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New pow skis, advice please and mounting position?

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NI@LL
Posts: 12 - Karma: 11
sup guys, recently had a shoulder op and am therefore chilling at home for a few wks. Of course have watched ridiculous amounts of chug life, tc, edits and last years movies. I have been trawling the web pretty heavily looking at various pow skis. I have never owned any myself although last season a mate bought the new benchetlers n gave me his old rossi steezs for the rest of the season, loved having the extra float altho these things were a nightmare on piste and still pretty bulky to swing about. I am 21 about 5'11, 12 stone or around 75kg, I ski in meribel in the 3 valleys, France altho am hoping to hit whistler 2011/12 so have this in mind. I charge pretty hard both park n bc and am looking for something fun and easy to play around with both just riding pow aswell as being able to stomp cliffs, booters and big lines. Love the idea of normal sidecut and camber underfoot for on piste, whilst having pretty heavily rockered tip n tail and possibly reverse sidecut in both aswell. 1st really saw this in my mates bentchetlers and didnt want to get the same skis. next saw it in libertys genomes absoloutly love the look of em but at 140 underfoot i think theyd be too big to go to france in for this season. so have been looking around and the main ski i like the look of is 4frnt's crj's they look sick, not too wide, light, very easily pivotable (something im really interested in for slash/smear turns and being able to dump speed) due to the rocker and sidecut. Is there anything else you could suggest? Also could you give me some input on mounting position, as these steezs were centre mounted, like i said they were alot of hardwork, but were pretty heavy and had no rocker or early rise what so ever. a few of my mates have also centre mounted there pow skis, i see the sense in it from a freestyle pov spesh as this season i wna go big and plan trying a wider range of inverted tricks etc in the pow 1st, would centre be best or slightly back what do guys do? Cr in the vid for the crj's says about how because of their shape and specs he can mount them alot closer to true centre but this obv means not quite centre so.....
sorry bout the essay
peace
Aug 11 2010 2:32PM
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RedCloud
Posts: 125 - Karma: 21
That is quite the essay..... It looks like you are in the market for a jibby pow ski, with your interest in the bentchetler and the crj. I own the crj and I love it as a pow ski. The obvious competitors are: Rossi s7, 4frnt crj, on3p Billy goat, liberty double helix, armada jj, k2 obsethed, line sir fancis bacon. I have never center mounted a pow ski, but it doesn't sound like a great idea. With that being said my buddy mounted his hellbents forward of the recommended line and he is super happy with them, but that may be hellbent specific.
Aug 11 2010 3:11PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
Add Night Trains to that list along with Völkl chopsticks, Elan Boomerang and the new Nordica aswell

Most K2 skiers mount their HB's in front of recommended and I've heard a lot of people saying they're happy with the forward mount aswell. Seems to be very HB-specific, as you said

