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Issues of debate that will NEVER be solved

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PagesHouse
Posts: 6024 - Karma: 104
Does this frustrate anyone else? I'm talking about the topics that have been argued, fought over, debated, discussed, preached, and everything else and yet we still have no answer.... because there is no right answer.... but we continue to violently and offensively argue these issues to no end.

Of course I, and everyone else in the world, has their own views and opinions which all deserve the time of day. I still get incredibly fired up when I read threads on topics like abortion, politics, health care reform, affirmative action, environmentalism, vegetarians, etc. And yes, these are some of the most pertinent issues effecting us today. But does it frustrate any of you to no end that we continue to degrade and verbally abuse each other over questions with no answer?
Nov 14 2009 12:42PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Keith Olbermann annual estimated salary- $7.5 million

Glenn Beck annual salary- $18 million

Rush Limbaugh annual salary- $28 million

Nov 14 2009 12:47PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Oh and super frustrating. Especially with someone who is convinced of something and has no formal background in what they are arguing. They just hear it through the grapevine or their weekly chicken wing and Monday night football discussions.
Nov 14 2009 12:49PM
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PagesHouse
Posts: 6024 - Karma: 104
So sad and so true. Hah... gotta love media.
Nov 14 2009 12:49PM
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wh@t
Posts: 6204 - Karma: 51
modern tv news isnt news. its entertainment. flashy show trailers and scare tactics are employed to keep the audience captivated. a lot like hm, i dunno, tv shows?
Nov 14 2009 12:52PM
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FUUUCK
Posts: 18426 - Karma: 4,888
holy shit! looks like playing the partisan game gets you paid.
Nov 14 2009 12:53PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
Pretty sure Rush has about a billion and half more listeners than Olberman could ever hope to get watching his pompous ass spew drivel.


Nov 14 2009 12:58PM
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00000000
Posts: 11075 - Karma: 82,508
Just because people don't agree on a topic doesn't mean there is no right answer.
Nov 14 2009 1:09PM
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TheButterHashira
Posts: 9691 - Karma: 1,702
Why can't we just debate epistemology or something? I cut you up with occams razor.
Nov 14 2009 1:14PM
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PagesHouse
Posts: 6024 - Karma: 104
How is there a right answer to issues of moral debate? You can't tell someone is wrong for having their own set of morals to live by.

And how is there a correct answer to political issues, such as health reform? Everyone thinks their way is the right way.

The human ability to rationalize is a blessing and a curse.
Nov 14 2009 1:17PM
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00000000
Posts: 11075 - Karma: 82,508
"Just because people don't agree on a topic doesn't mean there is no right answer."
 
Please re-read what I wrote. Think. Think some more. Then take the time to write a response. Re-read that response. Post it.

And yes, you can definitely tell someone they are wrong for having their own set of morals to live by. Are you actually that thick? I'm sure most people will agree that Hitler's moral beliefs were wrong, and he was wrong to live by those beliefs.

Just because someone "thinks" it does not mean it was right. Everyone used to think the Earth was flat, did that make them right?

Nov 14 2009 5:27PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
l2nbasicphiliosophy.

morality is not subjective.
Nov 14 2009 5:28PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
I will throw up a Millian harm principle and say you are infringing upon my safety and rights if you tell me my argument is too complicated!

(I know that ockham's razor doesn't really relate to ethics)
Nov 14 2009 5:33PM
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PagesHouse
Posts: 6024 - Karma: 104
Alright, hotshot, I was referring to the 'normal' spectrum of people and not extremists, such as Hitler. I'm also referring to topics such as abortion... I have a hard time thinking we will be able to scientifically prove whether abortion should be legal or not in the future and thus am frustrated by the endless debates which continuously run in circles. That's just me, though.

Really Random Sidenote: You can mathematically prove that 1 is equal to 0, but does that make it true?

Have a beautiful day.
Nov 14 2009 5:35PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
You can argue all day that god does or doesn't exist but does that make it true? No because it is unfalsifiable.

I don't know if an issue like abortion is unfalsifiable but really, that debate comes down to whether or not you believe a fetus is a human or just an unhatched vertebrae

Nov 14 2009 5:39PM
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00000000
Posts: 11075 - Karma: 82,508
Why would you have to scientifically prove whether it is legal or not? And since when does legality have anything to do with morals? That logic makes no sense in my opinion.

Abortion is an ethical question, not one of science, and definitely not one of law.
Nov 14 2009 5:40PM
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Steezius_Maximus
Posts: 1152 - Karma: 22
healthcare...
Nov 14 2009 5:42PM
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PagesHouse
Posts: 6024 - Karma: 104
This is actually what I'm saying. People argue ALL DAY about these issues and there is never going to be a final answer where people are satisfied. Neither side is right or knows the truth.... thus its frustrating... hence thread made.
Nov 14 2009 5:47PM
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00000000
Posts: 11075 - Karma: 82,508
You are right to a certain extent...

