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NS PLEASE HELP! need stories and pictures of broken ski brakes

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bobs
Posts: 4801 - Karma: 868
For our Major Qualifying Project, me and a group of two other mechanical engineers are working on a project to design and build a new ski brake. We've noted that the main problems are durability and that ski brakes are only designed to handle forces in the forward direction.

In addition to durability, we feel that one of the main problems is that there is no spring to absorb forces that are created during switch falls. This combined with the angle of the brake creates an anchor that results in forces and moments that are above the critical limits of the binding. Often the brake assembly will snap off or brake arms will bend. Our goal is to take a look at the standards for falls in the forward direction and apply them to switch falls as well.

In order to develop a starting point we need you help!

1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?

3) Stories of broken ski brakes

4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard

5) Any pictures of broken ski brakes

Any input, stories, ideas or advice is GREATLY appreciated

Thanks NS!

Mar 10 2010 1:50PM
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Gharf
Posts: 1390 - Karma: 983
landing switch....
Mar 10 2010 2:03PM
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debrickshaw
Posts: 1957 - Karma: 68
pm Aton.Jones he just broke his brakes

My salomon brakes just fell off one day...
Mar 10 2010 2:15PM
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EmperorKuzco
Posts: 6660 - Karma: 254
Im averaging a broken binding about... 3 times a month sooo
Mar 10 2010 2:16PM
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R.Fahey
Posts: 8602 - Karma: 539
I think you could make a two way hinge brake similar to the brake levers on a dirtbike.  They go both ways so if you dump it they don't snap off. 
The weight of a ski alone isn't much so the two way hinge thing could be made to only move if there is more than, say, 15 pounds on it... light the weight of a skier when they land switch and their ski starts to fall off and just their toe is in the binding pushing down on it.  Then it could brake and then snap back when the skier was off of it.

I forget your original questions now so sorry i didn't answer them. 

Mar 10 2010 2:17PM
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SKIU4EA
Posts: 2387 - Karma: 2,072
Can't even tell you how often I put my breaks in a vice and bend them back into position with vice grips. It got so bad that I cary a spare break with me.

So far my Look px12's have held up the best
Mar 10 2010 2:55PM
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SKIU4EA
Posts: 2387 - Karma: 2,072
*brake
Mar 10 2010 2:56PM
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ChadThundercock
Posts: 3071 - Karma: 830
i have broken the breaks on every pair of marker bindings i have ever had.
Mar 10 2010 3:24PM
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Hakkalugi
Posts: 145 - Karma: 10
My marker breaks have been bent every way possible. 1 of them makes the plastic thing crooked and i have the bend it back so my ski doesnt run away...Ill try and get a pic later.
Mar 10 2010 3:38PM
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Sir.Steezealot
Posts: 1156 - Karma: 677
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?
Yes just this season I have gone through 6 pairs of brakes

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
I have never heard of anyone actually breaking there brake just normally skiing

3) Stories of broken ski brakes
 When I was heading to my mountain my ski had no brake somone at the office told me they had that sorta brake so I get to the shop and they tell me they dont have my type of break so it ended up with me spending 4 hours of no skiing at my mountain doing nothing till I could get a ride home pain in my ass.

4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
Well one time when a brake broke it started going down the hill next thing I know I see it pop up off a little mogul and hit some snowboarder kid right in the face. Got alot of shit from the dad but he understood that I had no control of my ski brake breaking I apoligized and we all got on are way
5) Any pictures of broken ski brakes
I could get some if I wasnt so lazy
Mar 10 2010 4:09PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,085
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?
Of course this is an important issue. Any time you loose a ski while skiing or landing switch, the brakes are a concern. If you never ski switch, they're fine. However, I happen to enjoy riding around backwards, and a lot of other people do too.

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
We land and ski backwards. Duh.

3) Stories of broken ski brakes
  Too many to count. On a few of my bindings, the brake arms (Salomon) can come undone from the brackets that hold them in. This is the result of these wrecks.

4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
Many. I had a Caylor fly about 500 ft down a cliffy run at Big Mtn earlier this year.

Designing these wouldn't be that hard. Here's what I'd do.

The fulcrum of the ski brake is the main stress point in a switch landing. It's also the place all the forces of the brake act on the brake frame. If the frame isn't strong enough, the bracket at the fulcrum breaks, and the brake arms fly loose to be only connected with the pedal. If the brackets don't go, it can wrench the whole brake loose, break it, or even damage the binding plate/plastic construction.

