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January, 2025

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Drill baby drill

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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59



Apr 23 2010 7:36AM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
yep - it would be sweet if the human race didn't have a unquenchable thirst for oil..... you included i'm afraid.... people dont drill holes in the seabed for fun? It's easy to slate them - but unfortunately they're just feeding your daily need for oil and oil based products.... it's everywhere... demand pushes exploration and production offshore, deeper water, more hostile environments, then unfortunately shit like this happens....


Apr 30 2010 4:42PM
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.Natty.
Posts: 1030 - Karma: 84
wow. I never thought a NSG thread could be so educational and legitimate. There is some quality behind the scenes info coming from H8CH and we thank you for that. I'm glad you had an early post saying I'm in the business so dont try to be an expert. This effectively prevented a bunch of kids commenting who think their experts on the subject because they watched a news report on it.

I just learned a shitload about the oil industry and the process of oil drilling. Thank you H8CH!
Apr 30 2010 5:20PM
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prophet
Posts: 4737 - Karma: 1,096
just bumping this past my fail thread...
May 1 2010 2:46PM
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.frenchy
Posts: 18231 - Karma: 12,397

fuckin sick to have info coming from H8CH so we know whats up.

It sucks that people may have died. ++vibes to their family.

May 1 2010 2:55PM
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reBlocke
Posts: 762 - Karma: 1,502
From what I read, this is expected to be a really big deal.

Even though the amount of oil leaked may not be as much as the Exxon Valdez (although given that estimates range from 5,000 to 25,000 barrels per day, and estimates ranging from 30 to 120 days to get the line shut, who knows), it is expected to have a much larger impact on both the environment and the economy. The Exxon Valdez oil slick washed up against rocky coastline, while this is going to wash up against marshlands. 2.5 billion in expected losses for the Louisiana fishing industry (I think most of the shrimp we eat comes from that area, correct?)..

It will be interesting to hear if a cause is determined.. but it really doesn't matter. Even if it was the result of negligence, there will always be human error in drilling. All the safety measures in the world aren't going to stop accidents from happening. It's happened in the past (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unocal_Corporation#Criticism ) and it will continue to happen. If you support offshore drilling, you have to acknowledge that accidents like this will happen.

May 1 2010 6:24PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
most of the shrimp we get comes from asia.
May 1 2010 6:55PM
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General_Ripper
Posts: 3327 - Karma: 189
If it takes years to stop the leak what happens?
May 1 2010 7:00PM
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killa_cam
Posts: 13143 - Karma: 15
click to turn it on
May 1 2010 7:30PM
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theblacktaco
Posts: 1462 - Karma: 82
it avaporates into the air then goes into the clouds and will either rain or snow oil .. thus causing all ski resorst to light on fire if a flame touches the snow .. then dry slopes will be all the skiing ever
May 1 2010 7:33PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
So i read something yesterday that said that oil companies fought to have some sort of additional shutoff valve in emergencies, something they mandate in Scandinavia somewhere (cant remember the specific country).

H8Cwhateveryournamewas is there any truth to that?
May 2 2010 12:21PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
Well it's difficult to determine what you're talking about because it depends if it is a drilling requirement or a production requirement. In production you typically have a boarding shut down valve at the topside riser interface. Permanent installations have many production fail safes after piper alpha in 1988. Drilling is more dynamic- the rigs are mobile, not permanent. The bop has many layers of protection, but a common cause failure here may have caused this tradegy, but it was an uprecedented multiple failure of the bop. All rigs have pressure safety systems on the topside, designed to divert flow to the flare and well, flare it off. These work when the production flow to the rig is exceeding the handling capability of the platform. On the horizon, the divert valves are wide open and you can see the flare burning amongst everything else.... But the blowout force destroyed the topside riser interface. It's also worth noting that they were very close to moving off that location, so you don't know how much demobilization of equipment had occurred at this point. The blow out ultimately happened when they were displacing the riser with seawater in prep for disconnect... That's when the pressure differential flipped.
May 2 2010 3:28PM
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304NordMan
Posts: 2983 - Karma: 525

we can harness energy from water!!!!!! we can harness energy from wind!!!!! what the hell, dont people get it?! wind,water,sun... this stuff never goes away! its endless, and they are the three most efficient energy sources in the world.  why the hell are we out there risking american lives to obtain a resource that will one day run out, when we could be useing wind, water and the sun?

and to all you right wing hypocrits out there, you cant blaim this on obama. if he continues to drill, then he risks lives and the environment. if he doesnt drill, then he gets criticized for relying to much on foriegn oil, and it means paying huge amounts of money to other countries, while we are emerging from a recession.

no one could make the right decision. its not obama's fault; its not anyones fault. we need to use other resources. why hasnt our government understood this yet. aaaaaaaaah!

