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Thinking Challenge Time

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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844

A task for you NS.

You contact an alien civiliation over, say, radio. You want to describe to these aliens, who have never seen or observed a human being, the concept of left versus right, so that when the two of you actually meet, you'll know which hand to stick out to greet in an appendage-shake.

So, what can you ask them to make sure our "Right" is their "Right"? Is it possible?

Dec 8 2009 12:35AM
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TheButterHashira
Posts: 9691 - Karma: 1,702
If its aliens they might not have similar dna or even be carbon based. Silicon and nitrogen are possible substitutes for carbon as the basis of life.
It still could spin the same way but dna spins clockwise because all organisms on earth share the same model for dna and its unlikely that aliens would have the same model.

Semantically describing left and right to a species we know nothing about sounds impossible.
Dec 8 2009 8:42PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Nobody has got it yet, though you've all been really intrepid in poking holes in your peers solution, good demonstration of scientific review going on here NS. Keep at it, there have been some tantalizingly close proposals!

Hint: A famous physicist solved the answer to this problem...
Dec 8 2009 9:16PM
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t-roy
Posts: 4041 - Karma: 52
hold your hands out in front of you with your palms towards your face and thumbs extended. use the hand that looks like an L to shake hands.


Dec 8 2009 9:24PM
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thelizards
Posts: 4042 - Karma: 43
kill them?
Dec 8 2009 9:26PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
i'm having trouble understanding the situation, do you need to explain the concept of left vs right or do you need to see if the alien concept of left is the same as our concept of left?

I had an idea for the latter,

tell them to construct a table with the values 1 and 2 on top and 3 and 4 on the bottom, the even numbers in a column together, likewise with the odds.

then you could ask them to give you the value of the sum for what they consider to be the left side. if it is 4 then you are safe, if it is 6 then gtfo.

the only problem i see is if we're concerned about the aliens being antimatter based life forms, with their left being our right, then how does that effect maths... does our plus become their minus? i suppose we could make it simpler by just saying that if the number doesn't equal 4 then they are not safe to make contact with.

Dec 8 2009 10:26PM
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dwhite
Posts: 1499 - Karma: 32
Rowen, this is why you are my favorite.
Dec 8 2009 10:56PM
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tuna.
Posts: 2627 - Karma: 111

this is exactly like the whole "colors" controversy. you are simply told the names of colors, or in this case, directions, and the only way to reference them is how they were developed into your mind through childhood learnings.

Dec 8 2009 11:04PM
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Phil.T
Posts: 241 - Karma: 62
ask if they wanna smoke a joint
Dec 8 2009 11:16PM
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MCIRONCOCK
Posts: 3094 - Karma: 30
My brain is melting...

Is this cheating? When you go to shake hands, hold out your right hand and gesture to their's. Assuming they're not anti-matter beings, starfish, or flying spaghetti monsters.
Dec 9 2009 1:04AM
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anxju
Posts: 9371 - Karma: 61
if a person was in a dark room, could you explain colors to them either? ive always though if what i perceive as blue is the same as you perceive or what jimmy or tony toughnuts perceives. such a weird idea
Dec 9 2009 1:14AM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
rowen how high were you when you posted this?
Dec 9 2009 1:18AM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
Dude I always think of that shit... and I hardly ever smoke. Like what if my perception of blue, everyone else sees as red, but since I recognize that color by that name, nobody knows. So other people could see the sky as red. I know it isn't so, but it is still weird to think about if it were
Dec 9 2009 1:36AM
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mmckechnie
Posts: 1483 - Karma: 29
Hopefully they know trigonometry.  If this is the case, have them break out the unit circle.  0 radians is right and pi radians is left.  Even simpler, have them make a number line.  Numbers that are negative are left of 0, numbers that are positive are right of zero.
Dec 9 2009 1:39AM
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ShoulderSurfer
Posts: 456 - Karma: 12
Rich Feynman.

From his diagrams of a small number of particles interacting in spacetime, Feynman could then model all of physics in terms of those particles' spins and the range of coupling of the fundamental forces.

I read his semi-autobiographical book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! last year.
Dec 9 2009 1:43AM
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ShoulderSurfer
Posts: 456 - Karma: 12
Do I win a e-cookie?
Dec 9 2009 1:44AM
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I_Am_Mod
Posts: 13214 - Karma: 3,753
haha, where did you get these facts ?! :)
Dec 9 2009 2:06AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Not the concept of left versus right, more of if we could match up our right and left to their right and left. To do this though, we have to say, "Right, as in the direction this other thing in the universe ALWAYS goes"
Dec 9 2009 5:26AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
You win a e-cookie!

The full explanation and the correct situation that always provides us an extradimensional aliens with a 'left' and 'right' standard as defined as "The handedness [clockwise or counterclockwise, aka, left/right] of the lightest particle released in a beta decay (an antineutrino).

So a alien made out of ordinary matter would be able to match our right and left with his right and left.

However. An alien made of antimatter somehow getting our radio message would have this all flipped, as he would have observed in his antimatter world the lightest particle spinning the other direction (as its a neutrino in an antimatter universe - remember, there is no real distinction between antimatter and matter, an alien in an antimatter universe to us would see our universe an antimatter universe). Thus, he would extend his left hand at the greeting. All the more reason to be careful of anyone who offers their other hand in greeting, it could be an alien from another dimension.

And as previously explained, an alien in another universe that was mirror imaged and both made of antimatter would extend their right hand... and you would still be destroyed should you touch it. However, we can be 75% sure at least that any extradimensional travelers we meet we meet and make contact with will give us some warning signs of their orgins just from a simple offer of handshake.
Dec 9 2009 5:45AM
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TheButterHashira
Posts: 9691 - Karma: 1,702
Heres a wiki article on the plaques that adorned the voyager space probes. They weren't necessarily a serious attempt at having something to make contact with aliens with, but I think its interesting none the less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque
Dec 9 2009 6:25AM
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