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Communism vs. Capitalism

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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
It seems like there have been a bunch of threads that have turned into giant communism vs. capitalism shit storms.

Here's a thread to contain that and let other threads, ex: tattoo thread go on with the original topic.


Delphi, Gnartron, and ButtonGwinnett can start us off.

Let's refrain from blatant hate and use actual arguments. This worked really well in my history class, so I hope this can actually be an intelligent discussion.
Dec 16 2009 10:23PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
capitalism works for smaller nations and communism works for larger nations
Dec 16 2009 10:24PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
I would think the exact opposite
Dec 16 2009 10:26PM
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superpoluha
Posts: 1986 - Karma: 10
there is a balance between the two, russia is an extreme example of communism, and they arent too successful, the U.S. is all capitalism, and it hurts more people than it benefits
Dec 16 2009 10:27PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
true marxism does not work. some douchebag always fucks it up.


that being said, full on free market no limits capitalism also does not work, because the rich gain far too much power
Dec 16 2009 10:29PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
I'll put in my opinion to try to get it started.

IMO communism is better, but it only works if the whole world does it, or if it's in a completely isolated community. Like Marx said, communism takes time to achieve. It can't be achieved through an overnight revolution, it must be a long lasting paradigm shift.

In fact, the way I see it, the world is becoming more and more communist. America is adopting more socialist practices such as public education and now there is a push for public health care. If we don't kill each other first I believe that the world will eventually come to an equilibrium. A socialist world.

Keep in mind that the current world economic situation is very new.
Dec 16 2009 10:29PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Cite sources and show facts before you spew bullshit on something you dont know.
Dec 16 2009 10:29PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
The fact of the matter is communism only sounds good if you are a 13 year old kid on the big "OMG COMMUNISM B DIFFERENT!1" kick.

Everybody that has taken econ 101 knows that economics is all aboit incentives. You take away incentives, and you have a whole bunch of people that dont want to do anything, IE be unproductive = low output = lower standards of living
Dec 16 2009 10:31PM
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Goku
Posts: 8119 - Karma: 4,223
communism does not work because the vast majority of people only do they least amount of work they can to get by
Dec 16 2009 10:32PM
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idontactuallyski
Posts: 1320 - Karma: 19
yeah i feel like if i lived in a communist society, i would have no motivation to do anything with my life.
Dec 16 2009 10:33PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
I think capitalism could work really really really fuckin' well if companies were made responsible completely. No getting fucking bailed out, if your goddamn company fails you're going to go under and have to deal with the shit-storm that follows. I also think an international code of Business ethics should be established.
Dec 16 2009 10:34PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
Communism awards hard work in different ways than capitalism does. The most qualified people in communism will get the jobs they would most like to have. For example, say I want to be a glass blower, I would get the job if I work really hard.

The people who work the hardest will get the jobs they want the most.

Idk, I'll post more when I'm more fired up.
Dec 16 2009 10:35PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
China too with the industrial explosion. Great Leap Foward. also known as the Epic Fail Backward
Dec 16 2009 10:35PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
haha thanks for including me! My two cents are pathetic, but I still haven't started this bullshit final essay, so here goes.

Communism is terrible for America (it's terrible in general, but that's another argument) and would never work here because it's unconstitutional. Simple as that. Will never happen unless some dumbass politicians decide to disregard the constitution......oh wait, thats been happening since forever.
Dec 16 2009 10:36PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
look at china. 2 billion people. capitalism absolutely wouldn't work there. America, 300 million, capitalism works (sort of)
Dec 16 2009 10:37PM
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idontactuallyski
Posts: 1320 - Karma: 19
exactly, the government bailing all of those companies out was retarded IMO.
Dec 16 2009 10:37PM
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Franny
Posts: 3980 - Karma: 77
Karl Marx!!!
Dec 16 2009 10:37PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
yep, free market would have taken care of that shit for sure. At the same time, it's fucking ignorant to just hate on large companies because it's in vogue these days...get a clue, this country would be nothing without big business.
Dec 16 2009 10:40PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
Absolutely works, I'm pretty sure there are people who live in China who are still in the fucking stone age. We have a higher quality of living and generally enjoy more freedom. As a citizen of China, not so much. As a westerner, fuck yeah. Sort of a broad sweeping statement to say that capitalism wouldn't work, sure it would be a ridiculous change and would take a LOT of fucking hard work and just a shit-ton of reworking it could work.
Dec 16 2009 10:40PM
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Mac.
Posts: 953 - Karma: 24
Communism is just an idea that will never work because of one thing, human nature.
It is Human Nature to expect a reward after working hard.  It is also human nature to want more (ie. people wanting a raise, making more money after college compared to during high school). 
Greed is human nature, there is no denying that, people want things.

