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Choosing the right video camera

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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
Ok NS, I need your help. This one is targeted towards Allen since he has used a few cameras I am interested in. So this summer I think I will finally invest in a decent camera. I am thinking a HMC40, FX7, or DVX100b. Before you tell me, get a HV30 noob, I have experience as a photographer. I understand things like exposure, white balance, etc. I have no interest in putting this camera on auto and pressing record. I am thinking of getting one of these cameras for a few reasons.
1. I want to make edits of me and my friends skiing. I'm not going to make any full length movies (yet), but I want a good quality video that won't make me want to shoot myself (we all know how painful it is watching videos were you can't even see the skier).

2. My mom is going to take a few film courses. She did a project as an intern directing a professional documentary. She wants to take it to the next level, so she decided to go back to school. Although the course has to do with more script writing and stuff, a nice camera is always nice to have. She would probably pay for a small amount of this camera so she could use it.

3. I love videography and would shoot things like wildlife and people. I live in a big city (Toronto) with tons of interesting things to shoot. Also, I have a cottage that also offers great things to shoot. I am also taking a film course next year. Its just grade 11 film so it isn't a big deal, but a nice camera would really help.

Here's were you come in. I'm not looking to spend tons of money. I'm not getting a camera like an HVX or HMC150. I want something that will get the job done on a budget. HD would be nice, but I have seen a lot of footage from the DVX that looks really nice. Also, the DVX is about $800 more then the HMC40/FX7. I have read allen rip apart the HMC40 and the FX7, but I think they would be good for me. They both even have handles!!! I like how the HMC doesn't have tapes, but my computer isnt the fastest so hopefully the AVCHD doesnt rip it apart. Allen said he didnt mind the FX7, and the footage from it didn't look bad. The DVX will obviously have better manual controls/low light performance but I like the idea of HD in these times. Sorry for the really long post. It will probably bore you to death but I could really use some help.

P.S. I saw this N.I.G. edit. It says it's filmed with the DVX100b, but on vimeo the HD feature is on. The other DVX footage I saw didnt have this. Was this a typo or what? Link: http://vimeo.com/10420278
Apr 26 2010 5:41PM
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TomasAa
Posts: 585 - Karma: 699
If you have experience as a photographer, why not go with a HDSLR? Like the 7D or t2i?
If you buy, lets say a t2i, you could also invest in a LCDVF, rode mic and some primes.

check out philipbloom.co.uk if you want to know more about HDSLRs
Apr 26 2010 5:57PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
I just bought a Canon XSI so I don't want such an overlap.
Apr 26 2010 5:58PM
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eheath
Posts: 61583 - Karma: 122,891
The NIG edit was filmed with a DVX and then upresed to make it HD. Not sure how hard this is, but Evan is real good at what he does and it could be a breeze for him. Id suggest hitting him up personally about this.


As for your camera selection, its tough. DVX has alot of manual control and can look REALLY good. The HMC40 seems like a dope new little camera that also has roughly the same amount of manual controls as the DVX but smaller color chips (dvx has 1/3"hmc has 1/4"). I would stay away from the fx7 completely, its not the best camera. If you wanted an HDV camera id suggest finding a used fx1 or canon axh1 (could easily find for same price as cameras listed).



You said you didn't want an hmc150 or an hpx but it sounds like its almost what you need. You want a camera with good manual controls but you also want HD. The hmc150 would be a much better choice than an hmc40 and would only be 1000-1500 more, which honestly i think would be worth it, but thats just me.


hmc40>fx7 if you want

dvx>both if you want the best colors and the most control.

used fx1/axh1 if you want hd but HDV

hmc150 (or fx1000 or new axh1) if you want to step up your budget
Apr 26 2010 5:58PM
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eheath
Posts: 61583 - Karma: 122,891
if you want hd in avchd



What are your computer stats?
Apr 26 2010 5:59PM
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dergblerp
Posts: 1303 - Karma: 77
Absolutely check out Video DSLR's.  While people have mixed feelings about these cameras, I've seen some amazing footage come out of them.  I work at a production company that used to use Super16 along with the Sony EX1, but now they've switched over to the Canon 7D 100%.  (Obviously if the budget allows, we go for RED or 35).  As far as the cameras you mentioned, the DVX100 is a great choice, but only if you buy used.  It shoots 24p and has XLR ports, which are pretty important for actual filmmaking.  The Fx7 is probably the worst of the 3 you mentioned.  Although it shoots HD and the DVX doesn't, it's quite outdated, and it's not really in the same ballpark as the DVX or the HMC40.  The HMC40 would be a cool camera to get, although I hear that it's hard to manually control the gain (similar-ish to ISO in still photography)  so in low light, you can get grain in the image.  I've never used this camera, only the hmc 50/HVX, though so I don't actually know this for sure. 

