Socialism...

I think that Communism had potential but that it never really could have worked. Mainly because people wouldn't really stand for earning the same amount of money for different jobs, for example a heart surgeon versus a supermarket check out dude. People are always going to meet conflict for those reasons, along with maybe anti-state or anti-authority sentiment. Communism today is a relativley quiet thing but I've head all sorts of things about the West wanting to stomp it out, now that would be interesting, probably pretty destructive but interesting. I dunno, it's pretty controversial and 'up in the air' but that's what I think. A political idea that had huge potential but large flaws.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
*SkierX IS A STUD MUFFIN*
-Jesus had 1080's!-

if people were perfect communism would be the ideal form of goverment. but, people arent perfect so there for it would never work. but in theory i think it has its advantages, but i know i wouldnt wnat to live in a communist society



'my choice is what i chose to do...and if im causin no harm it shouldnt bother you...' Ben harper

me either aye but it's real interesting to think about, like how life and everything would be so very different.

Gordo, how do you mean if people were perfect it would work?? Like if everyone was the same?? or everyone didn't mind about anything?? I don't quite understand.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
*SkierX IS A STUD MUFFIN*
-Jesus had 1080's!-

Yes communism had everything factored in except for one thing: Human's feelings, emotions, and nature
-----------------
'If I were to dress up like an animal, I would fuck what I was' - DP

Capitalism biatch!
'I tend to expect the unexpected...'

i agree with Tim on that....
HUmans by nature are lazy.. unless there is some natural drive from deep down... people are going to want to take the laziest job. if it pays the same as a harder, 'upper class' job..


I like my bird! - Dave Pauls

Capitalism, word. Only system that ruly takes advantage of human nature-(hate, greed, intelligence).

'Victory? We're French, we don't even have a word for it.'

Beer is my copilot.

Just think of it this way, do you have your own private property? or maybe someone you know does? in communism that would not exist. NO PRIVATE PROPERTY, that means no motocross tracks, no backyard halfpipes, and a million other luxuries of capitalism. Communism could only work if humans didnt have the natural drive to be better than the rest. In a communist society a person who works his ass of would make just as much as someone who slacks, that would be fuckin gay, whereas capitalism can reward hard work!
'smoke em if you've got em!'

I agree with others above that said in theory communism would be perfect; however, life in that society would be pretty dull~it would be sorta like a cult because everyone is same, noone can increase or decrease in social status-the entire human spirit would be totally destroyed~~I think capitalists fear communism because there is no private entreprenuers(sp?) that could increase ideas for business
Trying is the First Step to Failure.~Homer~

I think functionalism actually works more effectively- where everyone works together 'like the organs in a body' (that is what the guy who created it said). It might be impossible in today's society with all the fighting and warring going on, but think of how good the world could be if we did all work together. Maybe its just another utopian society!!
* Vixen *

I think that the problem with socialism is the goverment. The ideas are good, but having a goverment to force people to be virtueous, is impossible. Well, maybe just undesirable.

Need a vacation? No.

In theory it rocks and would be good for everyone. But people seem to like to exploit one another so it doesn't work

two broken arms and I'm trying to wipe my but.

its all about globalization
---The Rail Janitor--
---For All Your Rail Cleaning Needs-

I dont think capitalism is fair at all. Capitalism promotes poverty and gross inequality, not to mention destruction of the environment and all sorts of other shit. I think communism is pretty cool but itll never ever work, human nature doesnt allow it. I dont know if everyone would work as hard in a communist society anyhow.



'Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.' -Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

really wish there was a way to have a combination of capitalismn and communism. Cmbine the best things about each, nd stamp out this hateful greed and drive that causes us to tear don others in striving or personal wealth. That's what capitalism is promoting these days. A comination system would be utterly perfect.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**

to have communism you need wealth


*******************
Fashion is for loosers
Stop following Hype

Isn't Marxist communism supposed to evolve out of capitalism? But ya i think socialism is the way to go, it's more feasible ten communism and doesn't hurt people as much as capitalism. It has it's problems, but so do all ideologies.