The problem is that the brackets at the fulcrum cannot move. When a ski catches going fakie, the forces that the brake arms produce push the fulcrum brackets toward the nose of the ski. What I would create would be a lateral plastic/rubber slot mounted in a thin metal frame for the bracket that goes around the brake arm. It would extend out towards the nose of the ski from the current fulcrum point. At the current fulcrum point, there would be small notches in the slot holding the brake in that place. But if the brake arms catch, they could push past the notches and slide along the track towards the nose. This wouldn't interfere with the any pedal is currently set up. At the end of the slots, there should be some sort of rubber damping system to take the shock of the direction change, and prevent bending the brake arms/damaging the brake as a whole. If the ski changes direction after the initial catch, the arms are pulled back towards the notches, and they work that way too.

I just want someone to make these. If you use my idea, send me a few pairs.

Please remember that any brake arms you use should be bendable. Shelling out for wide brakes to make up for a 5mm difference is stupid. Salomon arms are, in my experience, the easiest to bend.
Mar 10 2010 4:28PM
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Zump.
Posts: 3338 - Karma: 305
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?
I've ripped off a break completely once, but very commonly do i bend my breaks so they drag in the snow.
Yes, this is an important issue. Refer to question 4
2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
They are pushing their skis to their limits, and are very frequently clicking them together while performing grabs. Hitting rails or getting hung up on stumps and branches in the nappy east coast backcountry contribute to bending breaks
3) Stories of broken ski brakes
While riding switch in pow, i hung up on some sort of root and popped out of my ski. Ripped one of the legs of my binding clear off.
4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
my friend's ski came off and went flying down the hill. then, it went off a jump and came inches to a impaling a kid through the neck that was innocently hiking up next to the jump
5) Any pictures of broken ski brakes
N/A
Mar 10 2010 4:33PM
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1337
Posts: 31059 - Karma: 29,314
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?
Yes, very
2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
landing switch, its been stated, see above ^^
3) Stories of broken ski brakes
I have yet to fall landing switch :):):)
4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
I have seen peoples skis fly down into gullies, go down the entire park, and almost hit people because of breaks. Yes this is a problem.
5) Any pictures of broken ski brakes
I'm sure they are out there
Mar 10 2010 4:38PM
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punkrock32
Posts: 1183 - Karma: 21
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?  Super common, and a very important issue to address.  If there were 'unbreakable' brakes as mentioned in another thread, I would be very inclined to buy a binding that has them.

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
As you mentioned above, its in switch landings mainly.  I haven't really seen or had any brakes break when landing forwards, its primarily in switch landings.  Basically I see this as the main cause of breaking brakes/brake pads.
3) Stories of broken ski brakes
There has for sure been a few times.  A few times I've had them loosen without noticing, or get too close to the snow so that when you land switch it gets torn off immediately.  I've only had brakes come off in the park.
4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
I've had a few times where after breaking a brake I've had to chase skis.  While I haven't run into any major safety issues, I've had to hunt through the woods a few times to find a lost ski.  Its a pretty big pain in the ass.
Mar 10 2010 4:40PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,085
Here's some rough sketches to illustrate my point.

Lateral views, all.

Current brake set up:
Click for larger image

My idea:
Click for larger image

And with the brakes moved forward from the usual/initial fulcrum point:
Click for larger image

A detail of the bracket/slot, from the side:
Click for larger image

With the new bracket/slot, it has to have a metal frame. None of this plasticy garbage shit. Ideally, the whole brake base/frame should be one CNCed aluminum piece. You could make different attachments for different bindings, and put two small screws into the ski to hold the fronts of the bracket/slots more securely.

I also did a little more thinking about whether the arms should move independently, and realized that hey should have some sort of connecting bar between them to keep it stronger and more uniform. it would run straight across between the two parts of the brakes that go through the fulcrum brackets, and it would keep them both in the same place in the bracket/slot. Though there might be forces on one arm that aren't on the other, if the bumps in the bracket/slot were fairly easy to pass over (which they should be anyway) the connecting bar wouldn't cause much more strain on the whole.

 I think this connecting bar  would work with bending the brakes as well, because the part that I've always bent is way out on the arm, and nowhere near the part that rotates in the fulcrum bracket.

A vertical view of the connecting bar:

Click for larger image
Mar 10 2010 5:12PM
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49566738265
Posts: 0 - Karma: 7,704
Ya, but if you watch slow mo videos of switch ejections, the ski isn't usually flat on the ground or completely connected to the skier at the point that the brake needs to flip around.  I think a brake that could continue to rotate another 90 degrees would be a very easy design that would be effective.
Mar 10 2010 6:04PM
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rj.
Posts: 3323 - Karma: 28
this thread is spam
Mar 10 2010 6:07PM
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49566738265
Posts: 0 - Karma: 7,704
Hopefully the Internet isn't full by this evening.
Mar 10 2010 6:11PM
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fratskier69
Posts: 1868 - Karma: 1,271
hopefully ski companies are taking some good ideas from this thread,
i think an innovative company like line should work on building a park specific binding
Mar 10 2010 6:13PM
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twin-tip-hero
Posts: 2896 - Karma: 277
i had 4 broken brakes in 3 weeks. i can post some pictures up later, and give you the story if you want.
Mar 10 2010 6:14PM
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jamodeo
Posts: 3040 - Karma: 663
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?
probably every one has had some trouble not a big issue

