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Death and skiing

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codizzle
Posts: 895 - Karma: 2,250
after learning of CR's death last week, I began questioning whether the risks of skiing at the highest level are worth the rewards.

anybody else have similar thoughts? if so, care to share them?

i gotta admit, i'm pretty torn.

I take into consideration other ski and snowboard pros who've either lost their lives or seriously hurt themselves this decade: Shane McConkey, Kevin Pearce, Billy Poole, Marc-Andre Belliveau, Doug Coombs, Craig Kelly, Tristan Picot.

is this just a fluke?

is there any other professional sport out there that can claim this many lives in the span of seven years (mountaineering, hunting, moto/auto racing???)

... just wondering where people are at.

with sincerity,

cody raisig
Mar 2 2010 11:13AM
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Bar_Down
Posts: 5896 - Karma: 395
i wouldn't say that im at risk of dying when i ski cus i'm not that good and shit, but when i think about it, everyone dies at some point in their life, so i wouldn't hold back on doing the thing that i love the most in life just because there's a possibility of dying. i would just go big. then again, you should always take into consideration all the risks and see if you can tone them down a lil bit, but you can only do so much.
Mar 2 2010 11:18AM
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B-Phelps
Posts: 125 - Karma: 14

"The joy I get from skiing, it's worth dying for" - CR Johnson

I think a large part of what made CR and Shane love skiing was pushing themselves and pushing the sport.  It would have killed them to not ski the way they did.

RIP guys

Mar 2 2010 11:25AM
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codizzle
Posts: 895 - Karma: 2,250
that's a pretty legit answer.
Mar 2 2010 11:56AM
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yojimbo
Posts: 3631 - Karma: 27
I dunno man, the whole thing with CR happened and a couple days later i was skiing some tree's and thinking how easy it would be to just slip up once, smash a tree and be gone. It didn't stop me from bombing through that glad hopping on pillows and having fun. it just feels to good to be outweighed by the risk involved.

also, if you think about it, when your skiing your in control of a lot more risk than you are when say you climb into your car and hop the interstate to work or school or wherever ya know? driving is incredibly dangerous and people don't even think twice about it. the benefits of skiing are greater than that of driving to me personally and i think more about dying when i get into a car then when i pop into my bindings and send a cliff or enter a gate to get some fresh or rip through a super tight glade.
Mar 2 2010 12:02PM
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yojimbo
Posts: 3631 - Karma: 27
i forgot to mention on the driving part, on the interstate or even some roads your usually going 55+ and you have ZERO control over what other people are gonna do and they're zipping by sometimes as close as 4 feet away from you in the opposite direction, so fucking scary. Or when yoru in a car with someone else driving who isn't a good driver (most women i've driven with) you see so many near death moments and shit. driving scares the shit out of me.
Mar 2 2010 12:05PM
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sk1pp3r
Posts: 11 - Karma: 10
My sig says it all. Well, and CR's quote, RIP
Mar 2 2010 12:09PM
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dr.awkward
Posts: 1461 - Karma: 26
I think that guys like CR and Shane could not live their lives any other way. Skiing meant a lot to them, even more than it means to 90% of the people on NS. And when you're living life to the fullest, in a way that gives you total satisfaction, what's death but just something that...happens?

In reference to other sports, I know that death is pretty frequent in surfing. At least 5 people have died at Pipeline within the last 6 years. In ski terms, that'd roughly be like 5 people dying in the whistler terrain park in the past 6 years, which I'm pretty sure hasn't happened. In snowboarding, Kevin Pearce and Danny Davis had possibly career ending injuries.

My point being, many extreme sports go beyond just "play" or even "sport" in the sense that participants can actually die or seriously fuck yourself up for the rest of your life. And once you get to that skill level, I think it becomes a personality test: it is worth it for some people, not for others. Both respectable decisions. 
Mar 2 2010 12:42PM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
Mountaineering and climbing easily take as many lives.