May 2 2010 3:44PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
yeah, the oillobby fucked shit up, along with other reasons that too much effort was put into developing alternative ressources over the last 100 years.

same with automobile industry. my goodness, ferdinand porsche designed (and realised) the first hybrid-car around 1900 or so. when you look how other things developed alone over the last 20 years (computers, communication, etc) its pretty saddening that we are still using gas-fueled cars.
May 2 2010 4:06PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
Renewable energy is much more expensive than fossil fuels. It is simply too expensive right now.

Its not as if nobody is investing in renewable energy though, but you cant just build 50,000 wind farms overnight. It takes time and money.

My dad works in wind energy and is working on a project to build the first offshore wind farm in North America (on lake Ontario), and the amount of bullshit bureaucracy and whatnot he has to go through is ridiculous. You have to spend years studying migration paths of birds and bats and whatnot to make sure you wont bother them, you have to deal with all the dicks who dont want to see wind turbines or have them anywhere near their property, you have to map the bottom of the lake to make sure you're not disturbing fish habitats etc. etc. Its not like you can just run out there and throw up some turbines and everyone is happy.
May 2 2010 6:34PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
ya i saw that in the paper.

"ahh the wind turbine frequency is turning my brain into jelliess"

its really just shrouded nimbyism.
May 2 2010 6:37PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
why do oil companies not have this problem with offshore drilling...
May 2 2010 6:48PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
mainly because you can't see the rigs from shore.

out of sight out of mind.

and also i believe the distance they are offshore puts the rigs out of the peoples jurisdiction (federal vs state water), therefore they can't say shit about it.
May 2 2010 6:51PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
convenient eh?
May 2 2010 6:53PM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
yean my hometown is a place where theyre trying to put some wind farms in and it's an extremely slow moving process
May 2 2010 7:57PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 101
Because the rigs are temporary and do not interfere with birds.
May 2 2010 8:00PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
birds?
May 3 2010 7:54AM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 101
Talking about the differences between permitting a temporary drilling rig and a long term offshore wind farm. Wind farms have to be close to shore for many reasons from transmittion cost to maintance accessability. Also they have been show to kill birds, so their migratory patterns have to be studied. Not trying to advocate that oil rigs are better for the enviroment, but to give you an idea one of the most efficient wind turbines generates about as much energy as a 5 b/d well. So you would have to build 1,000 wind turbines to match the energy output of this well that blew out. $$$ rules all, if wind farms were more efficient and cost effective you would be pissed at the wind companies not the oil companies.

Anyway there are now 3 operations to close in the well. Repair the bop, put a giant dome over the well, and drill a relief well. These options have a timeline from tomarrow to 90 days.

Bp is taking a very proactive stance here and at this point it looks like it will not be another exon valdez.

(please excuse the spelling and gramatical errors)
May 3 2010 8:58AM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i bet this bird is happy as shit that there are so less windfarms

Click for larger image



you know what i mean. youre right about the money thing, but i just feel sad that we as humans didnt invest more and earlier in alternate resources.
May 3 2010 9:36AM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 101
I am in the same boat. But we have to respect the legacy of oil, with out oil the progress we see today would have never happened. It really is staggering to think of all the ways oil impacts our lives. Everything from the tooth brush to your car tires are the direct cause of cheap oil energy. Before oil we were using whales to light our streets, lubricate our machines, and power or lifestyles.

We are approaching the point where oil will take a secondary role, but the truth is no alternative energy source even comes close to the efficiency and cost of oil.

This is a terrible disaster, one that is completely unprecedented. Disasters are going to happen with any energy technology and we have to accept that. What we don't have to accept is company negligence and diverting responsibility. I heard a interview with the BP CEO this morning and he is being very proactive, they are making every possible attempt to stop the flow and contain the oil. I would be extremely surprised if this ends up like the Exxon Valdez, tied up in court for 20 years.

