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Healthcare Rationing

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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
http://www.wizbangblog.com/content/2009/07/26/ezekiel-emanuel-deny-coverage-to-elderly-and-disabled-for-the-greater-good.php

If that article isn't motivation enough to reject socialized medicine than I don't know what is.
Aug 8 2009 12:20PM
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shawnrohrbach
Posts: 56 - Karma: 10
Actually, I kind of figured this thread would dissolve into racism, but that's to be expected.  By the way, our health system is so good we are behind Cuba and tied with Slovakia for infant mortality rates.  Those who can afford insurance live, those who can't die, and that's why we are 29th in the world for infant mortality.  Is that the new benchmark for good? 
Aug 9 2009 2:50PM
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Midwestjibski
Posts: 1676 - Karma: 77
^ how is that racist. I am simply saying Obama is a socialist.  I would say the same thing about a white person. Did i use any racial slurs? no. The joker isn't even black. and can you tell me anyone who is denied healthcare when they are having a heart attack and go into an emergency room? No. They don't just say "Oh you have no insurance so we are just going to let you die." They actually save the person and then tax payers pay their bill.  And millions of the un insured are illegal immigrants.
Aug 9 2009 2:56PM
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Midwestjibski
Posts: 1676 - Karma: 77
The Obama administration and liberal Congress isn't dumb. They know that national healthcare isn't good. They just want government control.
Aug 9 2009 2:58PM
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cjgncjgn
Posts: 3023 - Karma: 21
Okay this may be the last time i get into this, mostly because NS is not up to the level im used to. and your education system indoctrinates you with lies

I am a 3rd year politics major, so its not like im just talking out of my ass.

1812 Canada was not officially a country, hell to be fair it wasnt until Trudeau (1960's) that Canada completley seperated from Britain.

Britain did win the war, unless by the same logic the USA won Vietnam, The USA tried to invade for Canada's valuable resources and was fought back to the border, im sorry but thats a win in my books. I dont know how you can call a standstill us burning your capitol buildings down.

There were these people called UEL's (United Empire Loyalists) that left the USA to fight the USA on Britain/Canada's behalf. I am a descendant of these people.

Not to mention our Mohawk natives scalped and razed your people.

I cant believe how many lies your are fed in your system, but i guess your country is stupid enough to believe that Iraq can be a real threat, and North Korea.

But the basic fact is you got your ass handed to you in 1812 and now you lie about it in schools, and pretend it didnt happen, just wait soon you will do the same with Vietnam

But sure continue to say these things, I will enjoy my free healthcare and the fact that my country is not internationaly despised for an overzelous military industrial complex that uses the death of people to support its economy.

If any one else here has any formal education i would love to see their comments.

(as for the general thread)

if socialized medicine is SUCH a failure, why do most of the countries that are higher than the USA on the WHO's ranking, have socialized medicine, riddle me that?
Aug 9 2009 2:59PM
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noparking
Posts: 1123 - Karma: 50
it's b/c chances are they're to dumb and don't know enough about the topic to be able to have a mature debate, so they have to resort to making claims that you're racist. It's on page one of the Democratic How to book.
Aug 9 2009 3:08PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,142
Ironically, this has actually been the republican assumption throughout this whole process. There are legitimate arguments for why the health care package being proposed is a good idea, even why single payer is a good idea. There are legitimate arguments for why it isn't a good idea or why it wouldn't work for the US or why it would cost too much right now. Instead of having that debate, the right has resort to making shit up, basically lying through their teeth about "rationing" and euthanizing babies and handicapped kids (that Palin sure is a class act). I saw a house member-R on TV yesterday implying that Ted Kennedy's bill was designed to kill Ted Kennedy. Seriously.