In communism it does not provide that idea for extra success, as there is no such thing as success since everyone must be the same.  Also that would not be fair as there are certain jobs that are much harder than others. 
I would hate to live in  communist state as I love the feeling of succeeding and advancing in whatever field I am in.

Communism is fantasy Capitalism and reality and an extremely smart and rational system
Dec 16 2009 10:42PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
china is really pseudo-communist at this point anyway. theres an awful lot of capitalist thought going on
Dec 16 2009 10:42PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
He also chopped the Canadian Military's balls off.
Dec 16 2009 10:43PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
You do realize that Hong Kong is one of the most capitalistic cities in the world right? The freedom and deregulation the Chinese government gives to its citizens allows anyone to create any business they want in a matter of a day.


Ugh, this is what I mean by research before you spew.
Dec 16 2009 10:44PM
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aquinn
Posts: 824 - Karma: 217
in theory both are great in their own ways, communism bringing ultimate equality and capitalism bringing choice, but all major countries are far from the definition of their political set up
Dec 16 2009 10:44PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
Oh speaking of communism, i saw a car with a hammer and sickle sticker on it and i drew a huge penis on it in snow.
Dec 16 2009 10:45PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html

Careful with pulling the human nature card. It's very difficult to do. We are raised in a capitalist environment so we believe that this is human nature.

It's not human nature to want a lambo, it's human nature to want to reproduce.

The success lies in what job you can get. Refer to my previous post.
Dec 16 2009 10:46PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
I guess you never had family that was directly affected by communism that lead to them immigrating to america and starting a business?

the inventor of the AK-47, never saw a dime of profit from his invention, that is rewarding how?
Dec 16 2009 10:46PM
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superpoluha
Posts: 1986 - Karma: 10
look, im not some 13 year old, i understand (mostly) how the economy works, you need to come to the realization that letting wealth trickle down from companies that have mass amount of power is unacceptable. thats all im saying.. nont tell me im spewing bullshit, thats just rude. its nothing about being different,. all about making life as enjoyable, and giving everyone a chance.
Dec 16 2009 10:47PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
But thats the beauty of a free market, capitalistic society. Everyone gets a chance. They aren't told what they will grow up to be.
Dec 16 2009 10:49PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
hey dumbass, giving everyone a chance is fine IMO but..you gotta work for it. I'm not gonna be nice about it and give some fat cocksucker who doesn't really even want a chance one. If you want something bad enough you will do anything to make it happen, capitalism rewards that by making you rich as fuck.
Dec 16 2009 10:49PM
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Franny
Posts: 3980 - Karma: 77
socialist
Dec 16 2009 10:50PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
With all due respect, first year student studying economics and history = someone whose thoughts are biased based on their textbooks and professors.
Dec 16 2009 10:50PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
Communism has never been executed properly. Why would anyone need lots of money if they got food, water, shelter, education, and health care provided for them? Plus, I don't think the AK-47 is the best example, it's a war machine.

The guy who found the cure for polio also didn't accept any money (I'm pretty sure it was polio)
Dec 16 2009 10:50PM
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dman1260
Posts: 899 - Karma: 13
I think we should come to an agreement that both capitalism and communism, in their pure forms, either do not work (in the case of capitalism) or are impossible to achieve (in the case communism).

Now, with that out of the way, I have to side with capitalism. I say that, because as others have said, communism is extremely difficult to achieve even in a watered down form. Humans, by nature, are opportunistic. If they can get fat and happy, or even less, survive, without putting forth much effort, they will do just that. Communism allows humans, or at least those willing to defy the system, to put forth less than their full effort and reap equal benefits to someone who puts forth full effort. As a result, communist nations would not reach their full potential and each and every person would lose out because of that.

Capitalism, on the other hand, allows those who put forth the most effort to succeed. While this is not always the case, the system generally rewards those who deserve it. And, if you add a little government control to the equation, a capitalist society can ensure that even those who expend little effort or are incapable to live a reasonable life (not saying this is the case in any modern capitalist society).

