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Heal toe shifting

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Frostfired
Posts: 3090 - Karma: 35
Who can do it
and how long did it take you to get the hang of it
Dec 15 2009 7:58PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
lolwut



do you mean *heel?
Dec 15 2009 8:02PM
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*rkp*
Posts: 8198 - Karma: 257
"heel" ^



it's not a big deal. just practice.
Dec 15 2009 8:07PM
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.jesus.
Posts: 2288 - Karma: 22
what?
Dec 15 2009 8:13PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
i do it occasionally, its tough to master and it doesnt always work well
for some reason, i will keep my foot on the brake to slow down, the let off the brake and revv, but when i let off the break (rather then heel toeing and staying on the brake) the momentum of the carr kinda speeds it back up and it gets gross....

its just something you work on, i've definitely done better with downshifting and bliping the throttle, but cornering is tough
Dec 15 2009 8:13PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
its not exactly heel-toe, but more like having the ball of your foot on the brake and rolling your pinky toe to blip the throttle.

if you have small feet with driver shoes then yea heel toe, but its just easier doing it that way^ and its the same thing.
Dec 15 2009 8:15PM
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rockjumper
Posts: 496 - Karma: 13
work on rev matching first. learn how to match your gears with your revs. dont worry about the brakes just learn how to match gears first. when you get to the brakes,  make sure to keep your heel planted too. if you slip up and catch a little more brake than you thought, its gonna be a quick stop with your heel off the floor. 
Dec 15 2009 8:20PM
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Frostfired
Posts: 3090 - Karma: 35
yes i ment heel, spelling is not one of my strong points haha
And ya I've been doing revmatching for a while now, but when it comes to heel toe it just messes me up, using my heel to blip the throttle its always more near to the bottom of the throttle so it become harder to precisely increase the rpms it get frustrating
Dec 15 2009 8:40PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
just watch racing videos on youtube that might have the in-car with pedal camera.


best motoring videos are good.

this is what i was saying, watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocrvaw3d4UM
Dec 16 2009 12:13AM
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Mr.Capone
Posts: 1227 - Karma: 109
I do it every time I downshift to rev match. I learned it a week after getting my license, so 5 years ago
Dec 16 2009 12:19AM
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shredables
Posts: 647 - Karma: 19
didnt take too long to learn.. the part that takes a while is being able to do it fast
Dec 16 2009 12:37AM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
what use would this be in any situation that isnt racing? i dont really understand why you wouldnt just shift when you need to, it takes a split second
Dec 16 2009 12:37AM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
mainly for kids driving around in their dads leased bmw.  hoping there are chicks standing on the corner so they can hear the sick rev match broooooooooooooooo.
Dec 16 2009 12:45AM
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Frostfired
Posts: 3090 - Karma: 35
The difference is actually for when you are taking corners and need to slow down when you turn, And once you have slowed down that gear you are in is not suitable to accelerate out of the turn.

Lets say you are driving at 70 km/h in 4th gear  and you are coming up to a turn that requires you to slow down to 40km/h. What alot of people will do is start to brake, they will see their revs are dropping really low because the engine is slowing down and they will push in the clutch until they have finished the turn and only then will they switch to 3rd.

The problem with this is if mid turn you have to accelerate you cant do anything because the engin is disengaged or even if the cluch is not pushed down you wont be able to acelerate becasue you will no longer be in the good range of the 4th gear. It also makes transitioning out of the turn alot smoother becasuse you will be able to accelarate out of the turn.

Someone is probably gonna say oh then why dont you downshift befor you start braking, and the answer to that is becausse befor you start breaking your engine speed will be too high for 3rd gear only once you start breaking will the engin speed get low enought for 3rd gear to be effective.

And I know its not a big difference and its not the end of the world if you do it or not, but, if you are able to (downshift/rev match and brake at the same time) then it does impact your driving even if it is slightly it still makes a difference
Dec 16 2009 1:00AM
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hartig
Posts: 8192 - Karma: 10
i do it all the time
i hardly use my brakes actually, especially since they suck so much dick
Dec 16 2009 1:08AM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Try turning your foot the other way and hit both pedals at once with the upper part of your foot.
Dec 16 2009 1:08AM
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ShredTheGnarnia
Posts: 2544 - Karma: 79

yeah i can. but when you're really good is when you can heel-toe double clutch downshift :D

i can heel toe and i can double clutch but i cant really do them simultaneously effectively yet

Dec 16 2009 1:08AM
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bootleg_BEN
Posts: 2499 - Karma: 44
I see what you mean.


But in a normal driving scenario such as driving to work, when you arnt really driving than this doesnt matter. But if you are driving say a little more aggressive and are thinking about your driving then yes this would be a good thing to learn.