I think that It's a sad thing, but as said above, pushing themselves is what these people love to do. Besides, they are skiing at a level where what they are doing may be scary, but is totally within their skill set. That's why it's an accident. It's the same as someone not so experienced messing up and hitting a tree.
Mar 2 2010 12:46PM
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H8CH
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 218

The way skiing is going - it's exponential growth in pushing the limits etc .... I would say these incidents are likely to increase unfortunately... 

Think about it.... i mean, how crazy is some sh*t getting....  especially in the park.... 

I ask you this - when will the first fatal accident happen to a top skiier in a park? Shit keeps getting built bigger, faster, gnarlier...  

Doing 50mph into something huge - it won't take much.....   and i personally am worried that it will be pushed up until that point where a fatal accident happens.  Simon Dumont and Derek Spong have both been super lucky in accidents involving massive kickers....

Mar 2 2010 1:38PM
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ericman
Posts: 405 - Karma: 155

everyone expects only park skiers to be the skiers who can die but i live in ontario and about 5 people die at the ski resorts around me every year and they are all people who rent and go down the hill too fast and hit a tree

But it is interesting that no of the skiers who have died lately have been park skier.

RIP skiers

Mar 2 2010 3:47PM
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nickyp
Posts: 5673 - Karma: 215
What's better;

Dying skiing, stoked, with your friends around you, doing the thing you love most in the world.

Or dying inside everyday you walk into your shit job, that you hate, with nothing to look forward to when you leave, except the interim period between leaving, and going back to your shit job the next day.

?

Mar 2 2010 3:53PM
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Peach.
Posts: 3879 - Karma: 933
"I'm not going to creeo through life just to arrive safely at death"-Seth Morrison.
Mar 2 2010 3:55PM
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sander_h
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 5,803

I'm sure a little bit of thought goes into what they are doing. Shane was an avid ski wingsuiter and i'm pretty sure Cr grew up skiing that line. What CR said though about dying for skiing is what i totally belive. I would much rather die skiing than anything else

Mar 2 2010 4:02PM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,010
your thought process is flawed. progressing your skiing is all about calculated risks and slowly building up your skill level and confidence. so you saying "is skiing at the highest level worth it?"


well, that the same as asking, "is skiing worth it?". are you going to quit skiing because you're afraid that one day you'll fall on a double cork and die? if so you might want to quit because you may fall catching an edge on a groomer and hitting a tree.

no one goes into something thinking "this may be the one I die on, but here we go!".


People of all skill levels die while skiing, pro deaths are just high profile and therefore, more tragic. It doesn't necessarily mean they have a higher chance of dying. I don't really know the stats, or think they actually exist. It's just my thought.
Mar 2 2010 5:22PM
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Shabangarang
Posts: 949 - Karma: 156
idk if this sounds right but if i was to die i would want to die doing something that i love to do and be happy when i was doing it
Mar 2 2010 5:26PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,724
We have to remember that these guys risk their life everytime they drop, they are aware a wrong move may be their last. They need this level of focus and intesity to feed their passion. Unlike other extreme sports such as mountaineering, there is a safety net in case something goes wrong. We dont have such a luxury
Mar 2 2010 7:43PM
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.brian
Posts: 1710 - Karma: 233
I don't know if you can consider shane's death a skiing death, it was more of a BASE jumping death, which easily claims more lives than skiing.
Mar 2 2010 7:52PM
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jason...
Posts: 9006 - Karma: 780
Wait, Kevan Pierce is dead now?
Mar 2 2010 7:55PM
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JahJahBinks
Posts: 3567 - Karma: 461
Theres more chance of dying on the way to the resort than actually skiing at the resort.
Mar 2 2010 7:59PM
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quixotic
Posts: 6937 - Karma: 2,978
he said people who died or seriously hurt themselves
Mar 2 2010 8:02PM
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.jesus.
Posts: 2288 - Karma: 22
i think about this every time i strap on my boots after a friend of mine died two months ago. but to quote the late great CR Johnson "The joy i get from skiing that's worth dying for," and another from most of my family "Skiing is not a matter of life or death it's far more important than that,"

