Healthcare Rationing

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Crazy Fool

first, you just compared apples to oranges. there is NO preventive care for someone who gets hit by a bus... i agree those people need to be fixed up pronto and not be denied the care they need.

subsidies. funny you should bring them up. and if you want to create a thread on government subsidies i would be happy to join in. (in a nutshell for this thread) GTFO government.

why is my persistent cough a matter of national security? i would love to hear your rationalization of this comment.

Aug 9 2009 11:28PM

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skier_boy26

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Crazy Fool

Obviously you're oblivious to the history of the country, and evidently that of the constitution as well.

Aug 9 2009 11:30PM

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Crazy Fool

well in order to tell you why you might or might not be wrong i would first have to know why you think the military spending in this country is to blame for our current economic predicament.... you never really expounded on your little bit of wisdom... so in order for me to tell you are wrong i would first need to know why you think you are right....

Aug 9 2009 11:32PM

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Crazy Fool

The WHO list is bullshit.

They list Italy, Andorra, Singapore, Malta, Oman, Portugal, Greece, Morocco, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Columbia, Cyprus, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Canada, Chile, the Dominican Republic, and Costa Rica as being higher than the US. Consider that no US citizens travel to these countries for life-threatening situations and the fact that most advances in modern medicine happen in the US, and that should make you question their system for ranking health care. Their criteria included subjective and political assessments such as â€œFairness in financial contribution.â€œ

Since your so into numbers and rankings how about these:
Cancer Survival Rates
60% US
55% Canada
48% Europe
Oh, that government health care is sounding better already.

Prostate Cancer Survival
81% US
43% Britain

You say that health care disregards the poor and middle class. Im sorry, Im middle class. It hasnt diregarded me. We have Medicare and Medicaid. There are programs in place for people that cannot afford it. Yes there are 11 million( see my other post) people that cannot afford it out there, and measures like TORT reform, insurance companies competing over state lines, health savings accounts and many others.

Name the country that has all of those, the longest life expectancy, the lowest mortality rate, the healthiest population, the highest cancer survival rates, the greatest access to care...wait, no country can have all of those. Its like having a city have the winner of the super bowl, world series, NBA championship, MLS championship, Stanley Cup, NCAA football and basketball championship all in one year. We have the best health care because everyone can get treated. If you walk into a hospital with a gun shot wound, people dont ask what insurance you have, they treat you and give you a bill later. They have payment plans. They also have deals for uninsured people(they dont like dealing with insurance and it saves them money when they dont have to).

You are still going to pay for illegals and others through taxes to provide that insurance. There are other ways to take care uninsured people other than creating a government option. They are cheaper, more effecient and have less bureaucratic bullshit.

GREAT WEVE HAD THE VA AND MEDICARE FOR 60 YEARS. HAVE YOU NOT SEEN HOW TERRIBLE THE VA IS? DO YOU NOT SEE MEDICARE IS TOTALLY BROKE? HAVE YOU NOT SEEN THE FAILED SYSTEM IN MASSACHUSETTS? YEAH, ITS WAY OVER BUDGET.

MORE NUMBERS
2050-THE YEAR MEDICARE, MEDICAID AND SOCIAL SECURITY WILL CONSUME THE ENTIRE FEDERAL BUDGET

107 TRILLION IS THE ESTIMATED SHORTFALL OF MEDICARE AND SOCIAL SECURITY PROGRAMS.

MEDICARE IS BANKRUPT. THE MASSACHUSETTS PLAN IS WAY OVER BUDGET. THEY ARE PLANNING A GOVERNMENT OPTION(OBLIGATION) BASED ON THESE AND THEY DONT THINK IT WILL GO THE SAME ROAD?

Aug 9 2009 11:34PM

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Crazy Fool

not the story i was told.... my version included things like NO choice. waiting. its all about who was first in line. not who is in the most need of care. the COST. the taxes to pay for it, like TV taxes, gas taxes up the ass. taxes taxes taxes taxes.

