Where America Went Wrong

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how have i not fully and comprehensively covered the initial question?

i ended the thread because people like you just continue this useless, frivolous, totally unsophisticated bantering about a subject you don't understand.

I mean look at the shit youve said in this thread? What the fuck are you talking about? Youre just rambling incoherent nonsense, interjecting a big textbook term here or there.

Quit learning the names to all the concepts and learn the concepts themselves.

Dec 10 2009 12:15PM

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SMH[-__-]

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political threads on this site = worse than fart jokes

Dec 10 2009 12:17PM

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bhill2.0

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Voting that black guy into office because it was cool at the time.

Dec 10 2009 12:19PM

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For example, not that i don't agree with you but at the least try to talk about the parties themselves without polluting the discussion with partisan politics.

Out of your discussion of political parties you have really made the following arguments:

1. government bureaucracy is bad and you generally oppose expansion of government

2. you don't believe in "printing more money". you oppose bailouts. you support capitalism.

3. based on your logic, healthcare was affordable circa 2006. you don't think government can accomplish anything. you believe government wastes a lot of money.

Where in those 3 general assertions do you discuss the role and scope of political parties at all? How do your opinions of current politics relate to the mechanical function of political parties???

Dec 10 2009 12:22PM

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also its facet of our lives not faction of our lives lol.

Dec 10 2009 12:24PM

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What on gods fucking earth are you talking about?

United States Constitution:

Article 1 (The Legislature):

Section 8 (Powers of Congress):

Clause 1:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Revenue Act of 1861

Wilson-Gorman Tarrif

United States Constitution:

16th Ammendment:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

woooooooowwwww

Dec 10 2009 12:46PM

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skitheslopes

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this is true, and now some international corporation can pay your state senators salary in exchange for some federal tax protection while they slip into your state and suck resources out without having to pay property tax or state sales tax.

If the states dont have the power to raise money then our counties, cities, and towns cant ensure jobs, maintain roads, educate children, and fund local growth; these things keep our society running smooth. People do the rest.

Dec 10 2009 1:04PM

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i just want my $50,000

Dec 10 2009 1:16PM

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Injecting a big textbook term here and there? I don't even think I've used a big word in this thread.

"learning the names to all the concepts and learn the concepts themselves." Which concepts do you speak of, specifically?

"totally unsophisticated bantering about a subject you don't understand. I mean look at the shit youve said in this thread? What the fuck are you talking about? Youre just rambling incoherent nonsense, "

For the most part I was talking about how government getting far too involved actually caused a lot of the problems were seeing today in the economy. That can be backed up with facts. Believe me I know the concepts well enough.

I really don't see what your point is. This simply a pointless call out post, where you put out no information that challenges anything I said. " frivolous, totally unsophisticated bantering" oooooo he's trying to use big words. I really don't understand that point.

So what exactly are you talking about argument wise. Please be specific

Dec 10 2009 1:40PM

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First off I haven't been discussing partisan politics. You've simply heard that to much and try to apply it to everything. I don't even affiliate with a political party.

As for not talking about parties anywhere.

"It's a weird situation. They keep our country divided, hating each other. Keep us from unifying toward a common goal. Makes it even harder to keep the gov in check when were at war with each other.

At the same time, both parties are pushing through the same policies and legislation right now. Were so divided in terms of hating the other "side" but each "side" actually has a ton in common. It works quite well though.

the news outlet for each "side" gives them something to hate about the other "side" that isn't the main underlying problem. Like bush being stupid,or obama being black. Or some of the small surface issues that will be up for mindless debate forever. If the opposing side already has "reasons" to hate a lot of times they'll stick to diving into them specifically, they won't see the root. the people on that "side", won't see the problems in their "side" either because they believe that there side is inherently good and the other side evil. Even if they notice any flaws on their "side", it's still the lesser or two evils."

"It's not the parties themselves I have a problem with, it's more what they have become. And something major needs to change."

You apparently didn't even listen to what I said about health care. As for those statements I can back up my claims. As far as government intervention, printing money, bailouts and capitalism, facts and history firts pretty well into what I'm trying to say. Especially printing money. You make it seem as thought you don't agree with my stance on that issue, in which case I would love to see where you stand and hear your arggument to support it.

Dec 10 2009 1:53PM

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An10a_Eng

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September 22, 1862

Dec 10 2009 1:59PM

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I'd rather have a piece of the Agro-crag that this bs Agro-cheque.

Dec 10 2009 2:03PM

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antwone

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just my opinion, its not really democratic when u can only vote for 2 different parties

Dec 10 2009 2:05PM

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at least you've got a choice. And there are always the peripheral parties who leech votes away from the dems and repubs, though voting for them is like throwing your vote away, because let's face it, Ralph Nader will never win an election.

Dec 10 2009 2:10PM

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FrenchToastMafia

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i watched south park last night and now im convinced we should all be atheist "kill the great one"

Dec 10 2009 2:33PM

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first off, let me just say lol. clearly you cant distinguish a sophisticated thorough analysis of the issue with relevant conceptual tools, and you who just parrot what you read in mainstream and/or fringe media, and not what you have devoted your life to studying.