RIP William Clyde Johnson and CR Johnson

Much love to all of you
Mar 2 2010 8:19PM
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BMS-Productions
Posts: 885 - Karma: 17
true that! sounds stupid, but everybody has to die one day. that has nothing to do with skiing. you can die everywhere
Mar 2 2010 8:46PM
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GreenStezz
Posts: 3570 - Karma: 717
"It's worth risking death".....................
Mar 2 2010 8:51PM
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Download-My-Apps
Posts: 5069 - Karma: 1,017
Ya I've wondered the same. But I think CR and McConkey were two people that were well aware of the risks, particularly CR after being in a coma. But both these amazing men I'm sure wouldn't change the way they lived their lives. And props for living to fullest.

Mar 2 2010 9:12PM
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dr.awkward
Posts: 1461 - Karma: 26
it's up to you...........
Mar 2 2010 11:12PM
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walcott
Posts: 319 - Karma: 39
Everyone says all these quotes about dying doing what you love, but in reality its not really worth it.
Would you still ski if you knew it was going to take your life in the next year?
I sure wouldn't. Skiing is fun and I love it, but I would rather die peacefully after leading a full life than tragically at such a young age. When the extremes are at the level that they are today, even a calculated risk is almost too dangerous.
Mar 2 2010 11:13PM
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ike.
Posts: 2292 - Karma: 93
this is the answer you are looking for
Mar 2 2010 11:24PM
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Triple_Strum
Posts: 6384 - Karma: 953

ding ding ding,  we finally have a winner.

This guy has it right.  All the people that say skiing is worth dying for never thought they would do so in the near future, it was more a statement to show that they really loved skiing.  As for it being worth it?  Not a chance.  Skiing is a SPORT - something you should do for fun or as a hobby.  Whenever a sport becomes more important than the truly important things in life it is time to re-assess the situation.  Yes, Shane McConkey died doing what he loved and he did live for the sport.  But, if a week before his death he could have had the choice of a) dying while doing what he loved - skiing off of cliff and parachuting down or b) never skiing again and seeing his wife have a husband and his child have a father then I would have a hard time believing any person who would voluntarily choose the former. 

Some of you reading this are even offended I would say that I can say what the right decision is for anyone else.  But I am telling you that if you think it is worth it to die for just because it is doing what you love then you should probably re-evaluate why you exist.  If you have others that depend on you and you still think it is fine to go die because you love it, then you probably need to grow up.  Not trying to be rude, but I am going to stand for real principles, and real men and women have an obligation to others aside from themselves FIRST, before their own desires.  A great quote from JD Salinger written in Cather in the Rye...

"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."

Mar 2 2010 11:25PM
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panojibber
Posts: 3382 - Karma: 216
I've been hurting myself a few times over the past little while and its made me start to reconsider. I dislocated my right shoulder a month ago, did something to some bone in my shoulder a week ago, and tonight I think I might have torn my rotator cuff. Its made me seriously reconsider my skiing right now, I can't keep getting hurt like this and its getting really frustrating. But either way I know I'm not going to stop skiing, and I'm not going to stop pushing myself - its a part of me, and I can't get rid of it now. Skiing really is like an addiction - there are times you love it, times you hate it, but you WILL keep coming back.

As for deaths, I haven't seen as many people in other sports getting hurt, skiing seems to have a particularly high toll. Its a crazy sport though, it really is unlimited and you can easily put yourself in a situation where there is a good chance you'll die.
Mar 2 2010 11:32PM
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onearmwanderer
Posts: 1153 - Karma: 31
i totally get what your saying and of course any sane individual imo would choose the first option but of course your not going to know if your going to die the next time you go up, its just a stupid argument to bring up. no shit he wouldn't have hit that cliff if he knew he was going to die. those quotes such as cr's aren't saying: i dont care if im going to die im going to do it anyway. thats what it sounds like you're suggesting.

i think drail had it right with his post.
Mar 2 2010 11:35PM
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shredables
Posts: 647 - Karma: 19
There is nothing wrong with shredding within your limits. Whether this requires stepping the limit up from time to time is to be seen. Personally, I think I have alot more going for me than just skiing. However, skiing is the one thing in life that i truly have a passion for.

so here lies the question, is it worth dying for?