Aug 9 2009 11:36PM

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cjgncjgn

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Buddy, Wikipedia is not a useful source at the university level... are you sure your a 3rd year? Freshman maybe...

But this really made me laugh. If it's on the internet it MUST be true eh?

oh and your healthcare savings plan? Bullshit. A bypass can run up to a million dollars, are you really going to leave a million in an account your entire life?

Maybe when you grow up, move out, realize propaganda is propaganda and not believe it at face value...

Thanks for the laugh!

Aug 9 2009 11:37PM

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Crazy Fool

you jumped in to something completely separate from what you were trying to talk about, it's not my fault that they are apples and oranges...in YACHT world, people who get hit by a bus do not have a right to receive emergency care if they can't pay the doctor.

for a good comparison, is it cheaper to prevent a heart attack, or to treat someone after they have one...

Aug 9 2009 11:38PM

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No Life

This was quite the rant and you seem genuinely concerned so I'll try to explain our position point by point.

"honestly. all you people care about is the bottom line and capital gain and now even remotely close to how many ethical boundaries you break in the process, so why fucking bother preaching garbage to people who actually have the right to their opinion because they value every essence known as life?"

The bottom line is very very important, if you don't keep the bottom line it means your in debt and debt is a very bad thing to be in. Do we not have a right to our opinion because in your opinion we don't value all human lives? That sounds like you don't value our lives since you would seek to silence our opinion.

"do you think you get by every day because someone doesn't care about you? NO. how about public transport, grocery stores, convenience stores, fucking clothing, sales, food, health care, schools, teachers. :

I don't use public transportation first off. Grocery stores and all of those other places you mentioned that are privately owned don't give a fuck about you, they care about making money and look at how amazing all of those places are.

"do you think someone woke up and said, hey how can i make the world a better place."

That is the classic communist fallacy, people are not motivated by wanting to help others, they are motivated by wanting to help themselves, it is human nature and it is why capitalism works so well.

"you're obviously not a big enough person to donate to charity in the first place seeing how you're too self involved to give a fuck about your neighbor in the first place,"

We are saying that we do care about our neighbors enough to willing give money to them through charity. We are also saying that we care about our rights, like the right to not have money forcibly taken from us and given to someone else.

"your rights were combined by a group of people who conveniently came to a GROUP consensus about what could better your NATION,"

No person granted me my rights or gave them to me, as a human being I have NATURAL RIGHTS that no man can take away.

"you all seem to think neglect the fact that by the time you've donated your 10% of your annual salary to millions of people, that millions of people have donated whatever percentage of their salaries to you."

Why would someone who is donating money to charity need to get money from charity? This doesn't make much sense.

"who the fuck raised you people?! "

My parents and grandparents who are amazing and very generous people, my grandfather once bought a new car for a man in his church who lost his and could not afford a new one and would have lost his job without one. That is just one example of the extreme generosity of the people who raised me.

Aug 9 2009 11:40PM

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Crazy Fool

hahaha

first off i am far from a "fat fuck"

second i do in fact care about my neighbor. and i do infact help those who are less fortunate than myself...

third the free market is such a wonderful thing... do you really thing that bus driver is concerned with how your day is going? or maybe you live in a fantasy land.

if you want a more mature well thought out response maybe you should take the personal attacks down a notch, and treat me with the same respect you claim i lack.

sorry for being a wise ass, but if you knew me then you would know thats my style. you would also notice i abstained from calling you a fat fuck, or a shallow person... stay classy NS.

Aug 9 2009 11:41PM

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No Life

It's like you don't read what I say.

In YACHT world other people are not required by law to pay for other peoples medical bills if those people don't have the money and were not unable because of handicap or youth to secure that money on their own. In YACHT world people would be treated from the compassion of doctors (which is very deep) and from the money of compassionate people, instead of from money that was forcibly taken from people.

Aug 9 2009 11:46PM

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No Life

I guess to sum it all up in YACHT world one individual does not have the RIGHT to any other individuals property no matter what.