Maybe my issue with your posts is not that you don't mention the issues, rather its more that you don't substantiate anything you say.

You say "they keep our country divided, hating each other."

If you are gonna make that outrageous of a claim, you better be able to back it up. How do they keep our country divided, hating each other? Would our country not eventually coalesce towards the polls regardless of the existence of actual political parties?

Again, how are they passing the same legislation?! I think youre confusing the actions of a Democratically controlled Congress under a lame duck Bush as Republican initiatives.

Your gripe is with the media and how they can be influenced by money. Not with the parties. Any political entity could pump money into a media source if they have enough money. If warren buffet ever tried to run for president...

I want to see you backing up your claims with real evidence. You're just a flat out idiot if you think government intervention, printing money, bailouts, or capitalism have anything to do with the function of political parties. Those issues are merely what the parties use now, currently, as a platform and have very little to do with political parties themselves.

I assure you i very much do agree with you on the issue, just in a more researched, more sophisticated way. And you don't see me making broad generalizations. ever. I always back up my assertions with a giant wall of text such as this one.

Partisan Politics N. -

1. The issues with which political parties have branded themselves with as their platforms.

2. The act of promoting a set of issues associated with one's own party, even when those issues have no relevance to the subject matter.... say the function of political parties.

Remember folks, don't inject partisan politics (you clearly don't recognize a "textbook" term when it is used correctly, as you clearly inject petty partisan politics into everything you say) into the discussion of parties. Its tough to avoid the temptation, but stay strong.

Remember, the issues parties stand for now were the opposite before Roe v. Wade.

Dec 10 2009 6:35PM

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I think you need to re-read what I wrote.

How is it not democratic? Political parties only facilitate democracy.

Again, if you cant gather 51 votes in the Senate, you can't pass a bill. You cant get 51 people out of the entire population to agree on anything in America, so what chance do you have in the Senate?

The answer is to cooperate. Now since we have a clear majority voting system in the legislature, and a winner take all system in the executive, you only see two parties in the USA rather than a bunch in a westminster system.

The 2 different offer a broad range of interests and the function of political parties in the USA is vastly different from those in Europe. Here the function is merely to cooperate in order to achieve a collective majority.

Within each party, theres a lot of infighting and further compromise.

While you only get 2 ultimate candidates for president, keep in mind you start out with like 10, each representing a different set of interests. They're branded as "Democrat" or "Republican" in the end, but when they start the party name is merely just a label.

And since these days in order to run for president, one depends on their party's endorsement, wouldn't you rather have 2 parties who work very hard for literally 4 years to produce the best possible candidate they have to offer?

Survival of the Fittest.

Spark Notes: Don't be a retard and actually read all of the above.

Dec 10 2009 6:41PM

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Where-am-I

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what do you mean by turned into something corrupt? what do you think they were before? corruption has always been an issue in politics, what makes you think that political parties today have somehow lost legitimacy. political parties are simply institutions that allow the average citizen to easily access the political sphere. so get educated, make logical decisions that fit your ideals in the voting booth. if your candidate doesn't make the political decisions you want, then don't vote for them or that party. in my opinion it is sensationalist media, NOT political parties that our corrupting the decision making abilities of voters

Dec 10 2009 7:12PM

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Your view of the system is naive at best. As for our country. You keep mentioning democracy as though it was the original plan for our country. We were founded as a constitutional republic. that;s important. You don't even read that in a history book anymore.All you hear is democracy. And we've shifted past even that by this point.

Dec 11 2009 3:02AM

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Mr.Panda

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And we agree! I think the world is gonna end.

Dec 11 2009 4:34AM

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please stop talking i think youve proven to everyone youre a flat out retard with your "there is no income tax law" bullshit

My view of the system? How is it a view? how is it my view? Its simply the empirical observatory description of what actually happens.

Constitutional republic? what kind of nonsense comes out of your mouth? We were founded as a constitutional republic?!!?!?!?! We were founded as a federal republic you dumbass. The term constitutional republic was named after us! You can see the logical fallacy there.

How do i mention democracy as though it was the original plan? You must have trouble reading or you might just not understand what i'm saying all together...

im saying political parties help facilitate legislative processes... in fact all of my points thus far have held federalism as an integral component. what on earth are you talking about kid?

Dec 11 2009 12:58PM

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skithebert

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has anyone thought about what happens when we don't have a two party system? if there are no political parties or many hundreds of political parties? democracy becomes an unbelievable shitshow. each little group of people has their own agenda and politcal ideals. without nationwide parties to force people to concede to some of their ideals for the good of the party then we end up with a bunch of bickering among weak disjointed groups of people and it brings democracy to a total standstill. people have no reason to not fight for everything they want and nothing they don't.
forget about passing any laws or having any sort of central government. this may work adequately in very small nations that are homogenous politically, culturally, economically, and geographically but for a country like the US, political parties are a necessary and natural political tool. you wanna get rid of political parties go to country that still has a dictator. either that or shut up and quit bitching

Dec 11 2009 1:28PM

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have.faith

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the two parties work to an extent. i mean we have to balance everything out somehow. but i feel like its become far too competitive and its creating more problems than solutions. none the less i think our country has become too dependent on them to take them away. and thus ruining politics.