I don’t care what any fire victim says. where the hell would we be without fire? we'd be worse off than Mormons!!! - my friend dominique while bored in class.

isnt comunism where everybody is just made equal kinda, like you can make 70k a year but still have the same lifestyle as somebody that only makes 25k and everybody is at that same level??


Burns: We don't have to be adversaries Homer, we both want a fair union
contract...
Homer's Brain: Why is Mr. Burns being so nice to me?
Burns: ...and if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours...
Homer's Brain: Wait a minute, is he coming onto me?
Burns: I mean, if I should slip something into your pocket, what's the harm?
Homer's Brain: Oh my God! He IS coming onto me!'
Burns: After all, negotiations make strange bed-fellows.
Homer's Brain: (Screams)
Homer: Sorry Mr. Burns, but I don't go in for these backdoor shenanigans. Sure
I'm flattered, maybe even a little curious, but the answer is no!

Hey guys, thought I'd welcome myself back from my rather long posting hiatus with some thoughts on this one...

Really the point I am seeing everyone making is that communism is idealistic and impossible because people simply will not accept a society based solely on equality where some guy who does nothing has as much as some guy who works his whole life. This is a very common criticism of 'why communism doesn't work', but I don't really think it actually applies to the true principles of Marxism. First of all, Marxism is an evolutionary theory, meaning that Marx actually thought that people would eventually become fed up with class struggle and move to the next step in human economic and social progression that is communism. So to say that some American guy would figure, hey look I don't have to work and I still get everything I need, is kind of beside the point.

The Chinese say that China will some day become a true marxist society, they even give an exact time period of 450 years. This is because marxism in truth is more of an evolutionary form, and as I interpret it, even an evolution based on more of what the individual is taught and learns and how his society influences him to feel. If people no longer feel the need for competitiveness because capitalism is not a part of them as it is a part of everyone on here, then communism will generally be accepted.

This whole arguement is still not really applicable, because I feel that the past 150 years has proven the science of Marx to be incorrect. I think Marx probably underestimated the ability for humans to compromise and thus a revolution of the proletariat never occured on a wide- scale. I don't think MArx would have predicted that teh government and the bourgeoise would have actually relinquished some power and given it back to the proletariat as has occured pretty much everywhere on earth.

Back to the idea of people not accepting communism, and as one person even said, people not accepting socialism because of their human nature. I think its pretty obvious that equality is nearly as much a part of each Westerner as sompetitiveness, how else would you explain socialist governments elected in a handful of European countries. Overall people feel a need to protect others of their kind, and so it isn't as if people have actively resisted socialism, they have embraced it in much of the world. Even communism is something that the people are generally willing to accept. The reason communist countries inevitably fail is because of the Communist Party. Even in a place like the Soviet Union, competitiveness and class distinction was alive and well. But instead of owning a factory, the way to advance was through clientelism, rising through the ranks of the Communist Party. The fact that there is a ruling elite will automatically create a new kind of class distinction and the fact that people will naturally join and try to advance in a ruling Communist Party simply brings back competitiveness and destorys the possibility of communism forming in the minds of teh citizens.

In my view, this means there are very limited ways in which a country may actually become communist. First there must be some sort of huge economic or social inequality occuring and the masses of people (Marx's workers OR Mao's peasants, I don't think it matters) must overthrow the government and establish a communist state with a vanguard communist party. The party must then proceed in upholding the cornerstones of Marxism as Lenin and then Stalin did in his first few years. This means abolition of property, centralization of means of production, etc. Then I believe the country must be incredibly stable, even more so maybe than the United States is. Then I think the people would have to make an agreement with the ruling communist party where the party steps down and cooperation and stability are mutually agreed upon. At this point I think the people can actually develop into communists because there is no longer any sort of persuasion or appeal from above. So in a sense, I agree with Marx that communism is a sort of end progression for human society, but I think Marx underestimated how ideal the conditions had to be in order for this evolution to occur.