Aug 9 2009 11:48PM

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Crazy Fool

well apparently a doctor has a right to your money more so than you have a right to your health

Aug 9 2009 11:49PM

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Crazy Fool

sorry correction. it should be the person behind the counter at the gas station, the register, some capacity like that. (the private sector)

Aug 9 2009 11:53PM

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Crazy Fool

YES LETS HAVE A NANNY STATE.

THE GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU

Do you not see that people become reliant and dependent upon the government?

But the rich dont pay their fair share...

THE TOP 1%(EARN OVER 410,000) OF INCOME EARNERS PAYS FOR 40.1% OF THE TOTAL FEDERAL INCOME TAXES. AND THEY DO NOT EARN OVER 40% OF THE INCOME. THEY EARN 22.8% OF THE INCOME.

THE SHARE PAID BY THE TOP 1% EXCEEDS THE AMOUNT PAID BY THE BOTTOM 95%

NOW THE TOP .1% OF INCOME EARNERS PAY 20% OF THE FEREDERAL INCOME TAXES, BUT MAKE UP 12% OF INCOME.

The income tax was supposed to be temporary and only affect the top 1%. Stop giving into class warfare and look at reality. Redistribution of wealth does not work. It destroys ambition. The war on poverty has been the most expensive war this country has had. MUCH higher than the war on iraq and afghanistan. What is to show for it...more people are poor. The programs fail. because it is not the government that fixes the problems. No, largely, governments create more problems trying to fix problems they have no business trying to fix in the first place. People fix their own problems. it is not the governments job to hold our hand across the street.

Stop thining so emotionally. Start thinking rationally.

Aug 9 2009 11:53PM

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No Life

Of course that procedure is expensive you act like I don't know that but lets look at the numbers. If I invest $15,000 a year into a HSA in the next 30 years (I am 20 now and get off my parents insurance when I'm 23 so I'll likely start then) if that HSA has an interest rate of 5% that means by the time I'm 53 I'll have $1,111,000 in my HSA. That is a lot of money to have just for my own health care at age 53 and not to mention the fact that if I don't need any sort of expensive procedurs I can use that money on other things or give it to charity or my childern. I'll also likely up the investment when I have a kid so me wife and I's HSA would adequetly cover them as well. Not to mention since I'm directly responsible for paying for my own health costs I am much more likely to take as many preventative messures as I can to not have to spend this money ie staying i good health.

Aug 9 2009 11:57PM

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Crazy Fool

this fits here i think...

i think this goes well too. but i fear NS might be a little dense :) and wont understand what im getting at when bringing this graph out...

Aug 9 2009 11:59PM

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No Life

A doctor has a right to his property which is his time and expertise I have no right to this property end of story.

Aug 9 2009 11:59PM

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Crazy Fool

No. People are compassionate. Rich people are compassionate. You are advocating stealing money that is someone elses and giving it to a person that is dependant on government. YOU NEED TO TAKE A STEP BACK. People can contribute to private organizations. They would contribute even more if they got dollar to dollar tax deductions from it but no, the left, is trying to make it so you get even less than it is now, which results in less money for charities.

This country was founded on freedom. one of the freedoms is economic freedom. When Macao, hong kong, new zealand, and australia have more economic freedom than us, we have a problem. People pay higher income taxes here than every other country, except denmark(this is in states like california that have high state income tax rates), but this does not even include the SS tax, medicare and medicaid... Yeah, the rich still dont pay their fair share. Just start advocating communism, cause youre flirting with it right now.

You dont need to tax the rich to be compassionate. Again, you let your emotions dictate your thoughts, instead of using logic and rational thought to let you see the facts that welfare and the war on poverty have not helped people, but have driven them further into it, because of a dependence on government and a lack of ambition.

Aug 9 2009 11:59PM

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Crazy Fool

no you have it all wrong. i have an unalienable right to the fruits of YOUR labor, your money. EVERYTHING! ahhhhh!