Dec 11 2009 1:37PM

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don't be naive, politics has been competitive since the beginning of time, and there have always been major parties in US politics, since before we even had the constitution we (dont) adhere to today. If you look at any major US presidential election in the history of the country, you will realize that we have been doing the same shit forever. It used to be worse back then though, think Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton. Also, before that, John Adams V Thos. Jefferson, those two went at it, but somehow they were able to put aside their differences and become friends again before they died on the exact same day, 4th of July.

Dec 11 2009 1:48PM

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Only gradually would Americans learn that ongoing electoral competition
was the most satisfactory long-term remedy for conflicts in a republic.

just pulled that from an article on Shays' Rebellion, has some pertinence to this debate.

Dec 11 2009 2:03PM

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Wow, not trying to hate, but you sort of deserve it. calling me names, lol. You my friend are a complete idiot. Sorry, but it's true.

For starters, the income tax law. Go ahead and attempt to find the law that proves the average american citizen is liable to pay an income tax. Amuse yourself, do for it.

As for the the system. Are you seriously going to try to blast me on that? A federal republic, or a constitution based federal republic, which has been referred to as a constitutional republic. My point was your repeated use of democracy.

Dec 11 2009 3:43PM

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Tasche

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do you pay income taxes. Then you are a fucking idiot.

Shut the fuck up with this income tax shit, every one has know about this since 8th grade.

Dec 11 2009 3:46PM

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I do not anymore. Because I do not have too. If by "knowing about this" you mean knowing that you aren't required to pay(which I doubt) than good for you.

But I was responding to jumister, who clearly doesn't understand that. You can see where they change the wording through the different tax codes. In the 50s, it wasn't that unclear that you really didn't have to pay it. They changed the wording to complicate it. When they revise the tax code, they have to make a note when they change the actual meaning of certain pieces, not just the wording. This did not happen particular sections, so the meaning from before is the same today.

As for legal situations. Why have they never produced the law? Even in court cases?

Dec 11 2009 3:53PM

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And jumister. It seemed like you were saying that the candidates are vastly different and that something notable actually changes every 4 or 8 years.

If that's not what you meant than I simply misunderstood you.

Dec 11 2009 3:54PM

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Tasche

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no again you show your arrogance. Everyone knows there is no specific law on the books about income tax. However abolishing this law would bankrupt our country so it is basically a law. Only under very small circumstances have people ever not paid. WE ALL KNOW THIS TO BE THE CASE YOU ARE NOT SPREADING UNIQUE OR INSIGHTFUL INFORMATION. PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE YOU HAVE GREATER KNOWLEDGE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

Answer this question: Do you pay income tax?

Dec 11 2009 3:58PM

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"Everyone knows there is no specific law on the books about income tax." Oh really? There are quite a lot of people who have absolutely know idea about that.

"Only under very small circumstances have people ever not paid" Again not true.

"Answer this question: Do you pay income tax?"
"I do not anymore. Because I do not have too" first thing i said before, apparently you didn't read any of it.

Dec 11 2009 4:06PM

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Mr.Panda

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To the bitching about the income tax here is something you need to know. That is up to the STATES to decide on. They can either have a State Income Tax or a Sales Tax. Most states outside of WA (only one I can really think of right now) have an income tax because a sales tax is very VERY hard to collect. This stems from having a strong federal government that still wanted to give the states rights.

Dec 11 2009 8:11PM

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skitheslopes

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ron paul

Dec 11 2009 8:16PM

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A.Eberhard

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We could change to communism or a dictatorship? So let's just not complain we have our freedom.

Dec 11 2009 8:30PM

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skiminnesota

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if you live in the peoples state of Minnesota you pay both.

going off the top of my head, we are the 6th highest per capita taxed state in the country.

our sales tax is 7% on a whole number of items (although not on clothing, and we do have Americas biggest mall)

our state income tax tops out at 9%

my parents pay a couple K a year in property taxes

we levied a special sales tax in my county to build a fucking twins baseball stadium.

my state is currently facing a budget biennium deficit of over a billion dollars.

this state is so ass backwards its not even funny.

Dec 12 2009 1:51AM

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h_bar

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Americans are greedy basterds, i recently watched SiCKO for the first time for some days ago. I mean, just to have a healthcare system that works(come on, your doesn't) you dont have to be a socialist. The amount of tax you americans is equalent to the shitty services you get back from your country. Compared to Norway you dont pay taxes. My father is a captain in the Scandinavian Airlines, he makes a good $200 000 a year before tax, after tax he he's left with about $100 000. For this i got free daycare when i was little, free school untill when im done with high school, i got free pre school, we dont pay medical bills, we pay a small amount of the dentalbills. Yes Norway is an expensive country, but we've got a smaller amount of people under the povertyline than the US.

Norway, according to the UN, is the best country in the world to live in

Dec 12 2009 6:49AM

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