

Point being, unless you are 300 lbs, and your skis are thin noodles, and your mounting pattern looks like a military parade, your probably gonna be alright.
Dec 23 2010 4:00PM
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Goku
Posts: 8119 - Karma: 4,223
buying a some for my next skis
Dec 23 2010 10:31PM
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PuderLuder
Posts: 18 - Karma: 10
We are replacing our original offer of 10 free inserts with a discount code worth 10% off your entire order.  Enter the code NSERS when you check out for the discount.

PL
Jan 4 2011 9:39AM
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Balto
Posts: 25985 - Karma: 4,404
now im tempted to QK my C&D/wrens....
Jan 4 2011 1:16PM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
small question, don't wanna scroll through the entire thread, can i remove my jesters from my ep pros, get the inserts in and still ride strong ? or are they only bombproof on a first mount ?

Jan 4 2011 1:24PM
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Monophonically
Posts: 431 - Karma: 175
This is incredible. . Im going to get sum
Jan 4 2011 5:32PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
This is fine. The holes have to be drilled wider anyway. Go ahead.
Jan 5 2011 12:57AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Sick!
Jan 5 2011 1:18AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
alright, now i know what to ask for my b-day ! :)
Jan 5 2011 3:59AM
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PurpleDino
Posts: 1513 - Karma: 483
It'd be really cool if you were able to make plugs.  So you screwed them in and they plugged up the holes.  That way, if you had to mount with a different pair of bindings you wouldn't have to worry about any water damage
Jan 5 2011 12:08PM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
correct me if i'm wrong, but arent the QK inserts completely sealed off, unlike brass inserts or helicoils ....

so no worries about water soaking in ...
Jan 5 2011 12:57PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
^ Exactly, no issues with water or snow. I have my Billy Goats mounted for FKS and Dukes and the Duke holes having been sitting empty for 10 days of skiing without issue. Now, only 3 holes (rear heel holes and centre hole) are visible, but still, no issues. Quiver Killers were designed for exactly this.
Jan 5 2011 2:14PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
You have your sticks mounted for FKS and Dukes right?
Jan 5 2011 4:50PM
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wrenegade
Posts: 6631 - Karma: 41
Yep, that's what it says.
Jan 5 2011 5:33PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Wow... I feel retarded...
Jan 5 2011 5:45PM
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PurpleDino
Posts: 1513 - Karma: 483
Yeah I realized that after I posted that haha.  It would be exactly like snowboard bindings inserts.  Leave some open and it's fine.  So you could have two seperate mounts on one ski for two different companies of bindings
Jan 5 2011 6:43PM
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KennyC
Posts: 1922 - Karma: 46
why do you say the f word so much?
Jan 5 2011 7:36PM
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JTL
Posts: 2275 - Karma: 338
For 15% off your order, use the code "ATScrew".
Using the code will help me and you. Thanks a lot
Aug 21 2011 11:30PM
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NWPA
Posts: 2309 - Karma: 165
well fuck wish i would have seen this thread before I bought some.
Aug 21 2011 11:35PM
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