Centermounting a powski is'nt a very good idea if it is'nt symmetric
Aug 11 2010 3:18PM
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j_hamborg
Posts: 560 - Karma: 745
Atomic Bentchetlers. Mounted 2.5cm back from center. The best.
Aug 11 2010 3:30PM
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tj.hall
Posts: 681 - Karma: 37
Whoa. Gold coin status and only 40-ish posts..
Aug 11 2010 3:35PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Depends a lot more on the rider's style and the ski dimensions/flex. Some actually ride very well at or close to center.
Aug 11 2010 4:04PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
if i read that right you also want to be able to take these in the park some... a ski that was designed to be a fat park ski is the Line Elizabeth. they might be a bit on the heavy side but could be worth checking out for your purposes. they havent made them for a year now so you might have to look around a bit.
you can take any ski in the park if you want to and can use it effectively, but some skis are designed to handle the abuse of park better than others. surface might be worth checking out too. they have a lot of fatter rockered park skis. just keep looking around and researching and try to actually handle them before you buy.
good luck!
Aug 11 2010 4:15PM
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Dukeybrains
Posts: 1030 - Karma: 11
Surface makes some dope pow skis, I just bought some one lifes can't wait to ride em this season.
Aug 11 2010 4:16PM
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NI@LL
Posts: 12 - Karma: 11
Well like i said im about, 5'11, 75kg, got an athletic build, im not particularly big or anything but far from skinny. riding style i like to play in the powder aswell as charging it, definatley looking to drop more cliffs and do more bc freestyle this year though.
the line's i do like the look of, although am told my friends that being quite flexible they tend to ping out from under you on a landing if your not dead over them. As i said would like to avoid the bentchetlers as a friend bought them. Always liked the look of the bents although from reviews they seem like a deep pow specific ski for massive drops and booters only, id like something thats a bit more versatile easy to whip about and deal with more than just the deep stuff as i will be hitting europe again before canada.
thanks for the input but u didnt get that right p-fo im not looking to take these in the park at all just liked the idea of normal camber etc underfoot for those runs home etc. when u do have to be on piste.
From any personal experience has anyone got/ridden any skis that are just really easy to swivell and slash preferably heavily rockered with some form of reverse sidecut aswell as stable for big landings
Aug 11 2010 4:23PM
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NI@LL
Posts: 12 - Karma: 11
thanks alot for the info, could you give me a bit more on the crj's themselves. unbias pro's n cons from someone that has them, any real downsides to them? do you have any other pow skis, if so why? fi you were to buy another pair of pow skis what would you get n y over the crj's?
cheers
Aug 11 2010 4:26PM
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RedCloud
Posts: 125 - Karma: 21
Let's make sure you are looking in the right segment. The segment in my mind are:
Big mountain powder chargers(120+ waist, long and stiff) ex: 4frnt ehp, armada ant, on3p cease and desist, etc...
fatty powder (130+ waist, softer) ex: hellbents, pontoons, genomes, prophet 130, arg, etc...
powder jib (110 - 125 waist, often 5 dimensional, softer) ex: crj, jj, nighttrain, etc
park/pow (95-110 waist, often rockered) ex: jeronimo, s3, blends, fujas, etc....
park (80- 95 waist) ex: s4, ar6, silencer, afterbang, etc...
In my mind u are looking in the jib pow area. (skis overlap these areas, but that helps keep things straight in my head) I bought the crj's becauseI got a killer deal at the local 4frnt shop. If I had to do it again the top of my list would be the jj, Billy goat, night train, and the double helix. The crj is a little soft for me, I feel like I can overpower it, to be honest I think I would have preferred getting a ski with normal sidecut becauseI think I don't really need the sliding ability the reverse side cut offers
Aug 11 2010 5:19PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Some words have been said about ON3P Billy Goats, but I think from your last sentence that Caylors might be your ticket. 120 underfoot, good ol' dose of tip/tail rocker, and stiff enough to handle good size hucks. Close to symmetrical (we tried symmetrical, everyone likes them a bit thinner in the tail), which is great for you if you like the centered stance and have tail to wash around behind you.

