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Shootings at the Canal

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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
Turn on CNN right now and watch this shit, I'll break down the basic gist of it for you.


A group of soldiers in Baghdad were investigating a house after a firefight. They found a small cache of weapons in the house, sniper rifles, machine guns, ammo, and night vision goggles. They take four Iraqis from house into a Bradley armored vehicle to taken back to the base to be charged for weapons possession and terrorist activity. The leader of the squad started saying that all that would happen is that these guys would be put back on the streets in a couple of weeks, and they needed to be "taken care of." In doing so they took them down to a canal, and shot all four of the Iraqis in the back of the head while they were tied up and blind folded.

The fact that there is an actual investigation into if these guys are hero's is fucking mind boggling. Has ANYONE ever payed attention to the Geneva conventions? Like when has it gotten acceptable in this country to shoot people without any application of the law?

Just a note: If you can't use the "Hey man, you don't know what war is like" argument on me if you haven't actually experienced war, cause in fact, you don't know what it's like.


Nov 22 2009 8:22PM
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2_fadez
Posts: 7780 - Karma: 4,183
the stuff they had was obviously from dead Americans. you can't just get sniper rifles and night vision goggles in the streets of baghdad, they had to have been looted off dead American bodies. i'm not gonna say whether it was right or wrong what they did, but that was probably a part of the story left off
Nov 22 2009 8:36PM
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Jib-Ninja
Posts: 2819 - Karma: 20
your actually siding with the people attempting to kill our troops? Fuck you peice of shit!
Nov 22 2009 8:36PM
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freezed
Posts: 12973 - Karma: 500
i hate the world
Nov 22 2009 8:37PM
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Tinga
Posts: 11349 - Karma: 2,333
ima guess he is siding with basic rights of humanity.......
Nov 22 2009 8:40PM
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doublexl
Posts: 8407 - Karma: 27
But dude, we're America. We're helping them so we don't need to follow "rules".
Nov 22 2009 8:41PM
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shibby
Posts: 7088 - Karma: -19
You're a fucking idiot.
Nov 22 2009 8:43PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
most people on NS don't understand basic principles of justice and democracy, and why it is necessary for these principles to apply to all people, as such trying to say why what these guys did was wrong would be futile
Nov 22 2009 8:45PM
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bryant
Posts: 273 - Karma: 31
i hate to be that guy, but, you probably don't know what the whole story is and no one should make judgements until they do know the whole story. and as far as this thread goes its stupid because media can turn any situation into a big deal.
Nov 22 2009 8:47PM
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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
That's not an excuse, you don't know the kind of disgusting things you can do when you use that logic as your means for justice. The "do what you need to do" idea will always end poorly. You only do that when you absolutely have no other choice other than death, and this was nothing near that kind of circumstance.
Nov 22 2009 8:49PM
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Tinga
Posts: 11349 - Karma: 2,333
the truth. however i was commenting on what was in my quote via how i thought the op was thinking.
Nov 22 2009 8:50PM
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hey-dude-its-me
Posts: 4238 - Karma: 412
who the fuck cares about the enemy
Nov 22 2009 8:50PM
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bryant
Posts: 273 - Karma: 31
my fault. sorry.
Nov 22 2009 8:52PM
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skiierman
Posts: 28699 - Karma: -5,563
i bet you anything that if you where in war yourself, you'd be struggling to show those guys any compassion. stop being a little bitch and hating our troops because of the poor decisions of a few. fuck off. id support them anytime over the whining pussies too scared to be in their places.
Nov 22 2009 8:53PM
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Moisty_Goat
Posts: 601 - Karma: 31
I think it's similar to a family of a rape/murder victim taking matters into there own hands and delivering vigilante justice. Yes it's wrong but while I may not think it was right I understand why they did it
Nov 22 2009 8:54PM
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ksnow
Posts: 313 - Karma: 125
Were they Blackwater Worldwide soldiers?
Nov 22 2009 8:55PM
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Smuffy
Posts: 4686 - Karma: 3,408
hard to say without the full story, but really, is death really necessary? especially without a full investigation.
Nov 22 2009 8:56PM
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Owen.
Posts: 1134 - Karma: 13
Who fucking cares? So some US troops decided to knock off a handful of guys who had a weapons cache that they clearly could have used, and probably were going to use, instead of letting them back on the streets in a few days so they could kill soldiers. You DO know that the justice system is perverted in so many ways to respect the rights of the few people it could slight, right? That even though there are some people in prison who have been wrongfully convicted there are more people who had the charges dropped through some loophole, even though they were clearly guilty? That murderers who were clearly guilty are walking free because there wasn't enough solid "evidence" to put them away?

