How will Obama pay for the public option?

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@th1337

i mean, healthcare is increasing at an exponential rate, companies are dropping coverage left and right because they cant afford it. yes, its broken.

Sep 10 2009 8:29PM

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Crazy Fool

maybe just a national tv campaign that says

HEY YOU, THATS RIGHT YOU! IF YOU CANT COUNT YOUR TOES WHEN YOURE STANDING UP GO OUTSIDE AND RUN SOME GOD DAMN LAPS AROUND THE BLOCK! THEN WHEN YOU HAVE THAT DONE. GO DO IT AGAIN!

hahahaaa

dont we already have those "move your body tv ads"? or maybe thats only in the peoples republic of Minnesota...

Sep 10 2009 8:29PM

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@th1337

I'd love to see a massive tax increase on sugared drinks and unhealthy food but it would represent a huge and sudden burden on thousands of businesses. Phasing something like that in would, in an ideal world, be an excellent revenue source. Alternatively, raise the tax rate as a whole and carve out new deductions and credits for certain kinds of businesses promoting healthy living. Tax policy is all about encouraging some behaviours and discouraging others, whether it be investing or otherwise. This, of course, will never happen; McDonalds or Coke alone can buy any bill like this outright and ensure that it never sees the light of day. And honestly, it's secondary. People who have heart attacks and die of smoking rarely live long enough to rack up massive health care bills. From a fiscal efficiency standpoint, the best policy is to shove as many Arch Deluxes down fatty's throat as you can and see if you can't bump him off as quickly as possible.

Sep 10 2009 8:29PM

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Crazy Fool

look here:

It costs much more to run a reactionary health care program than it does to run a preventative health care program (that is it costs more to perform bypass surgery after a heart attack than regular checkups and exercise).

by providing insurance for all, we take the money that we spend now on reactionary care and turn the system into preventative care. This means we actually take care of our health, not our illness. The savings come down the road, once we start the shift to a proactive model of medicine.

I know you have trouble looking past the initial investment, thinking, we can't afford it now, therefore we shouldn't reform; but the whole point is to reduce the burden of chronic conditions in the future, which, if we keep the status quo would result in an even higher cost.

The longer you put off reform, the more money you're going to spend. So if you want to save money,which i understand is your concern, you need to buy in now, even if the cost is ridiculously high, because, lets be honest here, it's not going to get any cheaper.

Sep 10 2009 8:31PM

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KarmaInitiative

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i'm not supprised that the thread i made about the finances of obama's public option turned into an argument, but an argument about our schooling system and media bias?? thats supprising

thank you to the few people who gave me some actual insight

Sep 10 2009 8:31PM

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LO_GO

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Insane

he;s going to pay for it by taxing the shit out of us during a economic crisis not the vest idea on obama's part although you could always ask acorn for advice ha

Sep 10 2009 8:32PM

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@th1337

PS if the estimates of 5% enrollment in the public option, which is required to make up its expenses from revenues, is accurate, this won't actually cost fuck all relatively speaking. Like, paying for it by eliminating waste and fraud in medicare is actually overshooting. The kick-in is 4 years down the road and I'd bet by 10 years afterwards it's actually reducing, not contributing to, the defecit. Considering he says he's putting a provision in the bill mandating cutting spending if savings don't materialize, it being 100% paid for without tax increases is a given. There is no doubt in my mind, aside from the "ifs" in what I just wrote.

Sep 10 2009 8:33PM

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Post Whore

god thats fucking annoying.

