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Thinking thread

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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Its going to be a long read, but it'll make your head hurt.

Every particle in our universe has a history - its been in location X with a speed of Y, and by simple computation, one must agree that if you know both of these facts about a particle, you can predict with utmost certainty where the particle will be in the future. Now, imagine we had this information for every particle in the universe. We know every particles past and present speed and location. In fact, if we had a super-super computer, we could enter all of these values and set up a model that would describe the entire universe, down to every last atom. Of course, such a computer and such information would be nearly impossible to attain, but the point is that this information about every particles past and present does in fact exist.

Everything is predetermined - particles can only interact with particles in one predictable way. Thus, if one were to know all the information about every particle, we could know where every particle will be, at any time in the future. If we took this model and ran it forwards, we could predict the future. We could see what atoms bounce off other atoms, and on the larger scale, what stars and galaxies interact and how. (Remember, super-super computer) In fact, if we concentrated on solely the atoms on Earth, we could predict human behavior, since our behavior is nothing more than a cascade of chemical reactions resulting from outside stimulation. This is indeed a very strange though to behold. The past history and set courses of particles dictate that I get the urge to write this long-winded philosophical inquiry, and that inevitably you are sitting there reading this text.

So we have a problem. If everything is predetermined (be it as it may that we could never possibly get all the information to 'know' and see the future, since the amount of information is truly massive), than should we hold people accountable of their actions? If there is only one future, we really have no choice - choice is an illusion, a comfort, as the inevitable predictable cascade of particle interactions drives our universe forwards.

So... what of murders and rapists? If there really is no choice in the universe, if particle-particle interactions only have one outcome and if the future is predetermined; should we blame them for their actions?
Jun 21 2010 3:39PM
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.frenchy
Posts: 18221 - Karma: 12,323
lolwut
Jun 21 2010 3:45PM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
You do realize you put this in NSG right????




I think the fault of this thinking lies in chaos....the unpredictable, it is a force of nature you know.
Jun 21 2010 3:45PM
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Utard
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 305

Don't the theories of quantum mechanics say that particle behavior is completely random though?

Jun 21 2010 3:46PM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
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Jun 21 2010 3:47PM
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Balto
Posts: 25985 - Karma: 4,404
is rowen still high?
Jun 21 2010 3:49PM
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panojibber
Posts: 3382 - Karma: 216
One outcome? While the information for a particle's velocity may exist, we don't have the capability to measure them. Protons and electrons are about as good as we can do, and we still lack a full understanding of how they work. Neutrinos, photons, antimatter all exist and we don't have a nearly complete understanding of them. Plus you get to wave particle duality and your entire theory of predeterminism breaks down completely. Not to mention we don't understand subatomic gravity and its nuances, as well as particles below the subatomic level such as quarks. The understanding necessary to either prove this theory or support it well simply does not exist at this time.

However, if what you're saying IS true, then nothing we debate here matters anyways because it is predetermined and the outcome of the argument is already decided. Plus, we can't do anything about the punishment or judgement of people for their actions because that is already decided. By your logic, it wouldn't matter what we decide in this conversation because it is already determined.

On top of that, the quantam level of matter works in very strange ways - particles are able to be in 2 places at once, things we understand as particles become waves, and things as immaterial as thought are capable of having strange influence over the particles - to believe that particles influence everything is an inaccurate perception because any major action starts with thought - and thought dictates how the particles we control are used and designated to different tasks. Realistically it is free consciousness that determines how we act, because although hormones, drugs, and situations influence our thoughts, they are more responsible for altering our state of mind than completely controlling it. There is no drug or particle that makes any one person act in a set way or definitively controls them, therefore your theory is false.
Jun 21 2010 3:49PM
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Darth_Veeder
Posts: 1054 - Karma: -26
my threads.
Jun 21 2010 3:51PM
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PASKIINGSUCKS
Posts: 9097 - Karma: 777
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Jun 21 2010 3:54PM
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Hood.[scdb]
Posts: 564 - Karma: 14
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Jun 21 2010 3:55PM
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Polar_Beer
Posts: 1515 - Karma: 228
fairly sure that he has to be at this point.
Jun 21 2010 3:56PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
you're my density

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Jun 21 2010 4:01PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
You can't predict the location of an electron.