Go fuck yourself if you don't think these guys saved some lucky troops ass by killing those would-be murderers
Nov 22 2009 8:59PM
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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
I am from Bosnia, I was born in Sarajevo and was actually there for a year of the seige. My father fought in the war for a year, and almost all of the male members of the family fought to protect Sarajevo. If you know anything about that war, you probably know that I know a thing or two about war crimes and genocide.

Serbs and Croats were my neighbors and friends and during the war became my enemies who were throwing grenades at my apartment building and shooting at women and children in the streets. My father carried dead children that snipers shot on their way back from school, he had more reason than anyone to hate Serbs and kill them without remorse, but you know what my father taught me? Never, ever, be like those fucking monsters.

I am not hating on troops, I am hating on the idea that this is actually considered a question of if they are hero's or not. Just the fucking mention of that is amazing to me, of course they are monsters.
Nov 22 2009 9:00PM
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wskibum176
Posts: 1536 - Karma: 13
dear lord.... security contractors are usually not given the responsibility of going door to door looking for weapons. They're in charge of protecting convoys and political officials. Even if they were security contractors, Blackwater is on of dozens of security contracting companies with government contracts working in the middle east. Just because something happened years ago with their company does not mean they are automatically the scapegoat for every harsh reality of war that is published to the general public. In all honesty, im not surprised this doesnt happen more often...and thats going both ways. There's a reason the general public is shielded from the harsh reality of war
Nov 22 2009 9:04PM
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hey-dude-its-me
Posts: 4238 - Karma: 412
that almost makes sense, but it doesn't, and not because of the grammatical error
Nov 22 2009 9:05PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
what it comes down to is this:

it's a war. people are going to die.

and in this war, it's difficult to identify enemy combatants. In this case, they found some men with weapons that they could not have acquired without killing/looting from dead americans, which is about as close to you'll get as clearly identifying the enemy.

I'd rather read about 4 dead iraqis who clearly had no good intentions than read about any number of dead americans who were killed by iraqis using stolen american equipment.
Nov 22 2009 9:30PM
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gmack24
Posts: 4636 - Karma: 31
Look at it this way. If they captured any one of you in this thread, they would cut your head off on video. Sorry for being gruesome but it's a reality and we are dealing with the most uncivilized individuals on the planet. These people do not deserve rights because as far as I am concerned they are not humans. They got what they deserved.
Nov 22 2009 9:38PM
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JaphyRyder
Posts: 1766 - Karma: 113
I get the feeling that people in this thread believe that because we are from America, then American troops have more right to life than an Iraqi soldier. Do you actually think a person is worth more because they are American?

I say fuck that. We are so brutal and arrogant, which is why we don't get along with so many countries.
Nov 22 2009 9:38PM
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gmack24
Posts: 4636 - Karma: 31
And you are brutally ignorant. Americans don't bury unfaithful women in the ground with only their heads exposed and stone them to death.

Fuck you.
Nov 22 2009 9:40PM
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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
Because all Iraqis do this? You are really trying to generalize such a brutal act?
Nov 22 2009 9:42PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
the only iraqi soldiers that exist fight alongside american troops.

we are NOT fighting the iraqi army over there.
Nov 22 2009 9:42PM
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Moisty_Goat
Posts: 601 - Karma: 31
The more I thought about it the more I wanted to say something like this but you worded it perfectly.
Nov 22 2009 9:42PM
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deleted5
Posts: 14507 - Karma: 13,507
Nov 22 2009 9:44PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
they deserved a right to trial. 

it would have been cut and dry if they found the weapons in their house, most likely with their prints on it.
and yes you can find sniper rifles in iraq (soviet made dragunovs)

stuff like that doesn't win hearts and minds and only creates further animosity.
 
insurgents are a problem the americans created and they have to live with it. 



Nov 22 2009 9:49PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
Hey DUMBASS! The Geneva Convention does not apply to people not affilitated with a military..like Al Qaeda. Sure it sucks that they smoked em, but don't go crying "OH THE GENEVA CONVENTION! THE HUMANITY!!!!"
Nov 22 2009 9:52PM
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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
If you take a terrorist as a prisoner, and given that we are at war with them, they become a prisoner of war and receive these rights under the Geneva Conventions.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions:

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed 'hors de combat' by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) taking of hostages;

(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.
Nov 22 2009 10:04PM
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geteducated
Posts: 6410 - Karma: 86
there are also rules of engagement.