Aug 10 2009 12:00AM

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Crazy Fool

your right to health supersedes this, the value of his expertise is based on my need for health

Aug 10 2009 12:02AM

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Crazy Fool

dont forget that the bush tax cuts created more income for the government than they would have had under the current tax rates.

Its accepted that when you lower taxes, people spend more, create jobs, invest. More jobs, spending = more revenue for the government. Raises taxes does what? Cuts jobs, cuts spending and will, as time goes on give less money to the government...especially after all the rich move out--just look at california.

Now all you people that see people that make over $250,000 a year as being the EVIL RICH, you will be sad to know that taxing this bracket will kill our economy even more. Even the threat of this tax is keeping jobs from being created, or kept.

80% of the businesses in this country are small businesses.

A small business is a business that the taxes are done on one person's tax return. Many small businesses, say a guy that owns 3 car washes, will earn far more than 250,000 a year(this is the business. The owner doesnt make that much. This goes to pay employees and invest further in the business). But just with the threat of this tax, they will not expand to other locations, hire more people, and in many cases they have to fire people.

Taxing this tax bracket does not just affect the rich. It will affect a large portion of small businesses, which already take up a large part of the economy.

It really isnt that complicated.

Aug 10 2009 12:12AM

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Crazy Fool

THERE IS NO RIGHT TO HEALTH.

FIND WHERE IT IS IN THE CONSTITUTION FOR ME.

I would be delighted to see it.

Aug 10 2009 12:16AM

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twintipteles

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too bad inflation has averaged 3.1% since 1900 you dumb fuck. But I guess that isn't relevant in your idealized world.

Oh, and remember how bush wanted to privatize social security? Just imagine how badly that would have exacerbated our current financial dillemma.

Isn't it pretty obvious that putting rainy day funds at the whim of a volatile marketplace kind of defeats the purpouse?

Aug 10 2009 12:19AM

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Crazy Fool

we have a right to pursue life, liberty and happiness, basic good health is necessary for the pursuit of life... is this really hard to grasp? we're not talking about the right to have whatever health care you want, simply plain good health.

Aug 10 2009 12:23AM

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@th1337

Good to see Tanner Hall weighing in on health care reform!

So much ignorance from people who like to think they understand income tax... yeesh. But at least you guys aren't like the crazies out there who think the house bill is a sneaky way to kill off old people.

Aug 10 2009 12:32AM

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@th1337

This, for example. You talk about taxes in pretty much every political thread, post graphs in a futile attempt to make people think you have the slightest idea what you're talking about, but you miss the extremely basic (basic, like, accounting 101 basic) that employee wages and "further investment in business" are 100% tax deductible? This think you've come up with is a sole prop, he can deduct all of this and his take-home earnings drop below $250,000. That's beside the point that the only way the small business's taxes are done on the owner's tax return is if he isn't incorporated, which he should be if he's actually doing well enough to have 3 locations, for about a thousand different reasons. This dude has access to so many tax planning mechanisms, he's an idiot if he's being victimized by this, yet you guy sare all about how the poor should be doing more to pull themselves up? Seriously, you're not even one of the dumber people debating politics in the arena (those would be the crazies I referenced earlier talking about "death panels) and you apparently still don't comprehend some of the basics, so why is this even being discussed? It's completely unproductive. You don't know what you're talking about and most of the american voting public doesn't either and can't be expected to. Democracy fail.

Aug 10 2009 12:44AM

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No Life

sorry but this = ridiculous.

Take a look at the world we live in and tell me it works well. If you honestly think this is something that works well you have some serious fucking issues.

Aug 10 2009 12:46AM

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@th1337

Pretty sure that would mean that the vast majority of people on the planet have serious fucking issues. Which, don't get me wrong, is probably the case, but not because they believe in capitalism.

Aug 10 2009 12:47AM

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roor

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Insane

Fuck America... Seriously why should i go to school, get good grades, go to college, get a good job then
support free loaders. When i could just drop out of school lay on my ass all day, leach off motivated hard working Americans, who provide me with welfare, free health care and what ever else the Democratizes (lazy *****RS) can think of next.