But i drive a super, and i mean ridiculously slow truck so i have pretty much no acceleration no matter the gear so this is something that in no way will affect me.
Dec 16 2009 1:12AM
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*rkp*
Posts: 8198 - Karma: 257
double-clutching is completely unnecessary in any car built within the past 20 years
Dec 16 2009 1:21AM
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ShredTheGnarnia
Posts: 2544 - Karma: 79
have you ever tried going from 2nd down to 1st while going like 25 mph? shit is tough, you really have to push hard on the shifter. it is really bad on your synchros. however, if you double clutch, it pops right in, and there is no unnecessary stress on your synchros.
Dec 16 2009 1:25AM
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hartig
Posts: 8192 - Karma: 10
..its just as easy as heel-toe
Dec 16 2009 1:28AM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
(thanks a lot for the explanation). hmm i feel like to account for that i just downshift then let the clutch out slowly is that bad? or just stay in gear and shift when i need to (considering it literally takes a split second)
Dec 16 2009 1:29AM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
which at once both slows me down (so no brake necessary) and revmatches
Dec 16 2009 1:30AM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
oh and why is having the clutch in during a turn "a big no no" in racing? i dont do it, im just curious why its a no no
Dec 16 2009 1:31AM
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ShredTheGnarnia
Posts: 2544 - Karma: 79
i think it might be something about your throwout bearings, im not sure tho, im curious about this too
Dec 16 2009 1:43AM
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Frostfired
Posts: 3090 - Karma: 35
You could do that but in that case you are using your clutch to slow down your driveterian(wheels) and yes it does work but it also puts unessesary wear on the clutch, since you have a momemnt where your clutch is partialy engaged and when you do this you are "grinding the clutch" short term its not a big difference but in the long term it reduces the life of your clutch.

You are also using your transmition and engin to slow the car, making them do more work, again in the short term it makes no difference but you could be using the brakes to do that because thats what they are designed for and because in the end brakes cost less then engin parts and transmition parts

And lastly because it messes up the balance on the car, because when you do that you are slowing down with more of a jerk (if you dont time it completly right) and this can throw off the balance and put your care into a spin in extreame situations, but this last one doesnt really apply unless you are going like 150km/h that where a shift in balance can skrew you over but otherwise this point isnt really realistic.

and the reason race car drivers say its a no-no two reasons i can thing of, first of all you have no control of the car with your clutch in, you can only break and can't speed up, and secondly, if the cluch is in during the turn it means they are going to have to down shift after the turn, which means they loose a hundreth of a second, wherease if they heel-toe they are doing the shift as they brake and therefor save that hundreth, racing is alot more technical then alot of people think
Dec 16 2009 1:44AM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
again, thanks for your time spent explaining this to me.

i can understand the wearing of the clutch, since its partially engaged, but i dont understand the part about putting more work on your engine.. i mean, isnt that what you do when you engine brake? i thought engine braking was "good" (when used well, not just throwing it into 3rd when youre flying obviously) cause it cut down on your use of your brakes haha
Dec 16 2009 1:48AM
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Frostfired
Posts: 3090 - Karma: 35
Ya that is what engine breaking is, your using the engine to slow the wheels and not the brakes, and don't get me wronge the engin can handle it but think of it this way, which way will you're engine last longer

1. Using it to accelerate and to slow your car (it can do both with no problem)
2. Using it to just accelerate

If you do 1. your brake life will be alot longer because you use them less but your engine life will be shorter because you are using it for more things
I dont know if that makes sense, but by making the engine not have to slow down the car (even if it is able to do that) you are using it less, therfor putting less wear on it.

and you would rather have to replace your engine rather then your brakes
as i said tho this makes no difference short term, but lets say in 10 years the extra use of the engin add up.

also another reason you dont want to use engin breaking is lets say there is a car close to you behind you and you use your engine to brake, he has no warning that you are slowing down because no brake lights when you engin brake, all it take is one dumb guy behind you and you get rear ended
Dec 16 2009 1:58AM
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ECfreeski3
Posts: 12019 - Karma: 126
word man, thats what i thought. thanks for the info. and i get what youre saying about the lack of brake lights but thats really nice in the right situation. i was going a bit too fast by a cop the other day and instead of braking i just downshifted (i was close enough in rpms) and voila, no brake lights to get his attention!
Dec 16 2009 2:01AM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
It is healthy to use engine braking on a semi-frequent basis.  Engine braking is required for proper setting of ringlands on a newer engine, since you can't put as much load on the car from acceleration.  Engine braking in and of itself isn't harmful to your engine at all, it is harmful to your driveline especially if you don't know what you are doing.  Your transmission is what is taking the force from engine braking, however, just trusting your brakes is not a good idea.

 While you shouldn't always use engine braking, you definitely need it in some situations and it is something that you want to use occasionally regardless.  If you are coming from a high rate of speed to a stoplight, from an expressway for example, the heat generation from your brakepads will cause them to completely fade out unless you are using high quality pads.  Engine braking is necessary to ensure you aren't overheating your brakes and to give you a proper stop time.

