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Help me pick a car!

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davyjones
Posts: 617 - Karma: 12
Alright im looking to buy a brand new or certified used car. i have a limit of about 25k dollars. im buying this myself because i have a good job and im taking a year off of school to pay this baby off in a year and do some traveling and stuff like that.

now i am having the hardest time trying to pick something so any suggestions and reasons why would be fantastic.

here is a catch though. it has to be an american car company.
Sep 23 2009 8:46PM
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Stuck.in.ohio
Posts: 331 - Karma: 36

Definitely go with a Pontiac G8 Gxp, best american made car IMO, great engine, transmission, everything.

Similar to that but in 2 door would be the Camaro but idk if you'd want that, however if that does interest you I would get the Mustang. A lot of people on this site hate them but the new ones look awesome and are better than the Camaro in everything but a straight line

The chevy cobalt ss is a great car but not that much of a looker and they should be replacing it with another car soon that looks way better

And if you want a Jeep they now make the SRT8 Jeep (I think it's a Liberty) which is stupid fast in a jeep

There may be others but those are what are on the top of my head good luck choosing though, with 25k you will get a great car

Sep 24 2009 9:13PM
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8ONE657
Posts: 3045 - Karma: 209
i'd say an F150, they're so fucking baller and well i love trucks..starts at $21K
but if you want something smaller get the volvo C30, i love love love them..starts at $24K
Sep 24 2009 9:15PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
I mean i try to heel toe a lot, or kinda double clutch without the full on double clutch (double clutching is technically like clutch neutral release, revv shift, right? i just shift but hold the clutch when i revv?), but i can't do it alllll the time. i guess i should start practicing

but i said its not practical because its just a pain in the ass. i mean isnt it just an inconvenience? do all higher end cars require this? (Ferraris, lambos, ect)

Sep 24 2009 9:24PM
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AMD_5
Posts: 745 - Karma: 15
Camaro, do it up
Sep 24 2009 9:29PM
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powday
Posts: 3055 - Karma: 326
so true haha...you even get a badass street bike ready for use whenever.


Sep 24 2009 9:30PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
Why would it be the synchros? when you engage the clutch, then shift into gears that arent spinning, the synchro will bring those gears to the match wheels before the dog teeth lock in with the gear itself.
when you release the clutch and don't revv match, your attaching the non spinning engine to the spinng transmission after the synchros have already done their job and are out of the way. This will cause stress on the engine.

i dont get how this really effect the synchros
Sep 24 2009 9:33PM
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shortdawg
Posts: 1359 - Karma: 19
You're throwing your money away on an American car (rapid depreciation, mechanical problems). Domestic engineering is decades ahead of anything American. If you want bang for your buck get and something that will last you for years on end get a Toyota

thank me later

Sep 24 2009 9:38PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
http://hondaswap.com/general-tech-articles/what-double-clutching-3515/

Right, except that the synchros haven't already done their job. They are changing the gears to match the difference between spinning engine rpm's and the speed your gears are spinning. They take the force of the blow not the gears. So if you haven't rev matched then thats where you get the torque shock.

I don't know if you have to do this in higher performance cars, I am not too good with them. I would imagine they use a different system because of the paddle-shift set up.

And you had the right idea with the double clutch. The heel-toe allows you to rev match without double clutching and is really easiest to do if you have adjustable pedals. You try and align the brake and the gas and then turn your foot diagonally as you brake. As you push in the clutch and are braking, you are also increasing the rpm's of the engine by hitting the gas at the same time. If you get good enough at it you can rev match really well, you complete your shift, let off the brake and clutch and away you go. This technique is used much more for downshifting in to turns than anything else.
Sep 24 2009 10:07PM
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Inbred_Redneck
Posts: 2776 - Karma: 28
The same thing could be said about other foreign cars, so please shut the hell up about domestic cars being unreliable, or dont post anything at all. He obviously wants a domestic car, simple as that.
Sep 24 2009 10:21PM
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comeatmebro
Posts: 10720 - Karma: 66
it's honestly not hard to do at all once you get the hang of it. most people rev match when going into corners and what not. but basically it's no inconvenience at all if you're used to doing it.
Sep 24 2009 10:25PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
no no, the synchros only work when your shifting, and when your shifting, your foot is on the clutch and the engine is not attached to the transmission. so the sychro is matching the gear with the wheels only.