Chemical reactions and half lives are functions of probability, as is much of the universe, for this reason you could not predict the location of any particle.

Jun 21 2010 4:02PM
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cheddafries
Posts: 1016 - Karma: 52
): and i just got rid of my head ache to
Jun 21 2010 4:07PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,850
 its not like all particles are the same and will always interact in the same way. Also we do not know how all particles work so it is imposible to perdict their path.   Think about this: everyone has a different brain, therefore it is impossible to map how they all will interact.
Jun 21 2010 4:07PM
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IceCreamer
Posts: 1587 - Karma: 27
Determinism. Thanks for the intelligent topic, I'll post some stuff later.
Jun 21 2010 4:09PM
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PaleCelery
Posts: 7228 - Karma: 609
fkldsja fioehfdjkl ff
Jun 21 2010 4:27PM
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BrewskiJr
Posts: 5738 - Karma: 1,478
take humans for example. Yes, we are completely made up of particles. But we are given the capacity to choose what decisions we make every day which are unpredictable. The problem is that this "idea", so to speak, can only be based on a single particle. But there are other things that can overrule what that particle may do, such as our free will. Not very scientific but still.. hope that makes sense
Jun 21 2010 4:28PM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
yeah i started just running through the rest after like the 3rd line, i didnt understand your assertion that we could predict where shit will be at all
Jun 21 2010 4:44PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Okay, I agree with everyone that having all the information at hand is completely impossible. Humans will never be able to do computation at this extreme level. BUT, the fact remains that this information is OUT THERE, however unattainable it may be. IT EXISTS for every particle, no matter how inaccurate WE may be able to measure it.

On a quantum level, things do seem to act strange. This may be because our full understanding of this level of physics is not fully understood (enter a unifying theory of everything here), but imagine this for the non-quantum stuff, just at the level of a particle.

I'm not proposing nothing matters, I'm just proposing a scientific basis for a determined world. Scary to think that the world having a ultimate inescapable fate may not be just a religious concept, no?
Jun 21 2010 5:00PM
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Deezy
Posts: 4580 - Karma: 1,004
thats BS. there are way to many outcomes. i can choose to miss a letter on my keyboard and backspace, changing the future? naw there are way to many variables to consider, humans... we choose what we do, we are not at all forced in any way. so how can we have one outcome.

so if i should be a huge business man and then buy a nuke with my money and shoot the moon, or blow up the earth therefore fucking up lots of shit. ok. To be that businessman and make that money i have to do well in school, right? yeah. So if this is already determined that i will shoot a nuke at something. why cant i just fuck about in math class not actually study, to become a business man, i need good marks, if i dont get them then i will not get my nuke, thats ME, choosing what i want to do. will i still get my nuke?

am i understanding what u say? my head hurts.
Jun 21 2010 5:04PM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
well yeah... religious people arent the only ones who are determinists. i used to have a ladyfriend that id always argue determinism vs free will with all the time. i feel like its one of those unwinnable arguments for many reasons.. crazy shit to think about though. fun to debate
Jun 21 2010 5:09PM
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james44
Posts: 3323 - Karma: 578
42
Jun 21 2010 5:10PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
The thing is that missing that letter isnt chance at all. Your actions and decisions and control of your body are all dictated by particle interactions. If I was at the master controls of the universe and had all the information about all the particles in the universe, I could predict with utmost certainty where your finger would 'mistakenly' go. It would be the most complicated and complex machine ever made, and I am NOT saying its even possible to create. Again, the simple fact that this information EXISTS brings all future events into a predictable pattern.

Again, if someone had ALL the information about ALL the particles in the universe and had a COMPLETE understanding of the universes laws, you could predict with exacting certainty EVERY particles interaction and fate, and thus predict the future. There is only ONE future via this train of thought, and thus, our decisions and choices arent choices, they are predictable and we are fated to one single timeline.
Jun 21 2010 5:10PM
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SmokeyTheBear
Posts: 492 - Karma: 24
CHAOS THEORY. The ways in which particles react is not always predictable, and according to quantum theory(assuming it is correct) since everything is governed by probability there is a chance, however small, that things will not behave according to the laws that appear to always be followed.