As for Heel-Toe Shifting, for the average clutch driver it isn't necessary.  When you downshift you are being somewhat rough on your transmission, but it is what they are designed for.  They design transmissions to take a little punishment.   The best reason to use heel-toe shifting or rev matching is for downshifting in a high performance car that has a lot of ponies.  If you don't downshift properly, you can torque shock your transmission and greatly reduce the life of the synchros.  But that is only in certain situations and for the most part it isn't that bad, and I am talking only in cars that are really pushing a lot of power, like 350-500 whp.

The only time it is necessary to heel-toe is when using a dogbox, or straight cut gears.  The gears won't line up without rev matching.
Dec 16 2009 2:27AM
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comeatmebro
Posts: 10720 - Karma: 66
why the fuck would you downshift to first going 25 mph?

honestly double clutching is pretty much useless and provides almost no advantage these days. a good driver doesn't need to double clutch, it offers no extra help.
Dec 16 2009 9:05AM
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OMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 954 - Karma: 208
flat foot shifting FTW lol
Dec 16 2009 9:19AM
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sTr8_JiBbiN
Posts: 494 - Karma: 43
i dont know
Dec 16 2009 9:39AM
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shredables
Posts: 647 - Karma: 19
this.
mostly apparent in drifting rwd or awd cars
Dec 16 2009 10:20AM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51626 - Karma: 162,075
Good old standards. I fucking hate when you get in an auto, you put it in gear and the car starts to drive. Or when somethings in the road and i slam the brake thinking it's the clutch.

I was pretty ripped though. Standards are such a smoother drive, in all conditions. Only time it sucks is when you hit a goddamn traffic jam for a few hours.
Dec 16 2009 11:59AM
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Scolson
Posts: 2904 - Karma: 92
Becuase you need to smoothly accelerate out of the corner.  If you have the clutch in in the corner, you will need to engage it before you finish the corner, and that can upset the car's handling.  And that difference can be staying on course and making a good time or going wide into the grass.
Dec 16 2009 12:35PM
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Frostfired
Posts: 3090 - Karma: 35
its the biggest pain when your ctuck in bumper to bumper traffic of the highway
Dec 16 2009 5:22PM
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Inbred_Redneck
Posts: 2776 - Karma: 28
I wish i could, but the gas pedal in my truck is set too far back from my brake pedal, so i cant heel toe at all.
Dec 16 2009 5:48PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51626 - Karma: 162,075
Yup. Get a nice dead leg going. I sometimes try to throw my leg across and stretch when nobody is moving. Such a pain in the ass, especially when your tired and have been driving the whole day
Dec 16 2009 5:50PM
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sickskisman
Posts: 72 - Karma: 13

depending on how you pedels are alligned it will be harder to 'heel toe' if the throttle is set further back than the brake pedal. if the throttle is flush with the brake pedal then no problom.

Dec 16 2009 6:02PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
for the general well-being of the car, it you should do it
instead of engaging your clutch when the engine and tramission are moving at two different speeds, you engage them at the same speed, putting less wear on the clutch and creating a smoother transition. doesnt make sense NOT to do it
Dec 16 2009 6:05PM
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bermbuster49
Posts: 7445 - Karma: 90
i only rev-match when i'm pulling into parking lots for car meets.


it gets the chicks...lets just say that.
Dec 16 2009 6:08PM
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Inbred_Redneck
Posts: 2776 - Karma: 28
Do you drive an 4 banger S10 too? If you do i know exactly what you mean...
Dec 16 2009 6:09PM
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no_steeze
Posts: 23992 - Karma: 4,272
i use it for downshifting, it's a much smoother shift if you keep it slightly reved as you release the clutch so that there's not lurching when you slow down...instead you rev and allow the car to come down to speed in the gear you just shifted into as opposed to letting the gears slow the car down which makes it lurch and jump
Dec 16 2009 6:11PM
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vincentlee223
Posts: 1571 - Karma: 382
I thought this was about drumming...
Dec 16 2009 6:13PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
yea bro

car meets?

hood...always open.
Dec 16 2009 7:14PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
haha, im going to get into this fight with you again
not revv matching puts wear on the engine, definitely not the transmission or the synchros.
and straight cut gears without a synchro requires double clutching, not revv matching, two different things!!

i will fight this to the death
Dec 16 2009 8:34PM
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Mr.Capone
Posts: 1227 - Karma: 109
since everything is better with videos, here's some really pretty footwork. Lots of heel toe in there. First one is at 8 sec. Impressive 2 gear downshift at :35. Enjoy!


Dec 16 2009 10:10PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
real men don't use the clutch, they just shift
Dec 16 2009 10:31PM
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aquinn
Posts: 824 - Karma: 217
this
Dec 16 2009 10:52PM
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brokebutitsworthit
Posts: 2279 - Karma: 27
Biggest reason is to avoid unsettling the car at the limit, not really relevant for 90% of NS, but it is still fun to do.  It is a lot easier to do it when you're messing around in your car than it is on a course, shit comes up so fast it takes some time to get comfortable. 

Anyway, here you go, heel toe and double clutching on the track

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Dec 16 2009 11:11PM
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