the point of a true double clutch (shift into neutral, then shift into gear) is that you dont have synchros. You need to shift into neutral so that the engine IS connected to the transmission, then you rev to match the gear with the dog teeth of the collar (attached to the wheels), then shift into gear while the gear and collar are spinning in unison

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission1.htm
read through that. it will really enlighten you. I learned stick so much quicker because i actually understood what i was doing because i read all this



Sep 24 2009 10:27PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Did you read the link that I showed you? There are two halves to the tranny essentially. So when you don't revmatch, the engine half has to correctly align with the gear half. The synchros have to do the work to get this done. If you double clutch, you match the engine half to the gear half, thus the synchros don't have to do the work to get it to match.
Sep 24 2009 10:35PM
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davyjones
Posts: 617 - Karma: 12
i think i am gonna get an f150 lariat used. 4 door
Sep 24 2009 10:37PM
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elPadrino
Posts: 52 - Karma: 14
http://www.vivagoal.com/images/wallpapers/audi-r8-3.jpg

get this.

Sep 24 2009 10:38PM
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hey_dude_its_me
Posts: 1403 - Karma: 32
nah don't get this, its been out for long enough that a re-designed version should be coming out pretty soon, nothing worse than buying a new car right before the new generation of the same model comes out....
Sep 24 2009 10:40PM
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A.0.spin
Posts: 472 - Karma: 186
dont get a c30 its nice but a rip volvo's arn't made the way the used to be... get a 09 wrx at the beginning of 2010


will be cheap and baller
Sep 24 2009 10:43PM
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shortdawg
Posts: 1359 - Karma: 19
shit I meant to say foreign
Sep 24 2009 10:44PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
no i read it, but its basically saying what im saying. When you engage the clutch, the gears stop moving, so when you the shift, the non moving gears have to be synchronized with the moving wheels. Now if you shift into neutral and rev, your giving the gears a running start and making the synchro do less work

BUT, it should be the same with any car. Lambo, STi, toyota carola, that will happen. you shouldnt be blowing out your synchros more regularly in an STi than a carola

but your saying when you release the clutch and you dont rev match, your putting stress on the synchros. that isnt true. By the time you release the clutch, your gear and collar are already locked up by the dog teeth and the synchros have done their job. If they arent locked up by the dog teeth, then your not in gear.
Sep 24 2009 10:44PM
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8ONE657
Posts: 3045 - Karma: 209
wooooo! come pick me up!
Sep 24 2009 10:45PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Ya I made that confusing and said it wrong. Either way though, the synchros are still responsible for bringing both halves in to alignment are matching the rpms of the gears, thus they take the force if the revs aren't matched.

The reason a STi can blow out synchros a lot faster than say a carola is because of design and because of torque.
Sep 24 2009 10:49PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
no, the synchro is not for both halves. it is strictly for the wheel half and the middle, once the synchro does its job, THEN you release the clutch.

There is a difference between double clutching and revv matching. you double clutch on a car without synchros or to make the synchros job easier. THEN, once your in gear and the synchros did their job, you rev match the engine to match to transmission so that when the spinning transmission attaches to the engine, the car doesnt jerk but instead goes smoothly.

its really 4 parts. engine, clutch, transmission, wheels. it all starts from the back up.
Sep 24 2009 10:56PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
When you are double clutching you rev match before the car is in gear to get the transmission and the engine spinning at the same speeds, so that when the synchros attach to the gears everything is already at speed so there is no torque on the synchros. Double clutching requires rev matching, they aren't two different concepts. Reread those links and it should make more sense.
Sep 24 2009 11:03PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
nooooooo, why do you think you put the car in neutral when you double clutch but you can heel toe when your revv matching?
they are two different thigns!!!!!111one111!!!

you double clutch to match you synchro and wheels
THEN you rev match to match your engine to the transmission

big difference man. there is usually two revvs involved in double clutching. the rev to match the sychro and gear, then the rev to match the engine to the transmission
Sep 24 2009 11:06PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
No there is only one rev match in double clutching. You have it confused. You don't rev match twice.

