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DONT SUPPORT GRENADE GLOVES!!! read inside

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andrewmeehan
Posts: 765 - Karma: 364
I know Grenade is a Snowboard company, but this should give you more reasons to NEVER support them.
The company is run by dicks.

^
read this.
Jul 22 2010 6:58PM
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kzrstf
Posts: 2778 - Karma: 695
lol funny and clever troll
Jul 25 2010 11:51PM
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Gstrong
Posts: 4776 - Karma: 519
well, im never buying grenade gloves again
Jul 26 2010 12:14AM
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JahJahBinks
Posts: 3567 - Karma: 461
That is so homo. what an asshole.
Jul 26 2010 12:53AM
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Joshua.
Posts: 2957 - Karma: 6,230
fuck... now i have to throw away my gloves. oh well, i'll feel good about not supporting those chickenfuckers
Jul 26 2010 1:33AM
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Klick_2_klaim
Posts: 3396 - Karma: 25
SO What? The photog should have had his own ass before putting pics out there. A bunch of emails and hassle isnt going to get you anywhere. If anyone was threatened with legal action with zero proof, this is what would have happened. In any industry.

I didnt read any of the comments in the article, did he get his cash? did they settle? has he now ruined his rep? probably. Im sure Dustin Cravin doesn't want to be in the middle of this. Too bad he didn't make the olympic team, Best method in the pipe game, and our guys did sooo shitty.
Jul 26 2010 12:56PM
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neutralzombie
Posts: 8629 - Karma: 606
i woudl've given up on the emails half way and just gone to court with the matter.
Jul 26 2010 12:59PM
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Twinjibber77
Posts: 6239 - Karma: 2,354
someone find this article on a snowboard forum please, i wanna read the convo.
Jul 26 2010 1:03PM
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Keyjibbs
Posts: 1542 - Karma: 96
Are you a retard or just ignorant? The photographer gave the rider a low resolution sample picture to show his sponsors. This is a standard practice in this industry. Then Grenade who is a large enough company to know that they need to pay for photo's, knowingly used the sample photo on the site. It doesn't matter if it wasn't watermarked, it's still a copyrighted photo. He only did what was necessary to get his money which he rightfully deserved but yet has still to receive.
Jul 26 2010 1:12PM
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TravisDuncan
Posts: 12 - Karma: 10
after rreading this im gonna buy so much grenade gloves
Jul 26 2010 1:36PM
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mtbakerskier
Posts: 439 - Karma: 54
Wow, It actually makes me smile how much some of you understand the whole copyright concept.... def a good sign as this was not the case 10 years ago!

I hate seeing shit like this happen. I used to have it happen to me all the time when I first started, but have not had to deal with it personally for at least 5 years now. I think once you become a bit more "established" people are less likely to try to purposely screw you.... that and you tend to get a hell of a lot smarter about protecting your property.

The truth be told, there are a lot of slimeballs out there that will purposely rip off the photographer and videographer's just because they think they can get away with it if they don't recognize there name. Its Bull shit.

While I personally think the photographer fucked up by not watermakering the image, I dont see where he screwed up past that. It is pretty common to show athletes the images after a shoot for there personal archives and for them to show there sponsors. Anyone that is involved in this industry for any period of time, should know and has no excuse to not realize that images need to be licensed from the creator not the athlete. Any legit athlete knows this too and should make sure there sponsors contact said creator. What is extra fucked is this company is built around its imagery, and the CEO has even bragged about them having a strong trademark... this IP is no different than a photographer enforcing ones copyright, so yes Grenade does and should know better.....
Taking the photo down, after the fact is not an acceptable way out, the damage has been done, and they should pay for the infringement.... Photos are licensed based upon exclusivity, once it is used, even for a web site, or blog, its value is greatly reduced.

What really pisses me off is that this is not the first that I have heard of Grenade doing this, and I'm sure it wont be the last.
Jul 26 2010 2:03PM
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Nati513
Posts: 679 - Karma: 25
any news to whats going on with this?
Jul 26 2010 2:18PM
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notSOnifty
Posts: 164 - Karma: 13
not to start a whole other discussion. but a whole lot of you are claiming how ridiculous this is and how the photographer's copyright rights have been stolen. i ask everyone this then, how many of you download music without paying for it? technically you are stealing and using the artist copyrighted music, not really much difference. just sayin...
Jul 26 2010 2:36PM
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.jersey
Posts: 1925 - Karma: 9
wow, totally making me regret wearing a grenade jacket
Jul 26 2010 2:37PM
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ham.sandwich
Posts: 30 - Karma: 10

I feel like the grenade people are dooshbags but i also cant stand the tone of the guy who took the picture.