None of this conspiracy bullshit is true. They are assuming you're too dumb to read and understand the bill, so they're just lying about it and expecting you to take their word. And they're right; many of you are too dumb, something like 40% of america is either illiterate or barely literate (below a 4th grade reading level). So, rather than actually debating what's going on, this works better. Rile up the morons and send them to town halls not to ask questions, but to shout and scream and drown out the other side.

That's democracy, ladies and gentlemen. Sorry, idiocracy.
Aug 9 2009 3:26PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
Im still waiting for one person to answer this question.
Aug 9 2009 4:28PM
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shawnrohrbach
Posts: 56 - Karma: 10
OhmyBosh, I am not going to challenge your statement; I agree with you (except for the War of 1812 part; another time on that one) I worked in Canada legally for two years and had better health and dental care for those two years than I have ever had with some of the largest, best known private insurers.  What most of these posters do not have is the experience of being sick or injured, and they will find out how crappy our insureance is in the States when they experience this.  I worked for a gentleman in Seattle for 8 years as his general investment manager.  He could have bought a hospital with cash at that time let alone pay for his own medical.  He had a well known private insurance company coverage for catastophic care, and after being hit by another driver, ended up paying 95% of the $350,000 hospital bill, and it irritated him so much he sued, and after finally paying out another $100k to attorneys, was able to recover $100k from the insurance company, and then they dropped him and he got black listed, so he's on his own and now has to pay for everything out of pocket.  He has cancer now, and in 2 years, if he lives and if his dwindling funds survive, he can get medicare. Hmm, socialized medicine might actually save his life. What's missing in this debate on NS is the experience of going broke after needing catastrophic care thinking you were covered by insurance.  When the young NSers who are so adamant about private health care start to have children, they will discover the ugly truth about privately funded health care, especially in an economy where fewer corporations are offering complete health care packages.  In my last position, a fellow worker made $125k per year.  He had four children.  The dedcution fom his paycheck for his share of the company health care plan was $26k per year.  His deductible went from $300 per incident one year to $1,000 per incident the next.  In essense, he is paying 98% of his health care out of pocket in addition to paying a share of his health care coverege at work.  This is great? 
Aug 9 2009 4:58PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I answered it when I responded to your post.

"I also don't trust those WHO stats because the numbers used to make those stats are taken from each government about their own systems not from outside analysis. Therefore countries like cuba can say they have a lower infant mortality rate than the US but only because they don't measure the statistic of infant deaths until after infants are 6 months old.  Not to mention the practice of aborting most infants who will be thought to be a burden to the system."

That is why another poster above thinks that more infants per capita die each year in the US that in Cuba which is a ridiculous claim.


Aug 9 2009 7:27PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I actually just read the wikipedia article on the war of 1812 in which it said neither side one. I don't remember being taught a great amount about the war in school, regardless I like to educate myself about things instead of trusting other peoples word for it.

This is a telling quote about your grand English victory
"Thus, the war ended in a stalemate with no gain for either side."

In fact the only land concession that occurred from the war was the United States gaining a small island in Lake Eire, Carleton Island. So I guess you can call that winning if it's that important to you...

And by the way I am a 3rd year Liberal Arts major specializing in International Politics and Economics, " so its not like im just talking out of my ass."


Aug 9 2009 7:32PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I plan on starting myself a Health Savings Account as soon as I'm off my parents plan (ironically they both worked for the feds) so that I don't have to mess with insurance companies and so that my money is making me money instead of being taken every month by insurance companies or taxes. Actually the thing I like least about the Obama proposal is that it would force me under penalty of law to buy insurance and I would be fined or jailed if I choose not to, and had a health savings account instead.

So hahaha won't it suck when I am able to pay for the medical care I need latter in life because I realized early in life that medical care is very expensive and that I should start saving for it before I need it.
Aug 9 2009 7:36PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,142
I think as a 3rd year liberal arts major, it might behoove you to learn the distinction between the words "won", denoting victory, and "one", which is a number.