For an few inches of snow/+, messin around ski, Caylors would be my pick out of our lineup. If you want a more charge oriented ski, then yeah, the BG would be the way to go, stiffer, more directional and near effortless to get on edge and do quick snap turns in trees. At your size though, I'd even consider a Cease and Desist, even though its the biggest in our lineup, its not a deep soft floaty pow only ski: its big, mean, stiff and meant to charge.
Aug 11 2010 6:02PM
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p-oskier
Posts: 1407 - Karma: 58
I have also been looking for pow skis for few months now and I decided to go with the JJs. I have never skied them but from all the info I read on them they are supposed to be a great powder ski and perform very well on groomers, you should look into them cause they look like they could fit you very well.
Aug 11 2010 6:07PM
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NI@LL
Posts: 12 - Karma: 11
red cloud loving the way you split them all into sub categories makes things alot easier! yes i think your definatley right jib pow sounds right to me, not that i dont want to ski pow fast and hit some big lines along with cliffs aswell which i would have thought jib pow skis great for yes? but definatley playing and jibbing in the pow will be just as important. now before asking about the other skis, why could u tell me y u feel it is a bit soft for you, how do u feel u can overpower it? if you dont really use the sliding ability do you charge hard then? more direct stronger lines? i definatley would benefit from the ability to pivot and slide in the sort of skiing i would be doing, what other disadvantages do you feel the crj has? at the moment im thinking it sounds very suitable to me and am trying to judge weather what you see as a downside to you is just the difference in our styles of skiing. What would u benefit from the other skis u mention over the crj's? thanks this is a massive help!!
Aug 11 2010 6:55PM
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NI@LL
Posts: 12 - Karma: 11
hmmm well tbh im not that sure on weather i want a stiff or flexible ski as i ski kinda of both charging and playfully/jibby in pow depending on conditions, mood, who im with etc. what are the pros and cons of flexible and stiff pow skis?
and i can see what your saying, although im a big fan of the reverse sidecut giving this ability to just pivot on the spot and give the rider this sliding ability going in to any terrain that maybe in front.
also u say a few inches plus for the caylors, but i have a pair of all mountain skis this really is for a pow specific ski, not necessarily the deepest all the time of course i will take it out in chopped conditions and when it is scarce but, this would be my pow ski and i was to be able to mess around on it in all conditions even if thats the deepest pow of the season and just popping off natural lips and cornices and such
Aug 11 2010 7:09PM
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RedCloud
Posts: 125 - Karma: 21
Thanks man. Just for completeness sake the other segments in my mind besides the ones above are all mountain rippers, carvers, and bump skis.
I guess to give you better understanding of where I'm coming from on the crj I think I need to give some background. I'm a pretty atypical newschooler. I'm 30 years old, 5'9" 195lb (mostly muscle, 32 waist). Mogul skier for all my life. I have trouble not making tightly linked turned wherever i go.... I just broke the 4 point style of jumping i have been taught my whole life...
Thus getting edge to edge quickly is really part of my style, the reverse side cut really doesn't seem to help me. With my weight/strength and really letting the crj run down something steep like upper cirque or baldy (snowbird) it can get a little squirrelly and the tails can wash out a little on big drops. With that being said tight trees in powder is awesome on them, which is normally what ya end up skiing because people bomb the open steep stuff first on powder days. I believe the Billy goat and to lesser extent the jj are stiffer which would help with my issues. 4frnt told me they stiffened up the tail of the crj for this year. Personally after skiing a 5 dimensional ski for a while I just prefer how a normal side cut ski feels (I guess I'm old school). Thus I would probably go with the double helix today. If you plan on going Mach 5 and dropping +20 cliffs a lot I would say look more inthe big mountain charger category
Aug 11 2010 7:38PM
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RedCloud
Posts: 125 - Karma: 21
I didn't explain myself very well. I feel more comfortable and I'm faster in powder if I set the edge hard, get the skis to release hard, and feel the "powder bounce", then I am slide turning... Some people, heck probably most feel the opposite.
As for stiff vs soft powder skis: I think a soft powder ski is more jibby and playful. It also performs better at slow speed. it's going to have somewhat of a speed limit, although I have seen some folks absolutely bomb stuff on noodly hellbents. A stiff pow ski will be stable at high speeds and basically beg to be let loose. Worse performance at low speed, aka not as fun in the tight trees. The stiff ski will blow through whatever you point it at especially crud. The soft ski will prefer to pop off that same Crud
Aug 11 2010 7:58PM
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NI@LL
Posts: 12 - Karma: 11
yea i gotcha, right i see so you like to constantly be making snappy turns i take it then, i do aswell although i would like this ability to slash and slide when needed and would also like to relax a bit more and surf the pow more sometimes. squirrelly, how so? do u mean they get a bit wobbly and unstable at speed? tails wash out im never quite sure what ppl mean by this, they sink or they flex to much and ping out? so they are stiffening it up a bit this year anyway then, 5 dimensional this is the reverse sidecut in the tip and tail with standard underfoot right? i can understand what u mean but iv got a pair of all mountains with normal sidecut they'l be fine for the hardpack when i need it, but when im out ona pow day i think it would be beneficial. Well i love to ski fast but gota admit dont drop anything that big, although i am going to be trying to go bigger this year i dont think it will be a regular occurance, but we'l see. So as for the flex do u find it holds u back on drops, is it a big factor? what are the advantages of a softer pow ski? also what length ski do u ride just out of interest?
Aug 11 2010 8:11PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
The reason I think it's a bad idea to centermount a rockered ski that is not designed for it is simply because it'll mess with the  rockered/flat/cambered parts of the ski. I.e. if you centermounted the NT's you would be standing with you whole foot on the tiprocker.

Close to center, fine, I usually mount my skis a couple of cm forward of recommended because that fits me.