Another thing to remember is that oil companies have almost nothing to do with the price of oil. Imagine selling a product for $150 and the next month sell that same product for $30. That is how volatile the oil market can be, the record profits posted a couple summers ago were due to this price increase, since then the price has dropped (although it is now recovering) and many companies went into hibernation mode. I know it is easy to call oil companies the bad guy, and its ok to hold them accountable, but remember how much you rely on them.
May 3 2010 10:35AM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
I've said it before and I'll say it again- the only viable alternative to oil for energy, and power production is natural gas. It's abundant and burns very efficiently and cleanly. It will become the dominant force in power production in the next 10 yrs. It's equivalent cost is about $20 - $30 a barrel. However, oil is the raw material used for pretty much everything, and without it, like tasche said, we'd still be back in the stone age.... Man would not of gone to the moon, air travel would be none existent and we'd all still be riding horses. The industrial revolution sparked a dependance on oil that cannot be reversed. Without doubt (even greenpeace has said this) the cleanest form of energy production is nuclear, but when shit goes wrong there, you have Chernobyl.... I'd take the horizon disaster over Chernobyl any day. Unfortunately, we're humans and mistakes are made, lessons are learnt and we move on- that has happened throughout history -titanic sinking, dams failing, nuclear explosions.... That's the type of species we are. Bp are instigating some great practices to try and sort this- it's a shitty situation, something fucked up, people died and oil has been spilt. Last year an air France jet plunged into the Atlantic killing everyone on board- a tiny stainless steel tube called a pitot fucked up... Look what happened. It's easy to blame companies and individuals but ultimately these things happen because of human nature, and who we are as a species.... It's crazy really to think about where we've come from to where we are today.
May 3 2010 10:52AM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
yeah, but its also crazy when you look how we used up resources which were created in hundreds of millions of years within some decades.

i know i use all the shit and have a nice life using oil-based products and driving cars, but it still bothers me cuz noone of us knows the consequences of our hunger for resources. resources that dont belong to us imo.



i somehow liked the story of FFVII if you know what i mean. a global system of "earth energy" which gets exploited for energy and the whole planet gets fucked up. i think its, on a metaphorical level, a great description of our current situation.
May 3 2010 11:00AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
You've gotten a lot of respect throughout this thread, but from the reports I've heard BP and safety have a habit of departing on the crossroads of profit.
May 3 2010 11:08AM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 101
BP is one of the most hardcore safety enforcers in the industry. People have turned down jobs with them because it takes forever for anything to get done because they are ultra safe.

That being said, the oil industry like any other time dependent competitive industry often take short cuts in the name of production. I consider BP to be very safe though.

Safety is priority number one, until shit needs to get done. That's just how it is, you can say all you want about that but until you actually work in industry your opinion is void. In my experience the over safe companies are the guys looking for jobs next month. So it is a fine line.
May 3 2010 11:19AM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
I understand what you are saying P-Face, and all I can inform you of from the inside is what I know is what bp are reporting publically. Now as for the safety record, yes it appears super questionable after Texas City and prudhoe bay.... But you need to appreciate this- bp are a super major, pushing the frontiers through investment.... Look at an operator like marathon, take minimal risk, nice and steady- without the super majors pushing the frontiers though, we'd be screwed. That said, I'll put this to you- if this happened in Nigeria, would you give a shit? Because trust me, it does alot more often with other operators. Bp's problem is they have a high presence in the gulf of Mexico and Alaska, on your doorstep providing you with you're own domestic oil. Would you admit that this thread wouldn't exist if the usa's oil was imported from west africa, and this blowout and spill occurred there? I think not - but that's just human nature, nothing against you of course, just an interesting point of discussion.
May 3 2010 11:44AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
From Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/6470162/BP-fined-record-87m-for-life-threatening-safety-failings.html

BP has been handed a record $87m fine for “outstanding life-threatening safety problems” at its Texas City refinery where an explosion killed 15 workers and injured 170 in 2005.

Hilda Solis, the US Labor Secretary, said authorities had found 439 current “wilful and egregious” safety violations which “if unaddressed could lead to another catastrophe”.
Note this is 4 years after the incident.

From WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471204575209331720726738.html

As BP PLC defended its handling of the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, documents show it argued against new, stricter safety rules proposed last year by the U.S. agency that oversees offshore drilling.

The British oil giant was one of several companies that wrote to the U.S. Minerals Management Service this past September saying additional regulation of the oil industry was unnecessary. In a letter, BP said the current voluntary system of safety procedures was adequate.

From Riskmetrics Blog:http://blog.riskmetrics.com/esg/2010/04/bp-spill-safety-record.html

To be sure, the extraction and refining of petroleum is an inherently dangerous process. But comparative research of the sector’s environmental, social and governance (ESG) performance shows that BP’s safety record lags its peers.



More from wiki:

BP was named by Mother Jones Magazine as one of the "ten worst corporations" in both 2001 and 2005 based on its environmental and human rights records.

n 1991 BP was cited as the most polluting company in the US based on EPA toxic release data. BP has been charged with burning polluted gases at its Ohio refinery (for which it was fined $1.7 million), and in July 2000 BP paid a $10 million fine to the EPA for its management of its US refineries

According to PIRG research, between January 1997 and March 1998, BP was responsible for 104 oil spills.