'There are only two powers in the world...the sword of the oppressor and the spirit of the oppressed. In the long run, the sword is always defeated by the spirit.'

true socialism and communism would be 'no government' at all. that's what the idea is.
'smoke em if you've got em!'

no. the GOAL of communism is anarchism.
the way there though is dictatorship. and that´s where it all breaks down.

anyway i think a democratic capitalistic society with social interventions is the best we can do.

to turn all the capitalists in the world to socialists is probably as hard as making bin laden like the usa so bye bye anarchism/communism.

you can have a capitalist/communist government.

comminusm is far better than todays form of gov't
a) in america top 5-10% of population own 85%+ of the wealth. not really equal is it.
b) communism is synonymous with evil due to the US propaganda of the early 70s and 80s. i guarentee most people who say bad things about communism dont have ANY idea what it stands for.
c) true that in a communist gov't the gov't has more control over the population, however there is no cost of healthcare, university (for those who deserve it) is free. it is a noted fact that education systems in communist countries is of a higher degree than that of north america. Cuba has a higher literacy rate than canada.
d) to the person that said in a communist gov't there is no 'property' and you cannot own a 'backyard half pipe': you are an idiot.
e) the only downside to communism is the human factor. people get corrupt and ruin the system. when it works communism is FAR better than the govt in which we live today. also concider the fact that any communist country is slapped with sanctions and embargos by the great united states. look at cuba. survived on ITS OWN for 45+ years in a communist gov't and still has a higher literacy rate then canada.


You cant hug your children with nuclear arms!

it is NOT a noted fact that schools in communist counties are of higher quality that northern americans. rather the opposite.

so how´d you like to be told to go and work in a factory when you really wanna be a graphic designer.

communism doesn´t give people the opportunity to shape their own lives.

it´s absurd to think you can create a free non-governed state through dictatorship.

anarchy can only be created by making examples, like starting collectives where you share equally and so on so people can see that it would work if only people put their mind to it.

the goal is a nice thought but an utopia and the way there, aka the proletarian dictatorship, sucks major monkey ass.

like i said most people are ignorant to the idea of communism...

who says people who live in a communist state cannot shape their own lives.



You cant hug your children with nuclear arms!

btw i wasent talking about anarchy.


You cant hug your children with nuclear arms!

take canada for example.
what does it have to show for?
literacy and life expectancy rate are similar to cuba (canadas life expectancy is 76.5 avg and cubas is 75)
canada has zero defence capabilites.
canada would operate much more efficiently under a socialist gov't. if it wasent so dependent upon the united states...


You cant hug your children with nuclear arms!

i hope you didn´t include me in the 'most people are ignorant to what communism is'. cuz that´d be far out.

i see you share the communist thinking of an elite that knows better than the masses and are therefore suited to lead the people until they understand how they should live.

who said you can´t shape your own life in a communist state?
well maybe you are really a socialist and not a communist, cuz you don´t seem to know that much about it and how about answering some of my arguments too.

discussions on this forum are always slow cuz people don´t read all that has been said and just keeps repeating their views and ignoring others.

write down your idea of how you would want to go about creating your society and i will analyze and crush it.

socialism isn´t communism! OK? humongous difference.