Just because people are not satisfied and they still debate, doesn't mean there is not a right answer.

The key is that many people are ignorant, stubborn or just plain stupid.

Nov 14 2009 5:50PM
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PagesHouse
Posts: 6024 - Karma: 104
Or are jerks who yell at someone who's high and is just looking for some friendly discussion. Hah. Just kidding, but seriously... my opinion is right and all of you are 100% wrong.
Nov 14 2009 5:57PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
Take this analogy. I like pizza with onions, mushrooms and black olives. My friend likes pizza with just pepperoni. We argue over which pizza is better. Neither of us is right but we both think the other is wrong

People opposed to abortion rights think that people pro abortion rights are wrong and visa versa. Like MFK said, it isn't an arguement of science but of morals. Peoples morals clash
Nov 14 2009 5:59PM
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ShoulderSurfer
Posts: 456 - Karma: 12
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing, for when I don't know what justice is, I'll hardly know whether it is a kind of virtue or not, or whether a person who has it is happy or unhappy." --Socrates
Nov 14 2009 6:00PM
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kickerlicker
Posts: 820 - Karma: 11
Are you serious? Legality and Morals go hand in hand. Our society has certain values aka morals that we all stand by. One of these is that we cherish life, hence murder and euthanasia are illegal. When it comes down to it these laws (and all laws) are just a form social engineering. They instill these 'morals' in everyone bring repurcussions for those who do not follow them. So yeah legality has a lot to do with morals
Nov 14 2009 6:19PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
You are wrong.

Morality is objective and factual.
People can argue all day about anything, but that doesnt mean that neither side is right or wrong.


Take abortion... people think its wrong (generally) because they consider the baby to be alive when its in the womb, obviously there is a point where it is not alive, as it doesnt have a heart/brain/consciousness etc. therefore, you just need to figure out when the fetus becomes conscious, and then you know whether abortion is right or wrong... (just an example there obviously its more complicated.)


Another example, a fucking 3 year old, or a dog, or a monkey or whatever has basic moral values. they know what is right and wrong because it is necessary to have morals to survive. Everything is objective when it comes to morality, some things are just more complicated than others.
Nov 14 2009 6:53PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
Once again, wrong.

People used to argue all the time about womens/black/gay rights etc. one side thought the other was wrong and vice versa.
This doesnt mean there isnt a right or wrong in a situation.
Nov 14 2009 6:55PM
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TechnoPotamus
Posts: 11626 - Karma: 3,522
...this thread is proving to be a point of debate in itself that cannot be agreed upon.
Nov 14 2009 7:02PM
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Username_42069
Posts: 1591 - Karma: 15
absolute truth vs. relative truth
Nov 14 2009 7:13PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
no, there is a right answer to all of these debates. People dont need to be bitches to each other, but debate is needed, and there are def. right and wrong solutions to our problems.
Nov 14 2009 7:23PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
People still argue about those things. There is some moonshiner down in bumblefuck Kentucky that still believes blacks are the inferior race. They are wrong by my standards of morals but they think I am equally as wrong.

I am a huge supporter of gay rights and think that it is unethical to not give them equal rights but half the population thinks it is unethical TO give them rights.

Who's to tell what is ethically right or not?

(My pizza analogy sucked)
Nov 14 2009 8:00PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
WHat are you talking about? Did you not read my post?

People argue about these things, but that doesnt mean there isnt an absolute truth. Anyone who isnt a fucking retard knows every human should have equal rights. We just know it because its something we evolved with. If we treated eachother like shit, stole from eachother, killed eachother all the time then humans would be extinct.
Nov 14 2009 8:10PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
You are missing my point. I'll play devils advocate for a second:

Homosexuals are ruining America because God told me so and I believe that God is the most moral being ever

Now, anyone that isn't clinically retarded would know that is failed logic. My point is that peoples morals differ so ethical/moral questions will have different answers

Nov 14 2009 8:15PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
People have different morals, but that doesnt mean that there isnt one set of morals that is correct.

We can all agree that killing and raping children is wrong. if someone does it and thinks its right, that doesnt make it any less wrong.
Nov 14 2009 8:17PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
Very true. By a reasonable man's standard, killing and raping children is very wrong

People will always think that other people with different morals are wrong and think that they themselves are always right. Like I said before, who decides who is right and who is wrong?

A conservative advocating against gay rights will say that morally, gays getting married is totally wrong. I think his morals are flawed but who knows? Maybe in the long run I'll be wrong about this issue. I would like to think and hope that I am right

I don't think that anyone will ever know who's morals are correct

Nov 14 2009 8:29PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
But you wont. There are things that are morally wrong and morally right regardless of what someone thinks of it.