Im begging to think that poor people are the smart ones....

Aug 10 2009 12:49AM

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@th1337

On that note, potentially cogent point approaching: I have heard estimates that passing this bill could lead to the rate of inflation doubling over the next decade. I am not sure if this is true, but if it is, yikes.

Aug 10 2009 12:51AM

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@th1337

Yeah, that sounds like the life alright. Living from welfare check to welfare check and spending a lot of time in the hospital... Damn, where do I sign up for that sweet deal?

Aug 10 2009 12:53AM

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860

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That was such an uneducated spew of vomit all over the screen it was hard to process. Go do that life style and tell me how much the government supports you

Aug 10 2009 12:54AM

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No Life

They probably do have serious issues which arent related to "believing in capitalism" at all... However, just because they believe in capitalism doesnt mean it works.

The majority of the population of the world is poor and hungry and dying way too soon because of capitalism.

Aug 10 2009 1:44AM

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No Life

So because he choose to go into the profession of saving human life he doesn't have the right to be compensated for it? Everyone deserve to be given fair value for their time and effort it is theft to assume that they shouldn't be given that value and theft is the most basic of crimes.

Aug 10 2009 2:20AM

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No Life

Have you ever heard of an inflation protected security? Also why would I invest my rainy day fund in an account that I thought would be volatile? Clearly I'm not going to be buying mortgage backed securities with this money, its a savings account not a hedge fund.

It feels weird arguing with people that don't know what they're talking about, not everyone because clearly there are people on both sides who know a ton and we just have different view points and fundamental beliefs but a lot of people are just kind of stupid.

And privatizing is such a silly idea I mean why should the government be taking money from people then invest in the stock market and promise they would give them a little more back when they're old? Why not just let people keep their own money and use it how they want to?

Aug 10 2009 2:28AM

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thelizards

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dude your fucked

Aug 10 2009 2:30AM

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No Life

We don't live in a capitalist world or nation, what we live in is a corporatist world and nation where there is a ton of federal and state control of business through various means regulations being on of them and also a huge amount of corporate (large companies looking to put up barriers to competition) influence in government. Lets look at two cases.

1. The Federal Reserve System, one of the key jobs of the Fed is to control what is called the Fed Funds Rate. This interest rate set by the Feds in various means sets the interest rates for interbank lending that is lending between banks which happens in large amounts every day. In effect though the Fed funds rate controls interest rates throughout the entire economy ie. when the Fed funds rate goes up so do mortgage loan rates and when the Fed rate goes down so do the rates on capital loans to businesses.

Now to understand how this is government influencing the market you have to understand that an interest rate is a price. When you take out a loan you promise to pay it all back plus the interest, the interest rate on the loan determines how much the plus interest part is, this is basically the price you're paying the bank for their lending services. So when the Fed which is mostly controlled and influenced by the federal government controls interest rates it is engaging in price fixing on one of the most widely used prices in the country, that is interest rates on loans.

2. This is a much easier example and really needs just one word LOBBYISTS. The amount of money that large corporations invest in lobbyists show just how much they use the government (laws, regulations, taxes) to make money for themselves. I really don't think this one is to hard to figure out.

So if you still think we live in a truly free market capitalist society after reading these two examples, get back to me because there are a whollleee lot more of them.

Aug 10 2009 2:41AM

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No Life

Well there are really only two ways to pay for this "health care reform" that will be costing upwards of 1.5 trillion dollars. One is to borrow the money which could happen but is unlikely since the deficit for this year is already record breaking at 1.5 trill (interesting same number right?). The other way is to INFLATE the money supply by printing more money to pay for it, which would yes cause inflation to rise.

Aug 10 2009 2:50AM

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cfox

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i agree with pretty much on every post you make on this thread.

Aug 10 2009 2:58AM

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Living in a totally free market Capitalist society is just as much of an idealist view as it would be to claim that Communism works on paper.
The reason everything is so fucked up is because people want more money whatever the cost. So surely having a healthcare system that isnt based around profit is a good idea, as people wont be getting screwed over for the sole reason of making the company more profit, rather than saving their life.