The war of 1812 was fought between the USA and Britain, though a large proportion of the soldiers who took part on the British side were in fact born in Canada (Upper and Lower Canada have existed for a lot longer than Canada was its own independent nation). As for who won the war, you're right, no significant land gains were made. But remember that the war was an invasion by American forces. So let me ask you this question:

If your country invades my country, and my country not only repels the invasion, but counter-attacks and burns your capital city to the ground, is that what you'd call a "stalemate"?

Anyway, that's just a fun argument to have with 'murikans who think Vietnam was their first military failure. But it has nothing to do with health care reform and really nothing to do with anything relevant to the world today. As it stands, Canada and the USA are bound together so closely that either one would be absolutely fucked were it not for their economic partnership with the other.
Aug 9 2009 7:38PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
That's an impossible statistic to compile but I would venture to guess that at least 95% of ER cases were at least somewhat preventable.

The doctor should be able to care for me because I respect him and realize that he is a highly skilled person who has worked very hard for what they can do and that this hard work deserves to be compensated. The doctor can choose to treat the poor man out of compassion and I could even CHOOSE to pay for the poor mans care out of compassion, but when the poor man assumes that it is my RESPONSIBILITY  to pay for their care and the government then takes away my CHOICE to be compassionate and FORCES me to pay for their care that is where I draw the line. There is nothing moral about force ably taking money from one person (taxes) and giving it to another (redistribution).

"it's not by your own life choices that you've landed in the circumstances you're in. "

That statement is highly flawed it is by my life choices that I will have the resources to pay a doctor (not right right now because I'm still on my parents insurance for another year) and it is by their life choices that they are not able to pay. Unless you are physical unable to make decisions for yourself, like children or the handicapped almost all people are  in the position they are in, in life because of their "life choices".
Aug 9 2009 7:45PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I'm just going by what the article said which called it a stalemate and we did achieve many objectives which we set out to achieve. We gained greater control of our territorial waters and of the southern seaboard, also British support for the Indians was greatly curtailed. 

I'm really not that pro US I think fighting aggressive wars is a terrible thing to do. I was just calling that one kid out for calling Charmander an idiot and then saying a patently false statement like "Canada won the war of 1812".

And I have no idea why I said one instead of won, how silly of me.  
Aug 9 2009 7:49PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,142
See, this is certainly a political distinction, but it doesn't seem tenable. Why not apply the same rationale to policing? Ie, why should poor people assume it's your responsibility to pay policemen to prevent them from being beaten up and robbed? Surely you could set up a system that only allows people who pay into a crime insurance plan to receive assistance from the police, couldn't you?
Aug 9 2009 7:51PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Ohh and this

I love you Canadians really I do, if I could live anywhere else besides Colorado of Washington it would be up in B.C. so don't think I hate you guys because you live in a beautiful country full of amazing people.
Aug 9 2009 7:52PM
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shawnrohrbach
Posts: 56 - Karma: 10
Yacht, I am beginning to figure you out.  You are mouthing the opinions of your elders and you are not thinking for yourself.   Ok I can accept that; most people in this forum still say the same words they hear Dad say at dinner, and that's fine.  Now, riddle me this.  If "socialized" medicine is so bad, then why won't the Republican Senators and Congressmen (and their freedom loving aides) simply refuse the government subsidized (100%) health care they receive?  Why don't the elderly who hate socialized medicine get off Medicare?  Why won't hard core war vets who hate socialized anything (and damnit fought for freedoms) get out of the VA Medical system?  Simple. It works.
Aug 9 2009 8:02PM
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860
Posts: 2930 - Karma: 166
Yo I got taught in an American school and we did lose that war, please stop pushing your uniformed opinions on people, you really have no clue what your talking about. Saying Health Care is a luxury is one of the cruelest things I've ever heard, do you have a fucking heart kid? What happens when you get cancer and you pay out of pocket? Will it take that much to finally realize that raising your taxes a little and saving hundreds of thousands of lives in America is worth it? I don't understand how you can be so ignorant and naive, realize that the American government is not always working for you, they'll go for their own selfish goals in a second over yours, take a history class and get learned, you know nothing about how the world works.
Aug 9 2009 8:14PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Actually I rarely talk to my parents about politics and differ from them considerably on a number of things. My mom is a Palin conservative for example, I think Palin is a fool and would be terrified if she was ever president. I have been interested in politics all of my life and have been an ardent libertarian since age 9, both of my parents are republicans and I have never once even considered being one. And  people will never not take free money that is why congressmen keep their health insurance and why seniors take medicare even if they don't need it. By the way the congressional health plan that congressmen recieve isn't socialized medicine I don't know why you would think that.