Plus I'm not sure if it's for all particles (which is a much too vague a term) but it is actually impossible to know both the location and the velocity of an electron. It's just science.

Whether things are predetermined or not, we are unimaginably far away from even hoping to figure it out.
Jun 21 2010 5:17PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Again, got to get away from the human understanding aspect of this. The idea isnt supposing at all that humans could literally understand ANY of this, but the fact that this information is out there and that it EXISTS supposes all this to be true.
Jun 21 2010 5:24PM
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Deezy
Posts: 4580 - Karma: 1,004
^^ lol

and just because it SHOULD be true, does not mean that it IS true, they are very different things.

to many variables effecting this Y aspect.
Jun 21 2010 5:30PM
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SmokeyTheBear
Posts: 492 - Karma: 24
it doesn't exist, because there is no set way in which two particles will react.

there is an overwhelming chance of one outcome over the infinite others, but there is no guarantee of which one will occur
Jun 21 2010 5:33PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Again, this is our current understanding of quantum mechanics, which many physicists think is an incomplete understanding, because there is chance and unpredictability. Just because we dont understand it and have to rely on chance doesnt mean that there isnt a fully predictable model out there that describes with absolute certainty particle/particle interactions on a quantum level. If you want more proof of our incomplete understanding, again, the lack of a universal theory of everything.
Jun 21 2010 5:56PM
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panojibber
Posts: 3382 - Karma: 216
Somebody had better fucking quote my previous post because I spent a long time typing that hahaha.
Jun 21 2010 6:02PM
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IceCreamer
Posts: 1587 - Karma: 27
How would you account for Heisenberg uncertainty principle?
Jun 21 2010 10:27PM
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panojibber
Posts: 3382 - Karma: 216
Very good point.
Jun 21 2010 10:28PM
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Chompo.
Posts: 4952 - Karma: 88
This doesn't seem like the usual summer nsg for some reason
Jun 21 2010 10:36PM
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SmokeyTheBear
Posts: 492 - Karma: 24
But it doesn't mean that there IS one either. Both of our arguments depend on this point, I guess, so as they are they are next to useless. I guess I have more physicists on my side though haha
Jun 21 2010 10:50PM
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FUUUCK
Posts: 18426 - Karma: 4,888
Jun 21 2010 10:51PM
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Wall_Nut
Posts: 629 - Karma: 113
The only problem with this theory, Rowen, is that it asserts that particles DO travel in a predictable manner. Just because you know the data for past and present particle locations does not mean you will be able to predict the next. As you said, humans simply don't have the capacity to capture this sort of information, so our 'theories' on particle predictability are just that: Theories. I believe it is completely possible to predict the future, but I'm not sure if it is through the understanding of particle locations. I have personally seen the future in my dreams many times, and then had a de ja vu when the moment actually happens. I am not sure how this is linked to particles, I do not think it is for us humans to comprehend.

That being said, I find this theory very compelling.
Jun 21 2010 10:53PM
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skiingpimp
Posts: 1176 - Karma: 31
Heisenburg uncertainty principle???? Can't know exact position and momentum at any moment in time.
Jun 21 2010 11:06PM
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apcaipse
Posts: 2168 - Karma: 25



Jun 21 2010 11:08PM
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tayhawx
Posts: 135 - Karma: 114
this. quantum mechanics always fucks up everything.
Jun 21 2010 11:10PM
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p-fo
Posts: 9372 - Karma: 6,155
Rowen is almost completely correct. He is correct that all things are determined by an extremely complex interaction of universal laws. But for the information gathering part he kind of glossed over the time issue. You must know this information at an exact time. The problem is that it is impossible to know a particle's position and velocity at precisely the same time.
Velocity is calculated by timing an object's motion from one point in space to another. If an object is in motion, it is never at one single point for any length of time. Basically, by the time you have learned that the particle took x amount of time to get from A to B, it is no longer at B. Thus, though you know its current velocity (assuming it is constant, which is highly unlikely) you no longer know its current position. The problem is that, by its nature, calculating velocity takes time. You would think that it should be possible to look at every particle separately and determine where everything came from, link it all back to one point in time, then play it all back, but you can never know with complete certainty what took place in the past at that point in time. So then you would only be working with probabilities.
I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but it is the hole in this that makes it theoretically impossible too. Good thread though, I'm interested to hear what others have to say.
Jun 21 2010 11:19PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
.... alright, I dunno how many times I have to reiterate this, but you guys are getting caught up in the mechanics of my example. The fact that we, as humans, get it fucked up when we try to observe particle interactions DOES NOT FACTOR into the fact that this information EXISTS. The fact that it exists (Let me repeat that, the fact that this information exists alone) gives this possibility of one sole predetermined future credibility.