For example, the sky is blue... the sky is always blue, even if youre colourblind and it looks green to you. The sky is blue because you can scientifically test the wavelengths of light in the sky and what wavelengths the atmosphere absorbs etc. etc.

The same kinda thing can be done in moral situations. There are some "rules" that if everyone followed them, society would be better off than if nobody followed them. For example, dont steal, dont kill, dont break promises etc. etc.
Obviously there are exceptions to these rules (for example, its ok to kill a guy in self defence or its ok to steal to feed your family if you steal from some really rich guy who it wont affect or whatever else.) however, these exceptions can be explained by other moral rules.

morality is objective. the fact that some people think different things are right/wrong doesnt change that fact.
Nov 14 2009 8:38PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
Your point about the sky being blue is irrelevant. That is a fact that can be proven. Just like a triangle will always have three sides by definition. Morals are not really facts and they can't be proven right or wrong by a reasonable man standard

I'm making the argument that morality is subjective to a reasonable man's standard i.e. killing is wrong in most cases, stealing is wrong, etc.

Ethical issues like doctor assisted suicides are subjective to the opinion holder. There is no real objectively moral answer to that issue. On one side, is it ethical to kill someone if they have a terminal and debilitating disease like Lou Gehrig's or is it unethical because taking away someones life is wrong?
Nov 14 2009 9:01PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
If the person gives consent to end their life and theyre not just a stupid emo bitch, then yes it is ethical.

Morality is not subjective. Some things are just more difficult to see the answer to than others. Read David Gauthier etc.
Nov 14 2009 9:13PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
I agree that it is ethical but many people do not see it as ethical.

We're just going to agree to disagree on morality being subjective or objective. I believe that many things do not have one true answer. To each his own I suppose
Nov 14 2009 9:18PM
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el_chupacabra
Posts: 639 - Karma: 14
So how have you determined what set of morals are in fact the correct ones?
Nov 14 2009 9:30PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
We are pretty much born knowing whats right and wrong. As i said before, a 3 year old has basic good morals, so do apes etc. its caused naturally by evolution.
I personally think that morals are determined sorta with a cross between rule utilitarianism and some other theories presented by david gauthier (who i mentioned in another post i made)... Basically, there is a set of rules that, if everyone follows them, everyone will be happier (obviously there are tricky situations for this, but its not that simple... however, i do believe that most major morality issues have a right and a wrong.)
Nov 14 2009 10:04PM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
I looked into this guy and the basic idea of his philosophy is good. It is very similar to categorical imperative which I agree with

Check out this article
http://www.uctaa.net/articles/reflections/ref01/ref016.html
Nov 14 2009 10:12PM
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PagesHouse
Posts: 6024 - Karma: 104
HAHAHAHA what an ironic thread.
Nov 14 2009 10:43PM
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meggles
Posts: 3156 - Karma: 54
Seriously..
Nov 14 2009 11:33PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
This is more ironic than that song Ironic by Allanis Morisette.
Nov 15 2009 12:40AM
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skier_boy26
Posts: 11295 - Karma: 502
keith olbermann has like 10 views.

beck has like 6 mil listens.

limbaugh has like 20+ million.



not sure where the debate is
Nov 15 2009 12:48AM
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Dr.Dickless
Posts: 2620 - Karma: 1,392
so then everyone doesn't agree that killing and raping children is wrong, if one fucked up guy thinks its moral
Nov 15 2009 12:56AM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
That guy doesn't have a reasonable man's standard. He's kind of the outlier that doesn't get included in the data
Nov 15 2009 1:04AM
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PeteyG
Posts: 2946 - Karma: 49
Are you serious? Follow this to its logical endpoint and nothing is bad. therefore it is not bad to blow up the entire world into oblivion.

There has to be morals if there is to be existence. Funny thing is that the Christian standard for morals is the most used, and everyone ciritiques it from there.
Nov 15 2009 1:15AM
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PeteyG
Posts: 2946 - Karma: 49
it is natural law, the law of God written on everyone's hearts. but the problem of sin causes everyone to disagree with it
Nov 15 2009 1:18AM
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GayWolf420
Posts: 37390 - Karma: 120,126
baggy outerwear vs. tight snowpants
Nov 15 2009 1:22AM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
Are you fucking serious? You had to come in here and ruin a perfectly intelligent debate. I wish you were trolling.

1. The morals laid out in the bible are fucking terrible. Half of the 10 commandments are useless BS like dont work on the sabbath etc.

2. The bible condones rape and slavery.

3. God never said dont rape little kids, dont have slaves, dont treat women as 2nd class citizens... but i'm pretty sure you know its wrong. youre a fucking tool if you think God has anything to do with morals.
Nov 15 2009 1:33AM
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blackoutbill
Posts: 2918 - Karma: 282
I'm with you on this one. The bible can also be used to argue anything so it isn't a very legit source of arguments
Nov 15 2009 1:38AM
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