But of course there is always exeptions, but generally, it's not a good idea to centermount a rockered (pow-rocker that is) ski IMO. Not even Pollard centermounts and I'm having a hard time thinking of someone who skis switch more than him in pow.
Aug 12 2010 1:16AM
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NI@LL
Posts: 12 - Karma: 11
cheers for the input this is why i was asking and yea i did think it probably wouldnt be true centre, but close to. really, so they are rockered to a point quite far back before they flatten out then?
just out of interest what do you ski? and what pow skis do you have experience of and what didnt you like about them, was it something wrong with the ski or something that just didnt suit your riding style and what would be better?
i gota admit i though EP did ride centre, but he must be close to? do you know how far back he is? and yea man sooo gnarley switch everywhere in the bc, and he's a butter demon love those butter 3s he does at the bottom of a line chucks up so much snow n just looks dope!
Aug 12 2010 3:21AM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
The Night trains have quite long rocker so there is'nt much to play with.

I ski everything, check out my vids to see for yourself.

I have demoed quite a bunch of skis thats made for off pist skiing, any perticular ski you wonder about? If so shoot me a PM, easier to discuss that way.
I ski with pretty good technique [/claim] and don't think there is any bad skis anymore, I'm sure there is one or two exceptions though. You can always adjust your technique to the ski/snow you're currently on. I like charging aswell as jibbing so skis that I like the most is pretty allround and has medium flex, it's easier to charge on soft skis than it is to play around on chargers.

I think the EPpro is at -3, so pretty close to center, I ride most of my skis between -3 and -5 and I have no trouble bringing any of them anywhere, park, moguls, powder, big lines etc.

Pollards is the man, steeziest rider of all times.
Aug 12 2010 2:41PM
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RedCloud
Posts: 125 - Karma: 21
I'll try answer your questions
squirrelly: not stable
Wash out on cliffs drops: the ski may flex a lot if you end up in the back seat a little, all the flex makes it hard to keep the tails kicking from one side to another. For example take a platic fork bend it against a smooth table. It will want to slide out and kick to one side to get rid of the energy. Try it with metal fork, it won't want to slide out as much bc u aren't storing as much energy in the fork. A little flex feels forgiving, a lot you loose a lot of control.
5 dimensional means reverse side cut tip and tail, normal side cut under foot. Some folks say 5 dimensional bc some of the companies give dimensions like 126-137-115-132-122 for those type of skis
You can check out the size of my skis in my profile
Aug 12 2010 2:51PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
I'm of the opinion that a few cm forward on such small camber (if any) you find in these skis is really negligible, whats more important is the change of stance/position and how the sidecut is engaged. I absolutely agree with you on the to each his own though, Landis Tanaka used to mount his Maden AK's forward of true center if I remember right.
Aug 12 2010 6:01PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
I'm of the opinion that if you're going to be doing any kinda groomer/cattrack out pow skiing, a reverse reverse ski is going to be less than fun. It would kick ass to have a pair to heli or cat ski with, but they're rare to see at most resorts for a reason.

As for stiff vs soft, I lean towards the stiffer side, and heres why. The huge rocker that we're seeing on skis nowadays already gives you so much cooshy/floatey-ness in the deep that you can still have a great ski that can butter and bounce around, but still be stiff enough underfoot and have some actual stability when you overshoot that 30 footer and take 'er more like 60'ish. Stiffer skis with rocker and camber feel like springboards in deep snow, softer ones just feel... I dunno, damp and wet-noodley.
Aug 12 2010 6:10PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Other stiff skis include chopsticks, or Faction Wednesday, Unity (but they stopped production), Liberty Double Helix... list goes on man.
Aug 12 2010 7:23PM
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Taylor_A
Posts: 529 - Karma: 4
mount in the center for switch pow skiing
Aug 12 2010 7:33PM
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Dr.Dickless
Posts: 2620 - Karma: 1,392
also add bibby pros, this next years look sick, and Lib tech NAS Pow, really good ski, really durable
Aug 12 2010 7:58PM
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Jarle
Posts: 278 - Karma: 321
Yeah, a few cm forward is usually not a problem, think we're on the same page just formulating it differently. As I said, I usually mount my skis somewhere between recommended and center, with duckstance for that matter.

BTW, my NT's did get fully reverse camber after like 4-5 weeks so messing with the mountingpoint does quite a big difference now ;)

Forward of center eh? Thats a new one, but as you said.


OP
Thing is, if you're not sure where to mount I would recommend you to stay within 2-3 cm of suggested mount. If you feel that you're still not enough center, just remount. Unless you get the Elan Boomerang, in that case, go like 2-4 cm in front of most centered suggested (says rail if I'm not mistaking)
Aug 13 2010 4:41AM
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