Also MEDICARE DOES NOT WORK it is a HUGE burden to society Obama even knows this. Medicare/aid are two massive unfunded mandates that are putting our federal government deeper and deeper in debt each year. Both are severly broken and DO NOT WORK I don't know how else to drill this into peoples heads so hear is a quote from an MSNBC article about the issue from a few years back.

"A looming MedicareClick for larger image shortage is seven times the size of the one that Social Security faces and nearly four times the entire federal debt. It is not being addressed by President Bush and Congress, and, to some, that is just as well.

Social SecurityClick for larger image, which Bush has hoisted atop his domestic agenda, is $3.7 trillion short of what it will need for benefits over the next 75 years, under the latest federal projections. Medicare, the health care program for the elderly, must find an estimated $27.8 trillion."

That doesn't sound like something that works, did you read that the shortage that Medicare will face is 4 TIMES the national debt!

Aug 9 2009 8:37PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I'm not pushing my opinions on people ITS WHAT THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE SAID AND IS ESTABLISHED FACT!

I do plan on paying out of my own pocket (ie. a Health Savings Account) in the unfortunate event that I get cancer, I also plan on doing things to prevent me from getting cancer like not smoking and not getting a ton of sunburns and having routine check ups for different cancers when I reach the right age.

"realize that the American government is not always working for you, they'll go for their own selfish goals in a second over yours,"

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'm saying.
Aug 9 2009 8:42PM
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kepler.
Posts: 8761 - Karma: 139
This sounds eerily like my household.
Aug 9 2009 8:54PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
1. people can become poor without it actually being their fault.
2. something being preventable and something being caused by oneself are two completely different things.
3. someone's health is not something you can use to garner profits with
Aug 9 2009 10:06PM
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860
Posts: 2930 - Karma: 166
dude, we lost the war son, get over yourself. Second so after all your great precautions you still get cancer, now what the fuck do you do?
Aug 9 2009 10:24PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
What is wrong with profits? The pursuit of profit is what brings innovation, that isn't my opinion it is a FACT. Don't you want people to want to innovate in order to improve your life, especially in the medical field where it is obviously most important?

A majority of poor people have countless opportunities to better themselves and don't. Go drive through a trailer park and count how many satellite dishes you see. I bet you'll see a lot of them, don't you think that they could be using the high monthly fees that they pay for satellite tv to pay for catastrophic insurance? Poor people really don't have to be poor, they can work hard and save money, even working low wage low skill jobs you can bring yourself out of poverty in time by saving and making good decisions.


Aug 9 2009 10:33PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
Youre numbers are a little off

47 million uninsured
14 million qualify for government programs, but do not sign up for them.
10 million are in household of over $75,000 and could afford it if they wanted to.
12 million (at least) are illegal immigrants

So This 47 million uninsured goes down to about 11 million, and this is still including those people that are healthy and dont want it and are in between jobs.

I think youre right on the assumption that these people wouldnt be paying much in taxes for this (they earn under 75,000).
Aug 9 2009 10:39PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
yeah really... think of all the medical devices and drugs that have been created by some bastard trying to turn a profit. then think of all the high paying jobs that bastard created...