Like how much money did he want for one picture anyways? I feel like 300 would be fair, but i feel like this guy was probably asking alot more for it. And the boarder dustin should have told grenade that they would have to pay the photographer to use the photo, before they posted it. So i think that was the biggest part of the problem. Maybe if they told grenade that they would have to pay for it, they would not have used it at all, or maybe they would have bargained him down to 50 or 100 bucks. Its a photo on grenades fucking website, its not the cover of the wall street journal.

But yeah fuck grenade in the end they should have paid him a couple hundred or so, if they did use it in the website. I feel like the photographer may have thought that all companies are just made of money/money grows on trees, and may have been asking for more that a few hundred dollars.

If the photographer was asking for 5 or 6 hundred dollars for one foto, thats kind of redicoulous

Jul 26 2010 2:40PM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
that's not true at all.


As much as the situation sucked, that photog did not handle it very well.

If any of you are ever in a situation like this, contact them and ask them to either take it off right away or pay you. He really did not follow a line of communication that clearly stated his objective. I can see how it may have not been clear what he wanted.

After that, you send out a cease and desist letter, which informs of pending legal action.

Plus, pick up the phone! Email is nice and leaves a paper trail that can be used in court, but a phone call goes a long way to legit communication, and you can follow up with email. if you are worried tape it.
Jul 26 2010 2:55PM
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j.bird
Posts: 6680 - Karma: 15
...It does not matter if they takes it down. The photo has already been used. And he has screen shots to back it up.

He was clear what he wanted, which was payment. He did not want the photo taken down.
Jul 26 2010 3:16PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
So say you're selling your brand new, never used skis and bindings for $500. You gave them to someone to look at and decide if they wanted to purchase them for their own use. But they stole them instead and were using them for their own use however they wished like they were their own skis, you would be perfectly fine in bargaining the sale price down to $50?
Jul 26 2010 3:20PM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
It doesn't matter.

If he gave a photo to a rider, and a rider didn't communicate with their company, and the company put it up, the first thing you do is give them the option to take it down or pay you.

The company didn't know it was alright. If he tried didn't give them the option to take it down first, then it's as good as extortion, or the rider would have to pay the photog, it being the rider's fault ultimately.

It's better to be clear with people than to be ambiguous in an attempt to make money. It would probably help him build a relationship as well.

I mean, he COULD be a dick about it and DEMAND a couple hundred from them, but would it really be worth burning all those bridges in the industry he's trying to succeed in for a couple hundred?
Jul 26 2010 3:35PM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
*whether that's all he wanted.
Jul 26 2010 3:36PM
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j.bird
Posts: 6680 - Karma: 15
none of this matters.

It does not matter how it is acquired. Or if the rider talked to anyone. Their is a copyright law, and it is your own responsibility to know it just like all the other laws.

I think we are discussing a silly detail anyhow.
Jul 26 2010 3:53PM
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Keyjibbs
Posts: 1542 - Karma: 96
Honestly sometimes you have to burn bridges and in this case I would not think twice about dealing with Grenade ever again. If his photos are good enough (which they are) then companies will continue to buy them the correct way regardless of this issue. I feel this guy is standing up for the countless amount of photographers that get walked all over by large companies and this needs to be exploited. I applaud this guy for taking a risk that most photographers are scared to take for the sake of keeping a reputation with scumbag companies.
Jul 26 2010 4:10PM
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Microcosm
Posts: 4765 - Karma: 153
Luckily in the US the second you snap a picture the photo technically has a copyright in your name. Whether you decide to waive that copyright is completely up to the photographer. No watermark does not imply no copyright protection by any means. Situations very similar to this one happen every single day,and it's only the photographers who are vigilant enough to pursue those who stole their images who aren't getting screwed.

Grenade Gloves have always sucked a lot, and now I have one more reason to never purchase their products.
Jul 26 2010 5:13PM
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Microcosm
Posts: 4765 - Karma: 153
With the increased accessibility of high end cameras the photography industry as a whole has been seriously devalued in the past several years. I'm sure whatever price he was asking wasn't unreasonable for a professional photographer. To get that shot he needs a lot of very expensive equipment, money to travel, and a whole lot of experience. Even though the photo won't be as widely viewed as some other mediums he should still get the money he deserves out of it. Especially if they stole the image in the first place.