Sep 10 2009 8:35PM

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Crazy Fool

no, i dont know if i would describe Obama as fiscally responsible. but you go ahead with that. haha :)

anywho you hit it, we will pay for it. well actually poor people wont pay for it, ill pay for it. how do i pay for it again? o thats right, taxes, sheesh its not like taxes arnt high enough or anything.

o yes did you know it is actually possible for tax cuts to pay for themselves? see if you can figure out how that might be.

likewise when bush cut taxes he actually shifted the total federal tax burden farther towards the rich. (the rich payed more of the federal budget after bushs tax cut than they did before) but those pesky details are boring and dont sound as good as.. "bush only cut taxes for his rich bastard friends"

Sep 10 2009 8:36PM

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grown-ninja

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it sounds like your not in college, i could be wrong though, do you knwo how expensive shit is dude, my schools costs 48 g's a year luckly my dad works here so i only pay room and board but thats still like 15 or 16, ( and fuck the MBA progam i want to get into is 78 grand a fucking year im gona be paying out the ass till im 50 just to get some brain) the only scholarships i got was 7,500 a year to my school (and im not dumb, im not trying to claim just showing examples...i was in almost every ap class graduated 13th in my class, played on a varsit sports team almost every season every since 9th grade, etc.) and i got shit money i would still be paying about 40 thousand a year, my parent make descent money not rich/wealthy though, the fed said we could afford 30 grand a year for me to go to college when in reality just buying books is tough for my fam, so i get no financial aid, personaly the best way to get into college= be from a different country, or of black/american indian descent, poor handy capt woman with maybe at least an 85 average, full ride anywere,

^^^and what some one said about making america the richest country by leagilizing weed and not continueing fighting in endless wars, i cought the scarsism but really you think obama is goning to get out of teh middle east, no chance, right/left they all work for teh same people he allready reneged on what he said when he was runing by allready sending 10's of thousand more troops to afagastan,

there is no way to pay for this health care besides maybe ending the federal reserve and we know obama wont do that since he has allready given them more power, and to the people who said tax the rich, that is such a stupid idea, thats obamas answer to everying first off his clasification of rich isnt rich 250,000 yea that is a shit ton of money but not rich, thats a mom and dad who have been a cop and teacher for about 10-15 years each can make that much pre tax money, the amount that the wealthy are allreasy taxed, excluding the capital gains tax, is out of controle, if its up to obama there will be no insentive to work, heck if i can not work, and the government will give me health care, a free cell fone , a free education and money back on my taxes and a check every week, and free fiood, shit sign me up, whats the insentive to work anymore

im sure the grammer police will be all over me, im at work so theres no chance im gona read over my stuff

Sep 10 2009 8:40PM

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@th1337

ok. i hate the biased media debate, because anyone with half a brain knows that cable "news" is shit, period.

but here would be my problem with fox over msnbc. msnbc is definitely easily as far left as fox is right. however it does not encourage the irrationality that fox does. there is no doubt in my mind that that guy who killed those cops in new york was influenced partially by fox news. he killed them because he was afraid of losing his guns, and we all know fox loves the scare tactics, more so even than any other network on tv. they love to scream how obama is taking your guns!!!!! even though he hasnt done shit about guns.

again when the guy killed tiller. are you trying to tell me he wasnt motivated by the bullshit fox news spreads like "tiller the baby killer". fox news encourages irrationality, irresponsibility, and fear.

not to mention the blatant racism. beck saying that what obama is doing is reparations? blatantly racist. same with the coverage they gave sotamayor.

msnbc is biased as hell, but it doesnt encourage violence and ignoracnce the way fox does.

Sep 10 2009 8:40PM

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Post Whore

to those who are constantly ranting on Fox they obviously havent watched it very much. yes, they have nutjobs like Glen Beck, Hannity, and OReilly can get pretty fucking nuts at times but they also have guys like Neil Cavuto, Van Susteran, and Bret Baire who report just stragith news, whats happening, and what effects of what is happening CAN have on the average person.

Sep 10 2009 8:41PM

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Crazy Fool

not to be a bitch but im not seeing any numbers... about how much reactionary care costs VS preventive. its a common left talking point.

look at what reform did in MA.. they fucked the entire state.

im not saying we dont need reform. im saying we better fucking get it right. because they are spending a bunch of my god damn money!