I would have to say it depends on my level of personal achievement before dying, then it might be acceptable.
Mar 2 2010 11:37PM
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Chicago_Steeze
Posts: 27 - Karma: 10
I am happier pushing myself and accepting the risks involved than sitting at home where its safe, or on the groomers where its safer, I wouldn't get any fulfillment from that and would grow old unhappy

Bad things happen, and that sucks
Mar 2 2010 11:48PM
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Craze
Posts: 1132 - Karma: 423
Well god decides when and how you die, if skiing is it be a happy mother fucker! Cause you may end up a lot worse, lets say trapped in a car for hours waiting for life flight and jaws of life, or a lovely bear attack, or maybe being slowly killed to death by Jeffy Dommer, lets just say when god decides its your time you dont have a choice. All those skiers left us in the most happy environment they possibly could have and for leaving us that way i view them as lucky.

If you decide to give up skiing because your scared of death give up everything, or just keep an eye out for big vans that may kidnapp you and cut you to death with a butter knife.
Mar 3 2010 12:18AM
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Craze
Posts: 1132 - Karma: 423
Well god decides when and how you die, if skiing is it be a happy mother fucker! Cause you may end up a lot worse, lets say trapped in a car for hours waiting for life flight and jaws of life, or a lovely bear attack, or maybe being slowly killed to death by Jeffy Dommer, lets just say when god decides its your time you dont have a choice. All those skiers left us in the most happy environment they possibly could have and for leaving us that way i view them as lucky.

If you decide to give up skiing because your scared of death give up everything, or just keep an eye out for big vans that may kidnapp you and cut you to death with a butter knife.
Mar 3 2010 12:22AM
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solitaryman
Posts: 3578 - Karma: 123
Sorry dude, i don't personally believe god decides when you die, same with a lot of people in this thread.  I think tripple strum has it right, death is gonna happen to us all, live it to the fullest, just hope you don't die!
Mar 3 2010 1:42AM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i know this whole "if i wasnt skiing, i wouldnt be living" blablabla. but honestly, if you see what happens when some young dude dies and what it does to the family and friends, idk.

you have a responsibility to your future and to the future of others and i think that making one step backwards is a good thing to do sometimes. i understand it for CR and shane and i dont think they were living on the edge when they died and were just very unlucky, but i hear it all the fuckin time: "comon dude, do that trick, try that double, go for it"

i can throw a lot of tricks, thanks and i dont like this "do or die" attitude. to be honest, with the progression of park skiing and people throwing mad stuff that cant ski to well, i can see more serious head/neck injuries, knees, ankles and shoulders in the next years. i feel like there has to be a change of attitude, people skiing for fun again rather than progression.


the increase in deaths is just logical due to the increase in people (and also more pros) doing the sport. but again, in the am-level, there has to be a change.
Mar 3 2010 9:24AM
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little_ey
Posts: 609 - Karma: 392
Let's not forget too that deaths and skiing can happen to everyone, not just those who push the sport.

For example, a 20 year study in Injury Magazine (Volume 34, Issue 12, Pages 892-896) reported that:

"A total of 274 skier deaths occurred between 1980 and 2001 in Colorado. Death rates ranged from 0.53 to 1.88 per million skier visits. The majority of deaths were among males (>81%). Ages ranged from 7 to 77 years with an average of 32 years. The greatest number of deaths associated with downhill skiing (76 deaths) occurred between 10:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. while the greatest number of deaths associated with cross-country skiing happened between 2:00 and 6:00 p.m. About 65% of deaths associated with downhill skiing (133 cases) died of traumatic injuries resulting from collisions."