(sorry double post)
Jul 26 2010 5:19PM
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h.yfoskett
Posts: 285 - Karma: 219
what a prick you are so right get your attonery in they owe you MONEY!!!! i was just woundering how much was you charging?
Jul 26 2010 5:38PM
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Nati513
Posts: 679 - Karma: 25

 This is what the photgrapher posted-

Thanks for all the comments. Even the ones that make me look like an asshole are valuable to me.

Some of you have been emailing Mr. Condorelli to express your feelings on the matter. Sweet. The support I’m getting on this makes me feel like I’m doing the right thing. I guess he’s been writing back telling people that I’ve been paid and that all I wanted was to have the photo removed etc. To date, I have not been paid and I never asked them to take the photo down. All I wanted to be paid for my work. I’ve been following the posts on newschoolers.com and TGR and taking into account everything thats been said.

For the record, the emails I posted have not been edited whatsoever. I will admit that I omitted 2 emails I sent Jordan in the early days of this battle because he didn’t reply and they just added length to an already lengthy blog post. Anyone Interested in the entire gmail thread is free to ask me for it.

I wasn’t asking for a huge amount of money. The photo cost me more to take than I was asking when you factor in gas to Revelstoke, sled gas, Tim Hortons, beer etc.

I didn’t really expect this to blow up like it did. Now that it has, I’m not quitting.

Jul 26 2010 5:42PM
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CKpolicy
Posts: 2587 - Karma: 2,463
fuck danny kass.
Jul 26 2010 6:37PM
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10...nuffsaid
Posts: 308 - Karma: 54
very true. the example was a bit sketch but all analogies fall apart eventually.
Jul 26 2010 7:20PM
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Allegrath.
Posts: 250 - Karma: 30
In the words of Happy Gilmore, "The price is wrong, bitch."
Jul 26 2010 7:25PM
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ARH
Posts: 117 - Karma: 14
Thats such bull. 
Jul 27 2010 12:24AM
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danderson.
Posts: 6560 - Karma: 5,252

Fuck Grenade. Boycott Grenade all day.

Jul 27 2010 12:44AM
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cfox
Posts: 2286 - Karma: 38
not ever buying grenade!
Jul 27 2010 12:47AM
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Nati513
Posts: 679 - Karma: 25
I mean the emails are bad enough showing how unlegit they are but the ceo is saying that he payed the photographer when he still hasnt.
Jul 27 2010 1:52AM
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paone
Posts: 593 - Karma: 266
That fucking blows.  I hate it when they do that.  Arson Clothing did that to my buddy couple years ago.  He was smart tho he sent the watermarked photo in and threatened to sue if they didnt pay him
Jul 27 2010 2:04AM
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uberalles
Posts: 52 - Karma: 46
Chris, remember when I told you to start shooting more skiers? This is why. Snowboard industry equals no money or passion anymore. But of course there are some khaki pant wearing scammers who only care about climbing the corporate ladder and not the industry running ski companies too. (especially in Canada) I will be happy to discuss this with you. Fortunately and ironically there are some core ski brands that have "khaki and turtleneck free" offices and who actually care about athletes, photographers, product, their own staff, reputation and the industry as a whole. Phew.
Jul 27 2010 9:27AM
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Nati513
Posts: 679 - Karma: 25
 
Jul 27 2010 3:23PM
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albatross.
Posts: 4380 - Karma: 772
if an old asshole who has nothing to do with the sport running a "core" company bums you guys out, you really dont have to look past skiing to get your hate on.

nice to see everyone backing a good cause though
Jul 27 2010 8:38PM
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fdsa
Posts: 686 - Karma: 19
Grenade did a shitty thing, but it's photog's job to cover his own ass. Super low res pic with watermarks all over that shit. Not just one.

This is kindergarten shit.

Nobody else is going to look out for you. You've gotta look out for yourself.
Jul 27 2010 8:45PM
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fdsa
Posts: 686 - Karma: 19
That said, I don't buy grenade and definitely won't start now.
Jul 27 2010 8:46PM
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Joe_Brogan
Posts: 360 - Karma: 11
i wanna know if the photographer gets his money
Jul 27 2010 10:12PM
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Nurgle
Posts: 1249 - Karma: 15
The Photographer is a dumbass in the first place. Why not place a simple watermark on the fucking photo?
Second of all, Why didnt the team rider inform them of the photographers policies?