Im glad the USA is starting to change it policies. I think when we all hated communism we were doing terrible things for the world. Take Vietnam, We went against Ho Chi Min (sp?) and took sides with the non-communist south. Even though most people would say Ho Chi Min could offer a lot more for the country and help it grow and develop. I say communism better works in someplaces under certain conditions so we should go around trying to supress it.
_____________________
Andrew

Hey sweet thang, my I offer you a fish sandwich?
-Leon Phelps a.k.a.
The Ladies Man

sorry the should was supposed to say shouldn't!
_____________________
Andrew

Hey sweet thang, my I offer you a fish sandwich?
-Leon Phelps a.k.a.
The Ladies Man

the goal of communism is anarchism.
a place where everyone shapes their own lives and societies how they want.
the communist government/proletaian dictatorship is not meant to last forever.
so you can´t say a communist government would be ideal if people were perfect cuz a perfect communist state would have no government. would´n´t even be a state.

how many of you have actually read the communist manifesto or any other communist books or theories?

now, you can also say you are communist cuz you share the the thought about people sharing everything. but if you don´t support the whole idea about the proletarian dictatorship, then basically you´re a socialist or narchist, not a communist.

true though. most people haven´t thought about why they support certain political ideologies enough to actually be able to motivate them during a discussion.

all of these posts are very insightful and they all hold good points. ive noticed that we skiers tend to have a knack for the political sciences. BUT, but, but, but lets put an end to this with this: Any and every form of government (and anarchy) can seem perfect in a theorhetical state. being humans we utilize this flawless ness and eventually somebody finds something wrong with the current philosophy. therefore the only type of government that 'works' is one that will eventually end in revolution which is every government except anarchy which is, essentially, constant revolution. if you have posted here and you havent seen SLC Punk, you should. in addition to being a good flick, it has a good point about anarchy.

CO represent!!!

'Nobody has ever skied the K-12 and lived!'

Steve, about the merging of capitalism and communism, take a look at leftist-anarchism. Another popular form of Anarchism is Capitist-Anarchism. Rather dangerous. But, replace the 'capitalism' with 'Leftism' and you create a system made of opposites, which, in theory, act like yin and yang. Gotta go.

Need a vacation? No.

i have never really understood how capitalist-anarchists think. a market without regulations would lead to company-monopolies in notime.

Personally i'm all for monopolies. If a business has the ability and the overall resources to do it, then good for them, they've worked hard to get there.

And those of you who say... 'It would drive up prices!', then don't buy the goods that company produces,a d prices will eventually fall. The only time I believe a regulation should be put on the company, is when it is practically enslaving others overseas, or when the monopoly is under a vital product that people NEED.

Also... as I see it, Canada is a semi-socialist nation. it may not be fully social-ist, but the influences are definatly there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**

Yep.

But, about monopolies, can, they buy out the competion the bigger they get. Hmmm, but then super small grassroots alternitives will arise, so maybe its not that bad. Getting rid of the medium guys, so that the little guys can get ahead.

What a load of philobabble. Who cares? Lets all go skiing.

Need a vacation? No.

well if there is a monopoly then you can´t buy some other brand of the same product. so prices wouldn´t fall.

new companys would be bought out or crushed, competition eliminated, thus the free market bite itslef in the tail.

Theres a spectra haunting europe... Anyway, the communist manifesto is awesome


'My advice to you is to start drinking heavily' -Animal House

I prefer Animal Farm.