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
rails switch landing more abusive to ski equipment in general

3) Stories of broken ski brakes
switch lip on down flat down last sunday clipped my tips break went into one of the supports of the rail got bucked break broke

4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
ski falls off in air break doesn't deploy and ghost rides into trees

5) Any pictures of broken ski brakes
nope
Mar 10 2010 6:16PM
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i.ski.NC
Posts: 572 - Karma: 18
This has never happened to me cause im not that good but i could see how it would be a problem for more advanced skiiers. It happens more to freeskiers because they ride switch.
Mar 10 2010 6:18PM
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titsLOL
Posts: 7485 - Karma: 396
One problem with fks is if your heels din/forward pressure are wrong you can lean forward landing switch enough to let the brakes dig into the snow, which obviously fucks them since you are still skiing fast with your weight on them unlike when you fall. Not sure if that is relevant at all, but it's fucked me a few times this year.
Mar 10 2010 6:19PM
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49566738265
Posts: 0 - Karma: 7,704
Considering Line's history with bindings, I have no idea why they were the first on your list.  Try Rossi/Look, Salomon, or Tyrolia.
Mar 10 2010 6:19PM
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Doug.
Posts: 2236 - Karma: 457
same thing just happened to me..
Mar 10 2010 6:41PM
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Dirac
Posts: 1304 - Karma: 335
In my experience, the brakes only fail when you land switch a little forwards. If you straight up eject and your ski goes flying backwards, the mass of the ski is not usually enough to snap the brake. The problem is when you land switch a little forward, but do not immediately eject. You essentially half come out of your heel piece when this happens which lets the brake come out enough that it grabs. With all your mass on the brake, now driving it into the snow, the brake will snap.

I have noticed that the position of the brake in relation to the boot makes a huge difference. Also with a much smaller BSL in my new boots, I find it happens way less (less length=less distance heel lifts pivoting at toe)

My idea would be to design a brake that "waits" longer before it starts to come down. Also another really important thing would have to be a safety mechanism so the bindings can not be damaged if the brake does catch. Make a cheap ass, weak link part that can be swapped out without having to put a whole new brake on the ski. Something strong enough to hold the ski is it does eject, but weak enough to snap before anything else if you are still on top of the ski and pushing the brake into the snow.
Mar 10 2010 6:57PM
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rj.
Posts: 3323 - Karma: 28
lol. when i opened this thread earlier it made the screen tiny (hense why i called it spam)
Mar 10 2010 7:25PM
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canterbury
Posts: 2382 - Karma: 55
i just broke a brake on my look px12 jibs yesterday, luckily it was a cheap replacement ($20).  and like everybody's already said, brakes most commonly break when you're landing switch and ejecting (like i did).
Mar 10 2010 7:29PM
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quiif
Posts: 22 - Karma: 10

1) This happens all the time, i see it or hear about it most days

2) Riding switch, and just the general abuse from hitting rails, jumps and cliff drops

3) I've had 3 ski brakes break.

4) Once when my ski brake snapped (I didn't notice) my ski ran off for me and went right into a tree well. nearly hit someone too.

Mar 10 2010 7:47PM
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pDails
Posts: 1238 - Karma: 75
Happens frequently. Several brakes for me

Dangerous because runaway skis almost hurt people. also, on a binding like the fks heel, you can replace the brake without unmounting the heel and disassembling the heel piece. therefore replacement is unreasonable. Ive been skiing without a brake on my one of my skis all season. dangerous...
Mar 10 2010 8:32PM
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pDails
Posts: 1238 - Karma: 75
Freeskiers are more prone because they stress their bindings more. trying tricks means your guarenteed to fall on a fairly regular basis. falling risks breaking your bindings more than anything. Skiing switch is pretty much the only way to break a brake.

the more elastic the heel piece the more likely to break a brake switch. It just the nature of a quality binding. the binding allows your heel to lift without coming out meaning your brake comes down a little. Of course the maximum heel lift occurs with maximum impact which is when you sink into the snow most. which means maximum chance of hooking your brake when landing switch.

I think the only solution might be a brake that retracts straight up and returns straight down and is able to flex forward and back slightly. or a brake that retracts both forward and back with a spring loaded mechanism that allows the brake to switch retraction directions when a maximum moment about the mechanism occurs. Therefore, the brake is designed to "break" intentionally and then retract the other direction.
Mar 10 2010 9:29PM
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bobs
Posts: 4801 - Karma: 868
Thanks for all the responses! especially those who took time to explain ideas.