Again, gaps in our understanding and measuring systems do not matter. If you are able to measure all the elements in a system and have all the information about everything, you should be able to predict what that system will do. Impossible as it may be to actually measure and calculate this for the entire universe, the fact that this is possible brings into light some certainly interesting questions, at least for me.... you guys kinda seeing the bigger picture I'm trying to illustrate here?
Jun 21 2010 11:29PM
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ljs
Posts: 501 - Karma: 1,181
mt
Jun 21 2010 11:32PM
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Broseph_Stalin
Posts: 3745 - Karma: 178
i didn't know that it was predictable

i always thought that the future in our universe is only a giant series of probabilities that interact among one another... i could be wrong





Jun 21 2010 11:34PM
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panojibber
Posts: 3382 - Karma: 216
Totally understand what you're saying, so I'm going to repost something I wrote in my earlier post because nobody wants to actually respond to it (with some minor edits).

"On top of that, the quantam level of matter works in very strange ways - particles are able to be in 2 places at once, things we understand as particles become waves, and things as immaterial as thought are capable of having strange influence over the particles - to believe that particles influence everything is an inaccurate perception because any major action starts with thought - and thought dictates how the particles we control are used and designated to different tasks (think: body). Realistically it is free consciousness that determines how we act, because although hormones, drugs, and situations influence our thoughts, they are more responsible for altering our state of mind than completely controlling it. There is no drug or particle that makes any one person act in a set way or definitively controls them."

I'll probably write a little more on this later if I'm baked and feel like it.
Jun 21 2010 11:36PM
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Snowcase
Posts: 11456 - Karma: 634
Welcome to... The Matrix

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Jun 21 2010 11:41PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
At this point, i'm only going to give this a few moments thought...


1.Every particle in our universe has a history - its been in location X with a speed of Y,

2.if you know both of these facts about a particle, you can predict with utmost certainty where the particle will be in the future.

3.particles can only interact with particles in one predictable way.


1. from my basic understanding of quantum theory this is only roughly true...a particle has a particular location when observed, but may in fact be in many potential locations at once.

[img]http://superstruny.aspweb.cz/images/fyzika/quantum/quantum_split.png[.img]

2. & 3. are also subject to scrutiny, only in the boring philosophical manner which also must grant that skepticism can ask questions that can't be answered. I do not want to say i am taking the side of the skeptic but to say that you can be certain that things will be continue to be as they have been is not 'as true' as ¬(p.¬p)


It may very well be that the only thing that is constant is the unpredictability of the future, and that only in the moment that the present is observed a particle becomes definable as you said.

of course that means we could all blip out of existence with out even knowing it, or we don't even realize that is exactly what happens, with something else resuming in place moment after moment.

this all being the case, the computer would only be able to predict what might probably happen in the future, dependent on the assumption of all things staying the same.








poop. I don't want to make it sound i wanted to let the air out of your tires. please keep thinking on this, and enjoy inspiration http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/









Jun 21 2010 11:41PM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15951 - Karma: 9,451
so were all fucked is what youre trying to say
Jun 21 2010 11:41PM
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lineskier10
Posts: 11339 - Karma: 796
scientists dont know enough to prove most of the shit you are saying so i think its safe to say we have free will
Jun 21 2010 11:44PM
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Benson23
Posts: 1713 - Karma: 15
that was a complete mindfuck. / Threads for when im not half passed out.
Jun 21 2010 11:44PM
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Snowcase
Posts: 11456 - Karma: 634
How ironic. Your icon that is.
Jun 21 2010 11:45PM
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Benson23
Posts: 1713 - Karma: 15
yeah really. Fuck what a good read though
Jun 21 2010 11:46PM
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