Sep 10 2009 8:42PM

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prontocuts.com

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No Life

no they arent. im an idiot and the air force will pay me to goto school

its all about getting the right degree, and sacrificing some freedoms.

even so, cheap schools are always possible. Utah state is like 4 grand a year

Sep 10 2009 8:43PM

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@th1337

wait wait wait justin. now, not to be a dick here, but i dont think your going to be making over 250 grand anytime soon haha. no offense.

Sep 10 2009 8:43PM

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@th1337

Okay, when has he said he'd raise taxes to pay for the public option? First of all, if he did, it sounds like it would cost next to nothing, but as it stands it's meant to be self-sufficient.

Second, the Bush tax cuts actually had the following effect on the federal budget.

Honestly, you haven't got a background in tax and you don't know a damn thing about it, so stop trying to sound clevel with your "try to figure out how tax cuts can pay for themselves" simplicity. You probably shouldn't be talking down to Melvs as if he were dumber than you, given that he does have more advanced education than you do.

Sep 10 2009 8:45PM

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Crazy Fool

come on Ben. are you still operating under the assumption the president wont be raising taxes on WAY more people than just the evil "rich". :)

like ive always said, my plan in life is to win the lottery.. better start buying more tickets considering ive only bought about 5 in my whole life... i think i need a new plan :)

Sep 10 2009 8:45PM

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@th1337

i dont think he will. call me ignorant, gullible (wow it took me way to long to spell that right) whatever, but i really dont think he will.

Sep 10 2009 8:46PM

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Post Whore

middle class probably will too... thats how it always happens.

Sep 10 2009 8:48PM

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@th1337

Well this all seems like a pretty good plan for you guys, to me. I mean, if you just implement the republican ideas, then you're throwing a few hundred billion at a problem that will just exacerbate itself down the road, so that would be the epitome of spending a bunch of your god damn money wrongly. Also, how much do you personally pay in taxes? I never understand kids on here complaining about being in the top tax brackets; I doubt there's a single full fledged doctor, i-banker or lawyer on this website. The richest people on here are probably pro skiers.

Sep 10 2009 8:48PM

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RudyGarmisch

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@th1337

Also, heres an idea on a healtcare system, since all the ones the world has ever seen so far have problems. Every 'fix' still sees one side crying, and any real change to the dying beast takes years because of all the beurocratic bullshit.

Roundtable meeting. Get officials from all the different types of healthcare systems in the world, from Canada to Slovakia. Bring in insur

Sep 10 2009 8:49PM

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@th1337

By the way, he has so far kept his promises on taxes from the campaign... around 95% of households have a lower tax burden or are eligible therefor, and no one's taxes have increased outside the 250k+ household income bracket.

Sep 10 2009 8:49PM

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Crazy Fool

im simply operating under the assumption Obama will pay for his spending. unlike what Bush did. (and Melvs said he was trying to pay for his spending)

yes JD i know Bush raised the debt. ive already crucified him time and time again for it. would you like me to pound one more nail?

and the fact still stands you can cut taxes, grow your way out of it, and make more money after cutting taxes than you did before. the fact also remains that before the bush tax cuts the "rich" payed 81% of income taxes payed. after bushs tax cuts they actually payed 85% of income taxes payed.

Sep 10 2009 8:50PM

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@th1337

yes, but think about the parents of most skiers on this site. this doesnt really apply to justin (skiminnesota) because i know he pays for his own ski shit, but id be willing to bet at least 75% of this site has mommy and daddy pay for their skiing. and lord knows mommy and daddy dont want their son/daughter voting for a guy who would raise taxes on them.

Sep 10 2009 8:52PM

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Post Whore

hey, i work in the winter at a ski shop so i can afford getting new gear with the employee discount. even then, im screwed with only being able to afford to trips up to baker a year since starting school. it sucks. last year, i didnt even make enough to replace my 6 year old boots.

Sep 10 2009 8:54PM

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Crazy Fool

open heart surgery: $20000

gym membership : $600/year

Sep 10 2009 8:55PM

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@th1337

... Knee surgery?