"How do I double clutch? I never thought you'd ask.

1. Push clutch pedal down
2. Shift to neutral
3. Lift clutch pedal up
4. "Blip" throttle to raise engine speed, "engine half" transmission speed
5. Push clutch pedal down
6. Shift into lower gear
7. Lift clutch pedal up

That's it.

If you did it right, you "blipped" the throttle just the right amount so your engine is at the exact right rev level to match up for the lower gear. Your synchros have less work to do (or none), so your transition to the lower gear is smoother, you effect less wear on the synchros (they don't have to work to match gear speed between the two "halves", you did that), and you effect less wear on the engine as well.

Someone asked me why you have to let the clutch back out before you "blip" the throttle, and here is the reason. The goal of blipping/tapping the throttle is to raise the rotational speed of the "engine half" of your transmission- your engine speed going up is what causes this to happen. Making your engine rev faster is just the way you effect the rise in transmission speed (in the "engine half")... if you could make the transmission rev faster on the "engine half" without revving the engine, that would theoretically work as well. If you rev the engine while the clutch is open (pedal down), then you're just raising the rotational speed of the engine, and not the "engine half" of the transmission. Just opening the clutch (pedal down) and revving the engine to where it needs to be, then shifting and closing the clutch (pedal up) isn't double clutching- but it still helps to reduce wear on your engine and transmission. Why? Your synchros still have to work to match the transmission speeds, but they don't have to work to rev the engine up to where it's supposed to be. On the engine side, your engine isn't being 'forced' to run at a higher rev as soon as you let the clutch out, so its wear is reduced as well."

The second half explains why heel-toe works.
Sep 24 2009 11:11PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
yes, the whole point of everything said there is to ease the work of the synchro
the point is shift into neutral and release the clutch. now, when you rev, the engine will spin the gears. so now when you shift into, lets say 4th, but your foots still on the clutch, the gear is spinning and the synchro doesnt have to synch, or do as much work to synch
now, the next thing to do is release the clutch, when you release the clutch, you want to rev again so that the engine is synchronize with the transmission (the gears which are now spinning because they are attached to the wheels) so that its smooth when the clutch connects.


Sep 24 2009 11:19PM
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selkirks
Posts: 1978 - Karma: 59
Not all domestic cars are unreliable. That's not what he's saying. But the fact is that on average, foreign car companies produce cars that have better fuel efficiency, more reliability, better resale value, etc., than their American counterparts.

Saying that doesn't mean you're anti-American either. I will say this, the American companies (specifically Ford) are doing a great job of catching up to foreign competitors.

OP: Now I'm done; get back to making a decision on your American car. Unfortunately I can't help you there.
Sep 24 2009 11:27PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Well of course you are giving it gas as you release the clutch after the neutral rev match... but that isn't considered a rev match.

Anyways I know what I am talking about and I think we are both just explaining the same thing in two semi-different ways. I'm done with this for now. The main point was that if you downshift on a STi without rev matching you do damage to the tranny because of the engine torque that isn't there with something like a civic.

Back to my quantum mechanics homework. /shudder
Sep 24 2009 11:28PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
downshifting or even upshifting will only cause damage to the engine or the transmission as a whole. not the synchros.

i would love to draw this out for you.
Sep 24 2009 11:36PM
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Funnel
Posts: 7815 - Karma: 1,531
Looks like a sweet car.  That test track is South of Mammoth out in the mountains around Mojave.  I see test cars out there all the time. 