allowing soldiers to become judge, jury, and executioner would set a grim precedent in iraq
Nov 22 2009 10:09PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
I wouldn't call them prisoners so much as detainees. I really don't ever hear stories of Al Qaeda taking American soldiers hostage and treating them well, they usually end up cutting off their heads and pouring acid on their feet and stuff. Though I do think that maybe this should have been handled with a little more discretion..I think it was justified.
Nov 22 2009 10:19PM
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gnarshrelpt
Posts: 572 - Karma: 15
well thats how they basically did it in iraq before the us went in so it shouldn't be such a big deal to the people over there. and the americans did it cause i guess they were loosing faith in the justice system
Nov 22 2009 10:24PM
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MCIRONCOCK
Posts: 3094 - Karma: 30
Although they were not acting lawfully, i believe that there was some merit to their decisions.  From what i've heard, when U.S. soldiers take insurgents into custody, 95% of the time they're back out on the streets within a few weeks, with no consequences, because they can't prove it was those people who shot at them.  Soldiers inevitably are fighting the same enemy multiple times, losing men to an enemy they can't even prosecute.  These soldiers caught the guys with a weapon cache, and made the connection that these guys would use them to harm U.S. troops. After all, if they meant no harm, why would they not just turn the weapons in? Or at least not hang around with them.  The fact of the matter is that the soldiers made a moral decision that might not legally be their right, but as far as i'm concerned they know what's in their best interest better than any of us.
Nov 22 2009 10:26PM
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pmw
Posts: 5760 - Karma: 831
im not saying that i am extremely sorry they did it, but they should be undoubtedly punished to the full extent of the law. which sadly probably wont be much
Nov 22 2009 10:31PM
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Tinga
Posts: 11349 - Karma: 2,333
so did they seize the weapons?
Nov 22 2009 10:33PM
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hey-dude-its-me
Posts: 4238 - Karma: 412
Yea they do, and not because they're American. It's because they're the most powerful fighting force in the world. If Iraqis are stupid enough to fight them then they're pretty much asking to be killed and nobody should care when they're obliged.
Nov 22 2009 10:37PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
Your last line caught be by suprise as I was exiting this thread. What you stated is something called Argumentum Ad Hominem. The person before the argument, basically the pot calling the kettle black bit. Knowing this now, I'm going to have to go and dismiss everything you just said. Sorry.
Nov 22 2009 10:45PM
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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
Well, I said it as not really an argument but more of a thing to those people who actually say "hey man, you don't know what war is like" cause the people who say that usually have no idea what war is like.
Nov 22 2009 11:01PM
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SteezyasPie
Posts: 1160 - Karma: 15
I don't think anyone thinks executing enemy combatants is "heroic", but it most certainly doesn't doesn't make them "monsters" either. That's what has to happen, or else they would be back fighting US troops within a few days to a few weeks. You cannot say, honestly, that you would rather let your enemies go rather than kill them when you know they will just fight you again. That's just plain stupid.

(Note the emphasis on the word "know", meaning that you have proof or substantial evidence that they have fought against you, or plan to; ie. finding stockpiles of military grade weaponry and tools of war such as, but not limited to: NVGs, high power rifles, machine guns, explosives, etc.)
Nov 22 2009 11:03PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
When they say 'hey man, you don't know what war is like' that would be an argument. The level of intelligence on NS is ASTOUNDING!
Nov 22 2009 11:04PM
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Tinga
Posts: 11349 - Karma: 2,333
i don't think that is an accurate representation of this situation.
Nov 22 2009 11:07PM
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Dr.Dank
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 51
yup.
Nov 22 2009 11:08PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
Well I do, and I signed the declaration of independence. So fuck you!
Nov 22 2009 11:08PM
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SteezyasPie
Posts: 1160 - Karma: 15
I was simply responding to his claims that people were saying these guys are heroes,and his statement that they were "monsters".
Nov 22 2009 11:11PM
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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
They didn't have to let them go, they could of taken them to base and put them on trial like they were supposed to. Not take them out to the side of a canal and shoot them like animals.

The problem here is the military justice system within Iraq, not the actual soldiers. They are monsters for following the group enough to murder 4 handcuffed and blindfolded men, no matter what they did previously, they don't deserve that. If that was true I would be running around killing Serbians at fucking will.

The system in which there are arrested and tried needs to be changed drastically, but that is no excuse to shoot men like pigs.
Nov 22 2009 11:16PM
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WikiWiki
Posts: 5584 - Karma: 426
fuck that if that true- then the Americans deserve the full penalty of the law- if its bullshit then no- but none can be the judge jury and executioner- those guys will go down for a long time if thats true
Nov 22 2009 11:24PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
In a perfect world, yeah that would happen..but it doesn't. Sure it sucks that they had to do what they did, but it's an acceptable situation. They are obviously privy to information about the justice system in Iraq you are not, and that is why they did what they did. This isn't the French Foreign Legion we're talking about here, this is the American Army. They're not a bunch of criminal scumbags who joined so they could "KILL THE DAMN RAGHEADS!! RAH RAH RAH!!" In actuality 9/10 of American soldiers are intelligent, courteous and generally nice people. They did what had to be done, they made a tough decision when the system was failing and for that I applaud them.
Nov 22 2009 11:28PM
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Waffle11
Posts: 481 - Karma: 16
I think those soldiers have been watching too much dexter.
Nov 22 2009 11:31PM
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