Most of all, I like the idea of being able to get ahead because I work my ass off and out compete the guy next to me. May not be everyone's idea of the way a system should work, but it is something that I appreciate about the capitalist system.

Dec 16 2009 10:50PM
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idontactuallyski
Posts: 1320 - Karma: 19
ok yeah i realize that it probably helped our economy, but i just don't think it's fair they were bailed out. I am capitalistic, and i believe that if your business fails, then your business fails.
Dec 16 2009 10:51PM
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Franny
Posts: 3980 - Karma: 77
I vote for laissez faire!
Dec 16 2009 10:52PM
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Triple_Strum
Posts: 6384 - Karma: 953

The entire concept of socialism/communism is predicated on one thing that will never be true: that people are good.  Capitalism works because people are greedy and will work hard enough to get what they want.  Socialism is based on the idea that people are good.  The problem is, they aren't.  If everyone preferred others to themselves then yes, it is would be ideal because everyone's needs would be met.  However, men are not good.  You can argue that point with me all day, but it is mute. 

Do I truly favor capitalism?  I think it is the probably just the lesser of the evils, if you will.  It has great flaws, just like any human system.  And please, NO ONE use China, Russia or some of the other socialist nations as a good example.  Don't say it is working for China just because they are prospering economically.  Meanwhile, they are an oppressed country.  The government controls every media and informational outlet and there is little freedom.

Dec 16 2009 10:53PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Communism has never been executed properly, because it cant be executed properly. Thats like saying world peace has never been executed properly. Of course it hasn't, its a noble thought, but it'll never occur.

And okay, if not AK-47, the guy who invented tetris. Never saw a dime.
Dec 16 2009 10:54PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
The problem with capitalism is that it's way too ideal. It is under the assumption that everyone starts out at a level playing field. If this were true then I'd be all for capitalism, but many people work their asses off and never make nearly as much as the trust fund babies who don't do jack shit.

Personally, I think the best system is what Denmark has given the current state of the world economic system.
Dec 16 2009 10:55PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
I really enjoy your post, but I fucking hate that lesser of two evils shit. For some reason it just bugs the fuck out of me.
Dec 16 2009 10:55PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
economic survival of the fittest ftw
Dec 16 2009 10:55PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
Is this hypothetical or true?
Dec 16 2009 10:56PM
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idontactuallyski
Posts: 1320 - Karma: 19
and i also have a question for you people... if ever this "ideal" form of communism was executed in our/your nation, would you actually want to live in it? No hate, i just know i sure as hell wouldn't.
Dec 16 2009 10:56PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Broad question. Do you mean the tetris guy? Cause it is true.
Dec 16 2009 10:57PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
ahahaha tetris. that poor guy. funniest story ever.
Dec 16 2009 10:58PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
Sorry, yeah, I meant the tetris guy. Can you give me more specifics?
Dec 16 2009 10:59PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
He lived in communist russia = didnt get moneyz
Dec 16 2009 11:01PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
Alexey Pajitnov created Tetris with the help of Dmitry Pavlovsky and Vadim Gerasimov in 1985. The game, first available in the Soviet Union, appeared in the West in 1986. Pajitnov also created the lesser known sequel to Tetris, entitled Welltris, which has the same principle but in athree dimensional environment where you see the "board" from above.[2] Tetris was licensed and managed by Soviet company Elorg which had been founded specially for this purpose, and advertised with the slogan "From Russia with Love" (on NES: "From Russia With Fun!"). Because he was employed by the Soviet government, Pajitnov did not receive royalties. Pajitnov, together with Vladimir Pokhilko, moved to the United States in 1991 and founded The Tetris Company with Henk Rogers.
Dec 16 2009 11:02PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
thats the short and sweet.


intellectual property was not a concept that existed in the soviet union.
Dec 16 2009 11:04PM
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Mac.
Posts: 953 - Karma: 24
I completely agree with this and it is pretty much my exact same view.
Dec 16 2009 11:05PM
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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
Yeah, that's not good, but keep in mind, the concept behind communism is that the state will wither away. Aka there will be no government to keep all that money. The money would get put back into the community and increase every body's quality of life.

There isn't even a need for money in a truly communist world.



Oh, and keep in mind, I completely see where you guys are coming from when you defend capitalism. I'm arguing for the ideal of communism, because IMO, if you push for the whole thing, then you can settle for something like socialism, but if you push for socialism, you end up settling for less.
Dec 16 2009 11:07PM
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