Whatever you choose, don't forget about audio!  If you're doing anything besides ski edits, you absolutely need an external microphone (there are lots of different kinds, so research for your own need).  Sound quality is more important than picture quality, so don't skimp.
Apr 26 2010 6:00PM
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TomasAa
Posts: 585 - Karma: 699
Oh and btw, that Dale talkington edit is shoot in SD qualtiy... And upressed to HD later. SD scaled up to HD does not look to good IMO
Apr 26 2010 6:00PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
Thanks. I might save up a bit longer and get a nicer camera. Would the learning curve between a HMC40/DVX be much different from the HMC150 or XHA1 (I assume thats what you are refering to when you said axh1). Also, the HMC150 and XHA1 were about the same price. Which one would you prefer?
Apr 26 2010 6:07PM
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eheath
Posts: 61583 - Karma: 122,891
hah i always get the canon letters mixed up.

Well the hmc/dvx are all gonna be really similar since they are all panasonic, not sure about the xha1.


People have been suggesting hddslrs which in your case might be something to check out. I personally prefer a camera that is made for shooting video, but hddslrs definitely do the job when needed and the added DOF is always nice. But, personally, i think you should get a video camera, not a still camera, but again thats just me many other will tell you hddslrs are better, as where i disagree. But thats a whole different story.
Apr 26 2010 6:14PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
Thanks for the help everyone. I would love to hear allen's opinion too as he has used a few of these cameras. Ill let you know when I make my decision.
Apr 26 2010 6:19PM
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TomasAa
Posts: 585 - Karma: 699
I own the canon xha1, but have also used the hmc150. Personally I like the hmc150 most. Mainly because it can shoot 60P, and the colors look more organic to me. Also the xha1 is really heavy, and if your looking into steadycam stuff, the hmc wouldnt need as heavy counter weight as the a1..


Apr 26 2010 6:33PM
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dergblerp
Posts: 1303 - Karma: 77
I agree.  I also own an XHA1, but I did a shoot with 5 HMC150's with letus adapters, and I was really impressed.  Once you start toying with the tapeless workflow, you don't go back.  It's really worth it.
Apr 26 2010 7:48PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,945

Most of what I have to say has already been said I guess.

If you want to see DVX footage that is not Evan Williams mastered, watch my vids.  It's decent, but not as good as his.  I'm still working on that...

...as for HDDSLRs, be careful, because you had mentioned that you wanted your friends to film you as well.  That may be easier with just a camera that was made for video...not sure why, could be a lot of reasons, but it applies for me.  Just a thought.

Good luck B.  If you're thinking that you want to get a camera and stick with it for a long time, think about tapeless workflow.  Tapes are already considered by some (not me) to be a dying media, and in 5 years even I won't disagree that they'll be fading in terms of ease of use, practicality, and quality.  If you're thinking long term like that, look into nicer stuff.

Don't worry about your computer, too.  Its easier to upgrade a computer than a camera - you can always add RAM/memory, but to up your camera you basically buy a new one.

Just my two cents yo, hopefully it gets ya somewhere.  Good luck!

Apr 26 2010 8:32PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
DVX100b beats all those cameras in terms of image control, by far. The only advantage the HMC40 has over the DVX is that it shoots HD. Forget the FX7, its shit.

For the money, the DSLRs win. They provide MUCH better optical control than regular video cameras, and cost much less, even with a couple fast primes. If you don't want to get stuck using fixed/zoom lenses, this is really your only option.
Apr 27 2010 1:02AM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
Thanks for the input guys. I will probably save up for the HMC150 unless someone convinces me otherwise.
Apr 27 2010 5:48PM
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1337
Posts: 31053 - Karma: 29,223
i wish I had/could get the money for an hmc150. But I just started to use my t2i today and LOVE it. but go with the HMC if you can afford one.
Apr 27 2010 6:08PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Awesome camera; go for it! It's sharper than the hpx170, and much cheaper to shoot.