You can't be serious dude.
~~~Dope Degenerate Donationg Dude~~~

Marge: Homer, stop picking at it.
Homer (with donut head): Oh, but I'm so sweet and tasty. Well, time to go to work.
Lisa: Dad, I wouldn't go outside if I were you.
[Chief Wiggum and a lot of cops stand on the street outside]
Wiggum: Don't worry, boys. He's gotta come outta there sometime.

what we need is one unified world. a global government working as one, instead of factions warring against eachother.

This will never work though, because people suck. It would be fucked up within weeks.


'He got fired? What did he do?'
'He jumped off of the roof again'

Wow, how did I miss this. I know it's been said before and all but it's pretty simple. Communism or Marxism look amazing on paper, everyone is equal there is close to no compitition and eventually since all this is accheved they can just totally get rid of governmental control. But, that would never happen though. I mean people are people and people will create steriotypes and assumptions etc. groups or classes will always form. There is no way we can stop it. I mean look anywhere in nature, the majority of animals have a class set up.


Taylor
Tele-Jibber
~ Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider ~

While communism might be a great idea in theory, i think it is completely absurd to have that instated in a country. It would completely take away the inscentive,which would mean less technological advancement, for working harder because why work harder when u still make the same as a guy just sleeping all day. I would hate to live in a society where if i bust my ass everyday and the same bum gets what i get-that would suck. This leads me to why i am completely against welfare but that is another story. If i work at a low paying job and someone sits home all day and gets free money that is just not right
Trying is the First Step to Failure.~Homer~

but it doesn't even look good on paper...!!!!!!!!

fakiedrop.... you missed my saying, governmental regulaton on monopolies conrolling NECESSETIES... What this means, is complete freedom for corporations, unless the field that is being controlled, is a necessety. Basically, prices woul fall, because if it's not needed, people wouldn't buy it if the prices are high.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~Phunkin' Phatt Phreerider~~~~
~'BigAirSkier1580: and i am a newschool skier
DatGrlyChick: skier??
BigAirSkier1580: yah
DatGrlyChick: whats that?'
**Love ya Lacey**

i didnt bother to read any of the posts after the first one cuz theyre too long, so i might be saying the same thing as someone else. but ya, communism didnt/wouldnt work basically because people are too greedy and jealous. also, the communist leaders of the past(eg. stalin) were harsh dictators that did not care about the people even though the soviet union was supposed to be the 'peoples' republic

oh ya, and who would actually want to work hard and try to make advances when there arent any promotions and things for them to strive for.

What kind of work ethic would people have in a real communist society? Everything goes to the greater good, so they may feel that what they do is pointless, and stop trying. This creates a society of listless, bored, depressed people. I know it's a really juvenile book, but 'The Giver' kind of illustrates what I think people would be like in a communist society.

'I'm the guns of navarrone motherfucker!!'- Jules

oh sorry skierx. you meant hospital care and such. yeah definitely public hospital and school. for free! at least almost.

You guys are fudging one little thing...your income depends on your need, rather than everyone being payed equally. If the bum that didn't do anything all day had the exact number of people living with him as you, the exact health problems as you....bla bla....then yes you would make exactly the same. There would be cases where there are bums that do nothing that would be pulling in 10x what you are just due to their needs, so in actuality its worse than you thought.

Communism/ socialism are good political theories and everyone who said communism is just a transition is obviously intelligent and has actually read the manifesto. That whole thing about how communism takes away freedom I agree with to a point but not totally. Take a look at the united states, the democrats and the republicans, different toilet same shit. There is no 'political freedom' thats horseshit. Thats why communism was made illegal and great people such as marcus garvey were exported. The Government is very good at deceiving people. I mean look at all the working class morons who are too stupid to recognize the benefits of socialism voting for bush. They keep these motherfuckers preoccupied with shit like 'our freedom is in jepordy' and all that other propaganda. Communism/ socialism probably won't be institued in North America because of ignorance and because , right now, their really aren't the right conditions. If you don't know what I'm talking about go read about cuba and russia and do your self a favor and read the manifesto.
Also fuck you to Bruce wayne, 'capitalism biotch' listen son go read a fucking book cause you don't know what the fuck your talking about. Uncle Sam has his dick so far up your ass it's affecting your intelligence. There are some things I like about capitalism and thats why i think that democratic socialism is the best form of government. In this you have controlled capitalism. Lets face it some people just need money to make themselves feel good. It's human nature, under this system these people just have to work extra to get things like SUV's which are generally unneccesary. However, you don't have class gaps and everyone is gaurenteed a minum yearly income. It's a compromise between the state and the individual.
I think that everyone should probably read the communist manifesto but when it really comes down to it theres 1 line thats sums it up. In Bill and Teds excelletn adventure when they go to the future, 'BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER', thats what its all about man.
Peace