Mar 10 2010 11:15PM
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babujib
Posts: 5039 - Karma: 104
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?

the three different bindings ive had (all look) blew up within probably 20 or so days on snow.

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?

harder landings, landing switch

3) Stories of broken ski brakes

like i said, ive broken 3 out of 3

4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard

launched a ski 40 feet in the air off of loons wall ride after falling off the last booter. coulda easily killed someone if it landed on top of them
Mar 10 2010 11:18PM
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-justice-
Posts: 1808 - Karma: 37
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?
      bent brakes happen very often and this season two brakes on different bindings have pulled out of the heelpiece.  It's important for safety of the skier and everyone around him/her, as well as brake durability.  (bent brakes lead to higher likelihood of brakepiece coming out).

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
     we land switch.  we run a higher chance of falling backward or to the side pressing the brake into unnatural positions

3) Stories of broken ski brakes
     both of my incidents happened while buttering.  i supposed that during a butter an edge caught, the ski tipped downhill and the brake arm came into contact with the snow and that somehow flipped the brake off the binding (provided that the binding did, and it did both times, release).

4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
     had a runaway ski that was headed to a busy trail merge but thankfully hit something and flipped onto its top so the binding was drug through the snow.
Mar 10 2010 11:26PM
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AEROPLAEHN
Posts: 1353 - Karma: 192
Both my pairs of skis have broken brakes, its's a pain in the ass having to tie my ski to my leg.
I'd love a binding that will endure switch landings moar.
Mar 10 2010 11:30PM
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m_nova
Posts: 191 - Karma: 581
big problem
Mar 10 2010 11:30PM
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sklermang
Posts: 2981 - Karma: 1,954
my brake breaking last season:

in the past two seasons ive had my breaks break three times and my friend's break twice. all on switch landings
Mar 10 2010 11:38PM
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Pinguu
Posts: 1581 - Karma: 49
I broke my Salomon brake yesterday...
Mar 10 2010 11:51PM
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Whifazoo
Posts: 737 - Karma: 132
i landed like 500 this season on a large, bot of my brakes broke clean off , one of my skis hit me in the leg (it hurt) my other ski continued on a death rampage down the hill, rolling the knuckle of the next jump and proceeding to hit the third jump in the line at mach chicken nearly hitting  the charlift, im so glad no one was hurt. to be honest brake malfunctions are life threatining to other people on the hill
Mar 11 2010 1:11AM
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Jwenz
Posts: 8893 - Karma: 7,634
i dont remember any of the questions. but i fucking landed switch and blew the fuck up and by by went my break. probably cause i was too big for my px12 jibs (185 lbs). but i landed and the break just snapped right off my ski, wasn't too stoked. sorry for not the best answer just kinda lazy. if you have some questions shoot me a pm
Mar 11 2010 1:30AM
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ski-swagga
Posts: 5276 - Karma: 219
1) How common of a problem is this for freeskiers? Is this an important issue to address?
this is a very common problem, on almost all of my bindings i have one currently broken or recently fixed brake.

2) Why do you think freeskiers are more prone to breaking ski brakes?
because we land switch and ski switch. bindings/brakes are not made for that.

3) Stories of broken ski brakes
One of the first times i broke a binding was when doing a 5 off of a smaller jump, i under rotated a little bit and the part holding the brake in actually shattered.

while bending a fks brake i went a little too fast and snapped 1 arm completely off of the break and after half a season the other arm snapped due to stress probably.

4) Stories of run away skis that created a safety hazard
one of my run away skis have actually hit a 10 year old kid and caused him to fall over (it was kinda funny) but could've been dangerous. apparantly people can be killed from runaway skis.

5) Any pictures of broken ski brakes
nope.
Mar 11 2010 1:53AM
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bobs
Posts: 4801 - Karma: 868
bump
Mar 11 2010 1:24PM
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JZA
Posts: 617 - Karma: 42
this. i think its just that most marker bindings are 1 bolt...
Mar 11 2010 1:38PM
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bobs
Posts: 4801 - Karma: 868
bumo
Mar 15 2010 4:25PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,849
ive broken my beaks on a rail then later when the ski came off i had to chase it down the mountain on one ski before it went off a cliff
Mar 15 2010 4:40PM
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-ShredTheGnar-
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 111
i know this is no help to op but...

Why do half the kids who respond to this spell brakes like breaks?

it's not that hard to get the correct spelling?

bindings have BRAKES not breaks.
Mar 15 2010 4:51PM
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cultrara
Posts: 5147 - Karma: 46,849
haha wow i didnt even notice.  good call
Mar 15 2010 5:19PM
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