BP was one nominee for the 2009 Greenwash Awards, on companies trying to look green and failing.

May 3 2010 12:28PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
It's true that our proximity to the event makes it more important to us than elsewhere, and on an environmental stand point alone, this shouldn't be the case.

I think my main contention here is the support oil drilling has had in the recent past -- hence the 'drill baby drill' title, versus the lack of support and awareness of environmentally friendly options.
May 3 2010 12:40PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 101
I didn't know about that stuff. I am speaking specifically from a US E&P engineering standpoint. Apparently they suck though.

May 3 2010 12:45PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
Texas city was 100% bp's fault- they fucked up. This was transoceans accident, but bp have come out and said they are taking 100% responsibilty for this (effectively shooting every lawyer in the foot up front) and will pay for everything. I think that's pretty admirable for a company CEO to do this early- hands up, our fault, we'll pay... Boom. They will not stop until this is cleaned and everyone affected is compensated. If you look at valdez, it took exxon over a week to make it's first public statement. My own personal view is that safety is a culture, and it's a culture in America that is not as tight as Europe and the north sea. It's getting better, but it's just something I've noticed day to day getting things done, having worked in both locations. By the way- I'm not trying to defend anyone here, I'm just trying to present the facts. You know who is the most relieved right now? Transocean... They have fucked up monumentally, but due to the scale, and coverage.... It's all on bp. Had the explosion not resulted in sinking and this huge spill..... Most of you would have forgotten about this, but transocean would of been raped by the industry. They still face huge fines, and bp will take them to the cleaners....plus if people end up doing jail time, it'll be transocean. When they sign these deals, they are paid a huge sum of money to drill these wells, and to take full responsibility for doing it safely... The oil now leaking though, belongs to bp, thus their bill for clean up. That's how that works. The coffer dams are looking pretty sweet, and they should be deployed this week, and the relief well was spudded yesterday. Dispersant injection at the leak is also working really really well. Better than anticipated.
May 3 2010 12:52PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
Well that's politics isn't it. Drill baby drill is some political commentator nonesense... That is all below the level of intellect in this thread. What you need to ask yourself is this, is any government, or can any government really stop a dependance on oil? Or are their priorities more immediate-supporting economies, jobs, self supporting energy supply? The people doing the most to come up with alternatives are the bp's and exxon's of this world. Comes down to a saying I use regularly at work "if it was easy- everyone would be doing it". Any change in oil consumption culture is going to take a very very long time... 100's of years. The seeds have been sewn but it will be a long process, and I wouldn't expect it to dissapear in your lifetime.
May 3 2010 1:00PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
this may be slightly more a shift in priority over dependence, but our government could stop subsidizing our oil costs and make consumers realize the true cost of their 'dependence' perhaps they do have that power.

If we took $36.5B out of oil and put it towards viable alternatives, could we not see an exponential growth in the fields in which everyone says are currently TOO costly? I would suspect that if our gas costs were closer to our European counterparts, there would be a substantial shift in our dependent mind set.
May 3 2010 1:34PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
But do governments also not make shit loads out of oil too from huge tax revenues? Again though it's two fold- oil for energy, and oil for industry and industrial process. Energy - only real viable mass energy production alternatives that are relatively speaking, clean are natural gas and nuclear. Even hydro electric- that has a huge environmental impact.... Damming a river can be catastrophic for land use down stream (Hoover dam). The simple answer is, there is no simple answer. And I think the reality will be what you see in those exxon ads, the future will be a mix of everything.
May 3 2010 1:51PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,948
Typical corporate protocol - deny deny deny

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36912754/ns/us_news-environment/?GT1=43001

I don't know much about what's going on, but I know that it 1) sucks, 2) is outrageous, and 3) has made me hate BP. This shit is rediculous, how the fuck can you screw up so badly that we're not only ruining the environment but we're wasting all this stupid fucking oil. Goddamn it.
May 3 2010 3:32PM
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miroz
Posts: 10333 - Karma: 3,948
...and to follow up my last post, which I'll admit was largely ignorant, I'd like to thanks H8CH for his information. Shit's fucked but I'm glad to see someone doing something about it. Reading this thread was a good eye-opener, and its nice to have some insight into whats going on.

Keep us posted yo.
May 3 2010 4:13PM
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Rez4frederick
Posts: 4740 - Karma: 40
Im all for drilling for oil, but do it on land, like an intelligent human being would do. The technology just isn't there to do it at the bottom of the ocean, im sorry, its just not. The oil is def not going anywhere so why risk losing so much when we know there is still alot underneath dry land?