Let's be blunt here--we are not a family with legal obligations to support one another.  We are a nation of free individuals whose only hope in getting along lies in respecting the rights of our neighbors--including those who simply wish to be left alone."

----Jason Lewis
Aug 9 2009 10:42PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Just read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812 and it says specifically that "Dude, the war was a stalemate son".  I don't care how you interpret it, I care what the facts are and what an encyclopedia article says about it. 

Now what the fuck do I do? I pay for it using the HEALTH SAVINGS FUND that I have been putting money into my entire life knowing that one day I would fall seriously ill and need a lot of money to pay for the expenses to treat the illness instead of spending all that money all willy nilly on whatever I want assuming the taxpayers will pay for my treatment for me. It isn't that hard of a concept all you have to do is BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF and not think that others are obliged to take care of you just because you're alive. Some people physically can't be responsible for themselves and society should do everything they can to take care of these people, but besides them people need to take responsibility for their actions.
Aug 9 2009 10:42PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27

Canada's obesity is pretty damn close to American levels..go look it up.

I enjoy free healthcare as well, it's nice but having experienced American healthcare as well, I would have to say American is better. I like Canada's for the fact it's free..and for a cheapass like me that means something. American is better service, better doctors. Just better care in general. I guess you get what you pay for..which in Canada..is nothing.

Aug 9 2009 10:43PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
you realize that dire health needs tread a thin line of coercion?  When your health is on the line, and its life or death, if profiting off of this need were ok, the doctor could charge you anything.

and there are plenty of people who live the best they can without any luxury and still don't have insurance. how are you looking out for them?
Aug 9 2009 10:46PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
This is not a fact. Its true in some cases, but the innovation comes mostly in the case of useless products made only to make more money.
People make things in order to make a profit, not to benefit society. Sometimes these things happen to cross paths, but that doesnt mean that people wouldnt have technological breakthroughs without the incentive of money.



You seem to ignore the fact that healthcare insurance providers routinely fail to provide healthcare for people because it costs them too much money. You fail to look at the other side of the argument.
Aug 9 2009 10:46PM
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neutralzombie
Posts: 8629 - Karma: 606
canada has both, no ones out of business, and people are doing fine.


get over it.
you guys are no worse than war vets in the who thought everything commi was the devil.

Aug 9 2009 10:51PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i honestly hate to be a bitch about this. but we do have private charities in this country. granted many have a religious tie to them and i know how NS hates all things Judea christian. however. where is it assumed that your shortcomings in life are my problem? 

shit i dont think this thread has even touched on how much money a government option could cost...

the argument that we need government competition is such a bullshit argument IMO... if the government is so great at competing then why dont we have government gas stations? why not a government option of walmart?
Aug 9 2009 10:52PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
Nobody is talking about how Nancy Pelosi called all the people at townhall meetings nazis, saying they are bringing swastikas to these meetings. (the only swastika there was, was one with a NO sign over it like a no smoking sign to say they dont like facism). The liberals are much closer to nazism than conservaitves. Nazis were for big government. conservatives are for small government. Doesnt mean liberals are nazis. They just need to stop with all these baseless claims and lies.
Aug 9 2009 10:52PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
This is true, I don't know much about people being denied care by health insurance firms and have never seen any statistics about it, all I've heard is anecdotes about it. Like how often does it happen and it what situations? Do patients have legal reprieve to force the insurer to pay? Does it often happen because patients misinterpret or don't fully understand their coverage, or because of deceit by companies?

Regardless some people being denied claims for some things by insurance companies doesn't sound like a good enough reason to REQUIRE BY LAW that I have health insurance. Or many of the other reforms that are purposed in the current legislation.