I'm not kidding, the numbers have been run and the gym membership guy actually ends up costing the system more. The real way preventive care saves money is by catching unavoidable ailments early, like cancer.

Sep 10 2009 8:57PM

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RudyGarmisch

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@th1337

Also, heres an idea on a healtcare system, since all the ones the world has ever seen so far have problems. Every 'fix' still sees one side crying, and any real change to the dying beast takes years because of all the beurocratic bullshit.

Roundtable meeting. Get officials from all the different types of healthcare systems in the world, from Canada to Slovakia. Bring in insurance company CEO's, republicans, democrats, doctors, nurses. Sit everyone down and say, okay, forget the past and the old systems. Here are the stats on America's population, these are the budget constraints. Design a perfect healthcare system.

Sep 10 2009 8:58PM

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Post Whore

heart disease, diabetes, emphysema (sp?)... those could be in that list too right?

Sep 10 2009 8:58PM

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Crazy Fool

well i am in no way going to disclose my personal finances on a skiing website. and truth be told i dont pay a whole shitton. but thats because im a broke college student who pays for his own tuition. books, and living expenses aside from rent, the heat, the water, and a little bit of food.

i do however pay taxes on EVERYTHING (well not everything we have some tax free items here in MN) but one of my favorite publicly funded projects in this great state would definitely have to be that new kickass baseball stadium. whats it cost you to license your car in Canada? i have a POS malibu and last year it cost me $80 to keep it on the road..

Sep 10 2009 8:59PM

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Crazy Fool

but really, do you actually think it's cheaper to pay for heart surgery rather than staying healthy in the first place?

if you need to see numbers, look up the cost of chronic conditions, see what once are easily preventable, and the costs associated with those that go untreated.

this shit is a no brainer, as in, even if you lack a brain, you see the truth behind it.

Sep 10 2009 9:02PM

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Delphi

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sounds like you get "stupider." grammar check. Haven't read both pages, but I'm glad someone is asking how he plans on paying for this because I am also curious. I've looked up a few different sources, and although some of them are vague, I've found one argument that suits me well.

Obama said in his speech that "we can pay for this plan with savings." The plan is going to cost around $1 trillion over ten years (assuming that number isn't as wrong as most other spending estimates like the Big Dig and Medicare.) He's going to find a TRILLION in savings? In "waste and fraud?" Remember, right now Medicare only covers 80% of what seniors get. The other 20% is shifted on the rest of us. And he's going to save a TRILLION dollars from that?

also

The president is saying that if we don't add another $1 trillion to our spending, the deficit will get worse. But if we spend this massive amount of money, the deficit will go down. And government won't grow--even after adding $1 trillion in spending--but your Medicare coverage will go up. And your private insurance will get cheaper. And your health care will get better.

www.michaelgraham.com

seriously, I don't know how any rational person believed a word Obama said in his latest speech, none of it makes a lick of sense.

Sep 10 2009 9:05PM

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Crazy Fool

so we have government funded gyms? thats going to solve the problem? im not following here. how do you motivate people to go and burn off the lbs? legislate physical fitness?

ooo i have a winner!!! lets have special camps where we send all the fat people. if they make it out alive then so be it, if not. we are no worse off. hehehehe

(that was sarcasm, being a smart ass, dont think i was being a douche, it was a joke. )

Sep 10 2009 9:06PM

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Post Whore

HEY! im a bit overweight... i aint going to no government fat concentration camp!!!!! my people have been sent to those before (the japanese side of my family)... FFFFUUUUUCCCCKKKK THAT!

yes, im trying to lose weight, its a bitch.

Sep 10 2009 9:08PM

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@th1337

this sentence says oh so much

Sep 10 2009 9:09PM

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Crazy Fool

i'll believe you, and take your point, but to be fair, even if you blow out a knee, it's 10k vs 20k for a bypass. However I think it's more than just unavoidable ailments, it's about getting people to take care of themselves rather than have a system to take care of them.

which, strangely enough, is exactly what someone like Justin advocates.