Although I suggest you download MPEG Streamclip from squared5.com and use that to convert the AVCHD files to something you can edit with.
Apr 28 2010 2:05PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,945
Its freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :)
Apr 28 2010 3:41PM
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TomasAa
Posts: 585 - Karma: 699
t2i is a great choice, but looks like mr Anderson wants the hmc150..
btw upressed dvx footy looks ok, but not great
Apr 28 2010 4:09PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
i would honestly love a t2i but i already have a canon rebel that i got a few monthes ago. i would lose a lot of money selling it or i would have a huge overlapped camera quiver.
Apr 28 2010 4:38PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
BUMP. Someone is selling a XHA1 on here for $2500. It has less then 20 hours on the heads and comes with 5 HD tapes, mic, all the cords, and 2 batteries. Sounds like a damn good deal to me. What do you guys think about it?
May 3 2010 7:57PM
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dergblerp
Posts: 1303 - Karma: 77
Go for it.  Make sure you stick to one type of tape.  It doesn't really matter which one, but once you choose one, stay with it.  The differen brands use different lubricants which can gunk up your heads.  Even DV vs HDV tapes can cause problems.  (Note: you can record 1080i onto DV tapes exactly like HDV tapes.  don't be fooled.)
May 3 2010 8:07PM
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screamin_seamen
Posts: 619 - Karma: 551
Thats what im talkin about! haha yea ive used two standard sony tapes and the rest the sony dvc HD tapes
May 3 2010 8:09PM
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ReedSkis~
Posts: 2122 - Karma: 98
I'm selling my HMC-40 if you are interested

Here are the details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95peFuKwQ18
May 3 2010 11:21PM
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ReedSkis~
Posts: 2122 - Karma: 98
^Whoops, wrong link

https://newschoolers.com/web/forums/readthread/thread_id/527705/
May 3 2010 11:22PM
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1337
Posts: 31053 - Karma: 29,223
Stick with the HMC150 imo, tapeless media can be such a pain sometimes. I love using SD cards
May 4 2010 12:00AM
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eheath
Posts: 61583 - Karma: 122,891
That was a ridiculous statement haha
May 4 2010 12:17AM
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1337
Posts: 31053 - Karma: 29,223
hahah true that, but since switching to cards i've cut down editing time so much, i'm not saying its the best, but they are definitely better than miniDV imo. Price wise they are pretty good too, I couldn't justify spending 300+ on a p2 card
May 4 2010 12:38AM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
...how is that a bad thing?
May 4 2010 12:40AM
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eheath
Posts: 61583 - Karma: 122,891
You said tapeless was a pain but you loved your sd card, it was just confusing and im still confused.
May 4 2010 1:03AM
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family_vacation
Posts: 6200 - Karma: 7,841
SD cards contain little tiny tapes. Duh
May 4 2010 1:04AM
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dergblerp
Posts: 1303 - Karma: 77
Haha +k
May 4 2010 2:44AM
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1337
Posts: 31053 - Karma: 29,223
I guess i was trying to say that SD cards are way better than DV tapes. I'm not saying they are the best in terms of transfer rates (p2 blows them out of the water), but they work perfectly for video. Is there something wrong with SD heath?
May 4 2010 3:49AM
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eheath
Posts: 61583 - Karma: 122,891
Other than the low transfer rates, theyre cheaper, smaller, p2 is just ill cause of the mbps.
May 4 2010 3:55AM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
Bumping this. I must admit, I was a bit skeptical of DSLRs at first. Now, the more I watch footage from the 7D and T2i, the more my mind is blown. I will most likely get the the 7D body and buy another lens. Any recommendations for lens? I'm thinking the Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8. Dont want to spend too much more then $600 on the lens.
May 7 2010 10:11PM
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1337
Posts: 31053 - Karma: 29,223
tokina 11-16 f/2.8
May 8 2010 3:20AM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
morning bump. is buying off amazon.com as legit and safe as bh photo? bh's prices were $200 more.

and I know Even will kill me for saying this, but the footage I have seen from the 7d is just as good, if not better then the HMC150.
May 8 2010 10:50AM
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TomasAa
Posts: 585 - Karma: 699
haha, I knew you would change your mind!
As stated before, the tokina 11-16 is a sick lense, but you would maybie start with something else than a wideangle at first..