I hope BP smartens up after this shit.
May 3 2010 6:28PM
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Rime.
Posts: 632 - Karma: 615
This sure is fun to watch...hooray America, we've done it again...

May 3 2010 8:02PM
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wazzucrewskier
Posts: 2269 - Karma: 151
lol yeah... when the going gets tough lets just quit.  I don't know man, if every industry did that there would be no progress anywhere.  i mean shit think of henry ford when he started making cars, hell yeah there were wrecks and people died, but that is how you make progress unfortunately, you learn from your mistake and you make sure as hell that that will not happen again.  this goes with everything in life you have to take risks to make gains man. 

i guess i just dont understand the mindset of all the people that are so up in arms and pissed about this thing.  i mean these people did not go to work thinking any of this would happen.  it is unfair to expect 100% accuracy from anyone doing any job.  there are a ton of times during my days at work where i make a stupid mistake and screw up on a daily task, hell everyone does it.  if we didnt we would be robots.  i just think it is incredibly unfair to blame it all on the people on the rig, because sometimes shit just happens.  i dont know, i mean obviously the mistakes made by people in jobs such as this have a much larger impact than most other poeples mistakes at their job, but i just dont think it is fair to say all people that drill for oil and all this stuff are morons and everything, these people are obviously very smart and well trained but things dont always go your way.

again, thank you very much H8HC for all the info i, along with many people on here really appreciate all your work to keep us updated as this is a very interesting and in depth story. 
May 4 2010 3:55AM
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prophet
Posts: 4737 - Karma: 1,096
so i heard something through the grapevine about a specific mud solution that's used in the process... i forget if it was as a lube or in the cementing, but basically that it's really expensive stuff and it's recoverable and that someone in charge got a little greedy with the recovery... more shouldve been left longer or something like that. that sound plausible? mostly aimed at h8ch...
May 4 2010 2:39PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
I think there may be something involved that has a consequence born out of the cementing operation. Not totally sure on the the recoverable stuff you're talking about, but every second on a drill rig costs money, so maybe a curing time issue (although i doubt it, this shit is not a cowboy operation... despite what you may think). But anyway, a pressure build up occurred that was not necessarily detected until obviously it was too late. But don't confuse mud and cement - they are different and have different applications. Interestingly, i was at the OTC exhibition today in houston, and obviously bp were not there and had withdrawn from the technical presentations, and also transocean. Tuesday is usually the cameron party, but that was cancelled (it was a cameron BOP on maconda) BUT it was sad to walk past the MI Swaco stand (other then transocean, they had 2 guys killed in the 11) - makes you realise the human tragedy here, which we shouldn't forget.... obviously it was on everyones mind.
May 4 2010 6:34PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
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May 6 2010 11:31AM
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Static
Posts: 8581 - Karma: 4,053
looks good to me!
May 6 2010 11:41AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
bring it to new page
May 6 2010 11:53AM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 101
I don't really understand how this is going to work.

Are they going to put an ESP or something in the tubing string? Otherwise they will have to rely on natural separation at the sea floor to fill the column with oil but I just don't see how they are going to pump that off. The pipe will fill with oil eventually then start spewing out the bottom with no type of pressure containment. And as I understood before there were several spots in the riser where it could leak from so any attempt to put that section of riser under pressure would result in fluid going out the other holes. It says they are going to circulate warm water to prevent hydrates, and the can pump down just fine but with no pressure control on the sea floor I just don't see how they are going to circulate anything.
May 6 2010 12:03PM
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49566738265
Posts: 0 - Karma: 7,705
This is ignorant and foolish from the top down, do you have ANY background that supports your assertions other than you read about something you don't understand on Yahoo?
May 6 2010 12:31PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218
I've been helping with the design of these for the last couple of days, and they're being installed tonight. It's total belt and braces engineering. They'll be using a 12" riser and they'll be injecting Chemicals for hydrate remediation etc. It's going to need some top side help to get right, using a positive draw, such as siphoning or pumping. ITasch is right in that they need to optimize the flow In order to ensure a constant upward flow, yet also maintaining the internal pressure in the box.... The flow assurance guys have done calcs and fingers crossed we can make it work. It's pretty amazing the engineering and ingenuity that has gone into this solution... And to have fab'd these 100 tonne structures in this time frame. The whole industry has pulled together... I obviously asked if I could get a NS sticker on one, but it was a no go ;-)
May 6 2010 12:33PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
can't remember if it was originaly Jon or Stephen but can we get a yellow coat of paint on that baby?

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May 6 2010 12:45PM
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