To the OG, have fun with your American car.  When we had a Suburban it was in the shop at least once every two months.  Luckily it was under warranty, otherwise we would have a shitload less money now.  Never again will we buy another American car and after they robbed us of those billions of dollars, I am convinced that I will never buy an American car.  Go ahead and get it so you don't get shit, but when your bank account is empty, and insurance is nice and high, you will be regretting it.
Sep 24 2009 11:40PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Nah man thats not entirely true. Go do some more looking around. Yes you can damage all the parts, but you will be doing proportionally more to the synchros cause of their job. Anyway, I'm done with this. Good discussion.
Sep 24 2009 11:40PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
i mean mainly the engine and tranny
but when the stick is in first gear, the sychro is no longer doing anything what so ever, its only going from neutral to first that the synchro does anything. after that, any torque or pressure would be put on the dog teeth of the collar attached to the gear

it was a good discussion. im right though ;)
Sep 24 2009 11:43PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
http://members.cox.net/elans4/Transmission.htm

There is a better description of the synchros imo. You can see how them moving in to place and bringing the gears to speed is how you can get the torque shock. Look up transmission problems on performance cars, 75% of the time it is clutch or synchro related, you have to really try hard to mess up a gear.
Sep 24 2009 11:46PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
those are MAD old synchros!!!!
bro, that one went in, then caught on some piece of metal and thats why there was a huge torque shock

synchros today are more like cones, they dont catch any metal, as the cone goes in, it touches the gear and they rub so it starts moving the gear and eventually up to the speed that the synchro is moving, and at that point, the dog teeth catch and the synchro has done its job

heres a good picture of new synchros

Click for larger image
Sep 24 2009 11:57PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Dude its the same principle. Yes I know those pics are old but it is still the same concept. Here is another article:

"The synchronizer[2] has to change the momentum of the entire input shaft and clutch disk. Additionally, it can be abused by exposure to the momentum and power of the engine itself, which is what happens when attempts are made to select a gear without fully disengaging the clutch. This causes extra wear on the rings and sleeves, reducing their service life. When an experimenting driver tries to "match the revs" on a synchronized transmission and force it into gear without using the clutch, the synchronizer will make up for any discrepancy in RPM. The success in engaging the gear without clutching can deceive the driver into thinking that the RPM of the layshaft and transmission were actually exactly matched. Nevertheless, approximate "rev-matching" with clutching can decrease the general delta between layshaft and transmission and decrease synchro wear."

From wikipedia. Its always the synchros that are taking the torque, not the gears, which is why synchros go bad.
Sep 25 2009 12:03AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
i assume that you think when you car jerks from down shifting or something, the jerk is being transferred to the synchro. that is where you are wrong.
the sychro does eventually wear because its used so often, but it is never stressed from the jerk of downshifting. just, over time, it wears out from the repeated use.
yes, that article is correct, but it is not saying the same thing that you are saying
Sep 25 2009 12:12AM
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PaleCelery
Posts: 7228 - Karma: 609
LOOK WHAT THIS THREAD HAS BECOME!
Sep 25 2009 12:12AM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
An intelligent discussion instead of retarded bullshit? You say that like its a bad thing...
Sep 25 2009 12:17AM
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PaleCelery
Posts: 7228 - Karma: 609
fair enough
Sep 25 2009 12:34AM
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localonvolkls
Posts: 448 - Karma: 90
you guys its clear that you don't work on cars, what are you trying to prove?
Sep 25 2009 9:56AM
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localonvolkls
Posts: 448 - Karma: 90
your full of it. Yes your right about torque being the main factor of destruction but subarus are a bitch, they loose compression faster than any other four cylinder on the market. They have two head gaskets which makes it even more of a bitch and they vibrate everything like crazy. You think your a badass rev matching but you don't need to do it to save your tranny buddy, the only time you need to do it is when you don't have sychros anymore. Rev matching every time is a very meticulous way to "save your synchros" Most dudes who tune just replace the sychros or if they have the money get a rally gear box.
Sep 25 2009 10:26AM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Haha ok man, whatever you say. Do some research and get back to me.
Sep 25 2009 11:44AM
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localonvolkls
Posts: 448 - Karma: 90
Why don't you take that shit to subaru forum site and then you'll see what I mean.
Sep 25 2009 12:43PM
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davyjones
Posts: 617 - Karma: 12
one day..
Sep 25 2009 11:47PM
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