The canon ef-s 15-85 is really good, but maybie a little expensive. But you dont need to buy a new one...

May 8 2010 11:09AM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
ditch the zoom and start with a fast semi-wide prime that is a good walk-around lens, like a Nikkor 20mm or so...
shooting with primes limits you in a liberating sort of way...
May 8 2010 1:50PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
Ok, big news. Went down to the camera store today. Got my 7d all ready to buy. I had a 17-40mm lens, manfrotto tripod, camera bag, etc. A minute before I payed for it, I had a change of heart. Sorry HDSLR lovers, but you are looking at the new owner of an HMC150. STOKED.
Jun 9 2010 1:26PM
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KarmaInitiative
Posts: 2028 - Karma: 174
congrats on the impulse buy, wish i had that kind of cash to throw around
Jun 9 2010 9:17PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
I am actually returning the HMC in a few days. Can't justify spending that extra 1-2 grand on a camera that people are selling for 7d's. I will really missing auto focus and servo zoom but I can't financially let myself pay $5000 including tax, camera bag, 32gb card.
Jun 9 2010 10:08PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,945
Real decisive, eh? First toward HDDSLRs, then back, now back to them...

To be honest maybe this is less knowing what you want and more of the fact that you don't.

I'm interested in conventional video cameras because HDDSLRs are just so labor intensive, and unfortunately out on the hill I can get lazy. That's nothing to speak of my friends, who don't know shit about cameras except how to press record and where to point them.

My recommendation - if you still want to go conventional but don't want to drop 5k, look used. Since there are no tapes you aren't working with moving parts, and you can find baller used equipment for very cheap on places like dvxuser.com.

I'm sure you've considered this, no?
Jun 9 2010 10:16PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
It was really a money issue, that is all. The reason I chose the HMC over the 7d was because of that exact point. I wanted to be lazy and I wanted my friends to film me.

I have looked at some used HMCs and they are really tempting. Some steals on dvxuser too. I think I am just going to grab the 7d and not look back. It would be good for me to get a new hobby that actually challenges me haha.
Jun 9 2010 10:28PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,945
Fair enough, and I may do that too actually...I'm still undecided. You also have the advantage though of knowing your way around a photo camera - I on the other hand do not, and inversely know about teh vid camz.

I also don't know shit about lenses - all those numbers that go along with the names? Don't mean anything to me.

On average, with a couple decent lenses how much would the 7D package be? Not to thread jack, I just know you'd know so I'm curious.
Jun 9 2010 10:39PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
The 7d will cost you about $1600
If you order it from abesofmaine.com it comes with a 16gb card which saves you even more money.
Then nice lens will be around $500
Maybe grab 50mm f/1.8 prime for artsy shots at $100
Then you will want a nice Tripod $300+
You will want an external mic too. $200

So you are looking at around $2400 for a pretty minimum setup. In the future you might want a viewfinder and more lenses but this will do you good for now.
Jun 9 2010 10:48PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Seriously? You shouldn't be spending over $1,000 on a camera if all you're going to do is shoot auto, unless you're a soccer mom with too much money. If all you want is something with a record button for you and your friends to switch off with, get a GoPro or HV40. a 7D or hmc150 is going to look like shit if you don't know what you're doing. My old GL2 footage looks better than most hpx170 footage I see being passed off today...
Jun 10 2010 4:03PM
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MANDER
Posts: 4017 - Karma: 2,038
I will definitely be shooting in all manual. The reason I want all the auto features is so that I can let my friends film me too. If I was using the 7d, I would need to do all the filming all day. I couldnt really take breaks to ski because my friends are not capable of doing anything besides pressing a button.
Jun 10 2010 4:40PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
So you bought a $5,000 for your friends to film you?
Jun 10 2010 4:47PM
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eheath
Posts: 61583 - Karma: 122,891
When i put together a full 7D package on b&H (of things i needed and wanted) it came to about 4000 bucks. That was like the body, 4 lenses, a mic, viewfinder, glidecam, batterys and uv filters.
Jun 10 2010 4:47PM
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