And if your bitching about not supporting them because of this, you should all probally stop driving cars, because oil companies are evil too.
Jul 27 2010 10:33PM
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MN_Nice
Posts: 3824 - Karma: 56
Because he probably wasn't expecting a company to jack his work like complete assholes maybe?
Jul 27 2010 10:35PM
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j.bird
Posts: 6680 - Karma: 15
you are VERY misinformed.
Jul 27 2010 10:37PM
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chipkalback
Posts: 2255 - Karma: 30
I can't believe how fast and how wide the news has spread. Every snow sports forum I know of has heard of this story, and PDN (Photo District News) even tweeted this story as well.

Hopefully this is a big eye opener to the snow industry (not just snowboarding, skiing as well) that you can only jerk around so many photographers/videographers/athletes before it will come back to bite you in the ass.

Unfortunately, I think the 'core' audience that Grenade once attracted, who I assume would also be the ones truly pissed about this, are no longer their market. In my opinion, bro's shopping for snow gear at their local Zumiez store seem to be the ones supporting Grenade these days, and I doubt they would even know about this story, let alone care enough to stop supporting a company who in turn does not support the industry in which they make their profits.

What I really can't stand are the people saying "Well it's the fault of the photographer because he should've known to send them a low res. watermarked copy."

A.) Of course it would've helped, but it shouldn't be something he HAS to do. Just like the bike shop down the road shouldn't HAVE to put security tags on a bike. They assume that people aren't going to hop on a bike they like and ride it out of the store, or else legal action would be taken.

B.) Trust me, in rare instances, sending low res. images with a watermark (aside from centered) still won't deter people from stealing the image.

While it's unfortunate that this photographer has had to deal with this, I'm happy that so many people/athletes/TM's/CEO's and others are seeing that this is the kind of thing that happens far too often in the snow industry, and I'm sure other action sports industries as well.

On a related note, a rising tide floats all boats, and hopefully this might open the eyes of a few amateurs giving stuff away for little or nothing to different companies (intentionally or unintentionally) under the guise of "exposure", that if the image is valuable enough for a company to use it in their blog/catalog/ad/website, then it's valuable enough to pay the photographer who did the work.
Jul 29 2010 12:12PM
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Malczyk
Posts: 1435 - Karma: 1,895
profound Chip..i like it. The issue comes down to just stupid people working in high positions, which happens more often than not in small industries. This guy's employee f-ed up and the pres did a bad job fixing the wrong. He chose to burn the bridge instead and it blew up in his face (which can happen easily with the internets and all). If a brands policy is to not pay for blog pics, that's all good as long as the contributor agrees to it.

2 things here which apply to life and business:

1. don't use things that aren't yours

2. Inevitably you will use something that's not yours and if you are using them, make sure all parties are in agreement to the terms, in writing.

my 2 cents.
Jul 29 2010 12:53PM
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chipkalback
Posts: 2255 - Karma: 30
Thanks Josh

Jul 29 2010 1:52PM
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Astomp
Posts: 10090 - Karma: 344
1st. ive done a bit of photog work with a pretty good photographer and whenever he was outta town the athletes would call me for photo they wanted to see. i usually just sent the small jpegs unless they asked for the bigger photos. but even still its common practice to send photos to riders then they show the sponsor and from there the sponsor says they want it.


2nd. team rider doesnt do the photograph negotiations or talk about circulation or where it is used or how long it is used. so why would he say anything about that shit? he rides. thats what he does.

3rd. that was a broad retarded comparison.
Jul 29 2010 2:25PM
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Astomp
Posts: 10090 - Karma: 344
i still like grenade too. i usually wont buy it. just the ceo is a bit low it seems. just get the man his money. simple as that.
Jul 29 2010 2:27PM
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Davidchiuda
Posts: 89 - Karma: 15
I'm posting this all over the Internet to wreck grenade even though it's a shit company.hope things work out for chris messervey.
Jul 29 2010 3:48PM
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wintersway
Posts: 5115 - Karma: 128
damn i am fucking dumb
didnt know all that copyright shit, sorry guys

either way though, the situation is fucked and shouldnt have to happen
Jul 29 2010 5:51PM
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ngates_EC
Posts: 1464 - Karma: 807
wow, what assholes at grenade. Never purchased anything from them and never will now. Totally understand why the photographer is pissed, not just for money obv.
Jul 29 2010 6:55PM
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