Aug 10 2009 10:18AM

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No Life

Okay I think this debate is basically over, none of us are going to change our opinions and we are all firmly entrenched in them.

I think it comes down to that I believe that the United States federal government was set up for the purpose to protect private property rights (from over reaching states and from foreign threats) and for precious little else.

Others believe that it was set up to violate private property rights for the "public good".

If I may just point out that this over arching "public good" that all you kids are so enamored with was used as an excuse by dictators from Mao to Mussolini to Stalin and Hitler to massacre millions upon millions of people. I can promise that crimes like these have never been perpetrated by a small government seeking to protect property rights. You may think that I'm using hyperbole but I'm not the concept of "common good" is a murderous idea.

but yeah I don't expect my opponents to understand full or agree with that above statement, but it is what I believe to be fact.

Aug 10 2009 11:30AM

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It really is a BS argument that youre making.

Just look at countries like Sweden/Norway or most other places in Western Europe and you'll see that having socialized healthcare =/= dictatorship + everything going to shit. It in fact = much better standard for living for everyone pretty much.

Aug 10 2009 11:39AM

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twintipteles

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Yeah man, I don't know what I'm talking about. Remember when you started this thread about how that shitty article should prove definitively that universal health care was the devil, and then conceded to my point that the article was completely misinformed and off base?

Privatizing social security is a terrible fucking idea. Outside of your idealized and totally unrealistic capitalist state in which people are fiscally responsible, it would never work. Are you aware of the amount of consumer debt in this country? And you really think small government deductions towards retirement are such a bad idea? Again, tell me about how great our current financial situation would be had we privatized social security under Bush. Till you answer that quit dodging the question and own up to the fact that your views are based on personal greed and the twisted rationalization that equality and fairness means everyone standing alone and if that means starvation or death of disease, so be it.

Touche on inflation protected securities, but its still absolutely ridiculous to assume that your precious HSA will metastasize faster than your tumors.

Aug 10 2009 11:49AM

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No Life

People don't read what I say

"And privatizing is such a silly idea I mean why should the government be taking money from people then invest in the stock market and promise they would give them a little more back when they're old? Why not just let people keep their own money and use it how they want to?"

Bush privatizing SS would have been aweful and a bad idea without the economic crisis. I think SS is a bad idea because I would much rather have that X amount of my paycheck every month to save for things in the future (like an HSA!) rather than having the money forcibly taken from me under penalty of law and then used by the government for god knows what (it isn't put into the social secruity trust fund that's for sure) with them promising me that I'll get some of the money or maybe all of the money or maybe a little more back once I'm a certain age that they mandate. Basically all SS does for me is to let my money be controled by someone else, why would I want that? Instead why don't I just control my own money, my own life, and my own health care I'm a functioning adult for christ sakes and the government doesn't think I have the wherewithal to control any of those basic things. It just pissses me off so much.

Aug 10 2009 11:58AM

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No Life

Okay I'll concede that it is hyperbolic to equate socialized medicine with dictatorships (though control of the medical system is just another power these dictators did have).

I shouldn't have made that argument it's inflammatory and takes away from my point of the dichotomy of our ideas that being.

Supporters of Socialized Medicine

Feds=Redistribution mechanism for "common good"

Against

Feds=Protectors of private property rights above all else.

Aug 10 2009 12:01PM

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twintipteles

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I interpreted your quote as e sarcasm in support of privatizing social security instead of abolishing it all together (relatively similar options from my perspective.

Look at all your posts, they are all about you and your property. Great, you probably could take care of yourself barring catastrophe. We get that. What you don't get is that much of society cannot or at least needs some help, and you certainly would too if you hadn't been born into such a fortunate situation. You have done nothing to convince me that your views are nothing other than greed and rationalizations. Do you really think that taxes make it impossible to achieve wealth in this country?

Aug 10 2009 12:26PM

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