Sep 10 2009 9:10PM

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babujib

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No Life

god that was ignorant. first of all, his tax cuts had so little to do with the sudden raise in national debt with the bush administration, it was the iraqi war (which was stupid on bush's part no doubt). The sudden drop in debt during the clinton administration is becuase of the internet bubble along with the signing of the CRA, which many believe is the cause of the problem with our economy now. that graph has so many variables that if you presented that to a high school stat class they would laugh at you. dont even try to compare bush's debt to obamas, through all 8 years of the bush administration he added $4 trillion to the national debt,more than any other president before him, absolutely absurd. obama has ALREADY added nearly $2 trillion with less than a year under his belt. Also, the obamacare plan would cost 90 billion dollars a year to start out (this is coming from the person who said that cash for clunkers would last 3 months and lasted 3 days, not so trustworthy with money in my eyes).

To Asian-Allen:
As said above, most medical students come out of med school with a $200,000+ debt. On top of this, they have to pay malpractice insurance, which for anesthesiologists for instance have an average of $25,000 a year. Tell me who would want to become a doctor if the amount their paid goes down. I agree with you that this shouldnt be the reason you want to become a doctor (my hope for my future is to be a doctor in doctors without boarders).

In general, truthfully i like the idea, but under such fickle economy where the national debt is through the roof, its just not the right time.

Sep 10 2009 9:14PM

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Delphi

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it says that I've looked at a bunch of the opposition and have narrowed my belief on a certain topic down to one or two paragraphs where someone more eloquent than I succinctly summarizes how I feel about this.

I also looked at the shit at places like MoveOn.org and some of the pro single payer whack jobs out there, but I couldn't take that big of a dose of craziness, it was just too much.

Sep 10 2009 9:14PM

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@th1337

Which is exactly the point: it's never as simple as just one thing. Which is why it's pointless to try to debate tax policy on a skiing website, or pretty much anywhere else, except among people who know tax inside and out. I have said it before: the notion that tax policy is a major issue in every election despite the fact that less than 1% of the population (to be generous) has even a passable understanding of it much less a firm one is just incredible to me. So let's not get into an argument about whether the Bush tax cuts were good or bad because no one here (including me, and I'm going into tax law) is qualified to answer those questions.

Sep 10 2009 9:22PM

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@th1337

Don't come to Canada, you might have a stroke. Although if you do, don't worry, you'll be well taken care of.

Sep 10 2009 9:23PM

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Post Whore

i will say this. i learned this in 8th grade and im now 20 but this will always stay with me.

"you cant increase spending, cut taxes, and expect to save money... it doesnt work" we did a government project with Sim City 2 in my Social Studies class and that was the ONE thing i have remembered from that class.

Sep 10 2009 9:24PM

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@th1337

im going to repeat myself. the us will be single payer within 15 years.

Sep 10 2009 9:24PM

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Post Whore

is this where i "boo" like an ignorant person without asking why you say this?

Sep 10 2009 9:25PM

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@th1337

Sep 10 2009 9:26PM

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Post Whore

its true though. you spend money and cut taxes you wont be saving money....

Sep 10 2009 9:27PM

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Crazy Fool

if your economy grows. (as it hopefully will) your reduced tax rate will still yield more money than it did before. because now people are richer. and while they might be paying a smaller percentage of their income in taxes. the total amount they pay would actually be higher.

Sep 10 2009 9:29PM

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@th1337

This is wrong. And it's wrong because it's an oversimlification. What do you mean by "cut taxes"? That covers SO much, it's just not even something that the mind can wrap itself around. What do you mean by "save money"? What you're saying here just isn't specific enough to be anywhere close to true. There are thousands of ways you can cut taxes, increase spending, and end up with more money. Hundreds of thousands. Maybe an infinite number of ways.

Sep 10 2009 9:30PM

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