Let's not forget all the celebrity skier deaths too. Natasha Richardson and that Kennedy playing football while skiing (we could have all seen that one coming).

We are all at risk every day we wake up, but that is why life is worth living.
Mar 3 2010 10:18AM
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JamesG.
Posts: 373 - Karma: 106
Some guy died at my mountain just skiing down a green circle trail. He went off and hit a tree
Mar 3 2010 10:23AM
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atomic1824
Posts: 358 - Karma: 290
This. Very respectfully written.

I've loved skiing with every fiber of my being for a long time and have given myself fully to it, but I have experienced a true change in my feeling about it now that I am looking to start a family with my wife. I am going to be a skier until I am old, not a skier remembered by those whole loved me until they are old. It is with this outlook that I approach all these risks. I may back down from this or that now, but it is usually still a good time when I do and it is mellower and it is even better to enjoy that afterglow amongst the company of my loved ones.
Mar 3 2010 12:43PM
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Craze
Posts: 1132 - Karma: 423
Very well put.
Mar 3 2010 2:17PM
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Chicago_Steeze
Posts: 27 - Karma: 10
I respect what you say, but some people don't consider this just a sport. I identify myself as a skier, driving to work my heart jumps when I see the snow on the mountains and know I won't touch it that day. This is a lifestyle for so many people, they don't consider themselves bankers, or accountants, or coaches, they consider themselves skiers because its a deeper passion than I think most can understand (except on this site I think a lot of people can relate). My girlfriend likes skiing, my family likes skiing, my friends like snowboarding, I LOVE skiing and everything that comes along with the risks of pushing yourself in the park, the glades, and the steeps. People that are willing to sleep in their cars or trucks on the weekends to get first chair and the most runs possible on powder days have a different dedication to this lifestyle that many others who would consider that absurd and stupid.

No one, not Shane or CR or the most immature person on here, would say they are willing to ski and definitely die young and tragically than never ski again. They knew there was a chance, a possibility, and they were willing to accept that, not certain death for a 'noble cause.'

Mar 3 2010 2:22PM
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feihlination
Posts: 8356 - Karma: 1,084
i know that people take that thing as a lifestyle, but take it to the extremes:

a guy with a gun gives you two options: stop skiing or die. what would you do?

i know its a silly situation and noone of us will be in it, but i just thought of a simple YES/NO situation so it is as easy as it can be.



if you say that the probability of dying is not as high, than ask yourself whether you would play russian roulette against that guy. with six, twenty or 1 million chambers. it doesnt matter, and i think with 1 million chambers the probability is about right. and to have the last step, think of the guy having multiple guns pointed at your knees, ankles, shoulders and your spine. again you can play russian roulette with him with all of the guns (six, 20 or 1 million chambers).

at how many chambers (=probability) would you keep playing (=skiing) rather than stopping it?



please bring the hate how this has nothing to do with it, but i just finished an microeconomics course with game theory and i really think that a risk/reward concept is applicable to the decision whether you ski or not. or to make it more complex, if you try a double or that techy big mountain line. idk, maybe i think about that stuff too much, but i dont want to sit in a wheelchair just because i was too dumb to think whether i was capable of landing that trick or not.
Mar 3 2010 2:47PM
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PULSEofdaNATION
Posts: 426 - Karma: 51

I don't understand why people are trying to argue about this. Everyone has their own opinion regarding skiing and the lifestyle it brings. Some are dedicated, everyday skiers while others are weekend warrriors so we will all have different perspectives.

I know personally I love to go up skiing and understand I am taking a risk everytime I go (Last time my  friend fell in like an 8 foot covered up hole in the middle of a skied out run). But I choose to take that risk because I enjoy it. Same when I jump on the tramp. Or even drive to school after getting 5 hours of sleep.

This is just my two cents and since everyone has different beliefs, I am not going to try to force my opinion on anyone.

Mar 3 2010 4:26PM
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smuggs
Posts: 6561 - Karma: 1,375
****URGENT NEWS FLASH*****

PEOPLE DIE EVERY DAY.
Mar 3 2010 5:29PM
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Chicago_Steeze
Posts: 27 - Karma: 10
This is getting pretty philosophical for my blood, but I get it.

To use your analogy against you (sort of), if I loved russian roulette as much as I love skiing I wouldn't want to play it with 1 million chambers, I would play with six.l
Mar 3 2010 5:56PM
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atomic1824
Posts: 358 - Karma: 290
I guess in light of what Oakl3ys said, I'd like to qualify what I said earlier about my change in attitude.

I am by no means a Weekend Warrior, I do in fact sleep eat and breathe skiing, yes my profile says Sustainable Building Design as my sponsor, so I do have a professional career and I am married which would both point to me being a fair weather fan of skiing. So I wanted to qualify what I said by emphasizing that I am no weekend warrior: I've lived the life, slept out my truck in Whistler and burned many an employment bridge to keep skiing at Baker. I continue to immerse myself in this sport. I am a skier with every fiber of my being.
Now, I own a house and work a 40hr week as an engineer, but I also have built my life as an adult around skiing. My field affords me the ability to work flexible hours, just gotta get 40 in a week. So if it snows I am up skiing, POW day, try and beat me to first chair. I've averaged 70 days a year for the 8 years I've lived and worked in Burlington. I still compete in as many local park events as I can. I am a skier in every sense.

And it is as a skier that I've noticed my change in attitude, I have nothing to prove to anyone else anymore, but myself. I work to progress my tricks when I can, but I am comfortable walking away from something to come back a better day to try it. I know there is still a big risk that i could be paralyzed or die and I accept those risks because I am actively aware of my risk vs. reward factor. The older I get the reward for dropping X more ft of cliff or adding just that one more 180 starts to pale in comparison to the reward I will feel by imparting this passion upon my kids.

I don't think there is a difference between the go-for-broke-ski-bum and the weekend warrior, we all make our own priorities whether consciously or not, and from those priorities your mind will always make decisions based on risk vs reward. As I've gotten older I've also recognized my decisions effect far more people then just me. Just make sure you are ready to sleep in the bed you make for yourself with those decisions you make and you are good to go. Life is to short to be lived in fear, but it is also to precious to be under appreciated.
Mar 3 2010 5:57PM
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yojimbo
Posts: 3631 - Karma: 27
I don't know man, having experienced deep depression and feelings of hopelessness coupled with a want to end my own life I'd say that when looking upon my life the only thing that i truly ever wanted to live for was to ski as hard as I could and to take those risks every time skiing. If you told me I was going to break my neck and die or get buried in an avvy and die next week, I most definitley would still boot up and go out there and get those few turns or those few seconds of airtime before dying without even looking back. We're all going to die in the end anyways, and if I were to live a long life, it wouldnt feel like a long "full" life to me unless I could look back on epic powder days, scary cliffs, and deadly large booters. 
Mar 3 2010 6:11PM
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bryant
Posts: 273 - Karma: 31
"The joy I get from skiing, it's worth dying for" - CR Johnson

when i heard this quote it was after he died. and im proud to admit i cried a little. And i feel like everything we do is dangerous granted some more than others. but i believe that if you die doing what you love, or die for something you love it is worth it.
Mar 3 2010 7:13PM
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mystic_bud
Posts: 51 - Karma: 10
I would rather die knowing that i was doing something i loved more then anything then dieing an old man. Skiing is a dangerous sport but knowing that you've pushed your self and your passion is well worth it.

Just watch Shane McConkey's segment in Push and everything will be clear young padawan
Mar 3 2010 7:31PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
i thought the exact same thing as soon as i read his name, but he is definitely alive
Mar 3 2010 7:35PM
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