Aug 9 2009 10:53PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
could you remind me how much money canada spends on a military. or even what canada's budget is?

o yeah, thats right America is the worlds police and that does infact cost money... we also hold together things like the UN...
Aug 9 2009 10:54PM
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charmander
Posts: 10636 - Karma: 370
yeah, i just guessed on the numbers.
Aug 9 2009 10:58PM
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shawnrohrbach
Posts: 56 - Karma: 10
wow.  i was told by a very wise girl friend not to argue with people who foam at the mouth, so we're done, dude.
Aug 9 2009 10:59PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I've said this in other threads about health care and Minnesota just touched on it, but I am fine with paying for other peoples care as long as it's not assumed that it is my RESPONSIBILITY to pay for it and the money to pay for it isn't FORCIBLY taken from me (taxes). I would gladly give to a hospital that provided care for the poor in fact I would think it would be immoral not to, but it is also immoral for me to force others to give, if they don't want to that is their decision and they can burn in hell for it.

Your first statement shows that you have no grasp of free market economics. Unless you lived in an area where there was only one doctor and you literally could had no way of going anywhere else for the care you need, this situation would never happen. If one doctor told me he would charge me $1,000,000 for something that was clearly not that expensive I would just go to another doctor and he would assuredly not charge me that much. Unless all of the doctors in an area are colluding to control prices and you have no way of accessing another area to receive care this situation would simply never happen.
Aug 9 2009 11:02PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
The IMF, The World Bank.......etc
Aug 9 2009 11:03PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Umm I guess? I was just using the caps for emphasis, it's not like I'm mad about an argument on NS.

But good job disqualifying yourself using an Ad Hominem attack.
Aug 9 2009 11:04PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
WINNER.

if i CHOOSE to support someone through charity. its my decision. its not the governments. its funny how so often rich people are always assumed to be such horrible citizens... well none of the rich people i know are the cold hearted greedy bastards theyre made out to be... 

the power of choice... i like it.


o yeah if you ever have the chance to talk with someone who has lived in the UK i highly suggest it...  its not the bed of roses the US media makes it out to be....
Aug 9 2009 11:08PM
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860
Posts: 2930 - Karma: 166
Your really twisted man, you should take a step back and see how much of a self centered ass hole you are. I doubt you would dare say any of this anywhere off the internet considering the rest of those compassionate human beings would stomp you for being such a fucking prick.
Aug 9 2009 11:12PM
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neutralzombie
Posts: 8629 - Karma: 606
is that why there's so much discrepancy in the un now?

UN is as much a good idea as communism, and socialism. in practice, not so much, since people are so obsessed with greed and power.

btw, you are in a recession because of how much you've spent on military, amongst other things.


and what this has to do with medicine, good question jen.
Aug 9 2009 11:12PM
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860
Posts: 2930 - Karma: 166
If your rich you can fucking afford to give a little more, not all poor people are the scum you see them as you ignorant hypocrite
Aug 9 2009 11:18PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
enlighten me o great one...


my point, the US already spends a SHIT TON OF MONEY. like a whole shit ton, then you multiply it by 5 then you have our budget. what does the US have that very few countries have? the most powerful fighting force on the planet. these things cost money. does canada have as many LARGE expenditures as the US? i dont think so...

o yes feel free to explain to me why we are in a recession.  maybe we will agree, maybe not. but im ready for the discourse...


o btw we dont actually run the whole show at the UN, just pay for it. :)
Aug 9 2009 11:20PM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 171
London, England, born and raised... its where i spent most of my days, chilling out getting free healthcare when i needed it and i never had any problems apart from waiting a bit longer.

When anyone i knew had serious ailments that needed immediate care, they would either go to the ER and get it taken care of pretty fast, or pay for a private doctor to provide equal care to the public hospitals but without the wait.


You fail. The UK system is not perfect, but it works a helluva lot better than the US.
Aug 9 2009 11:21PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Are you serious that advocating Individual Responsibility is twisted? What do you believe in, because it is what I have believed my entire life? I expose my beliefs to anyone and everyone I meet many times people commend me for them. I have never once been threatened violence for them. I engage in public forums at my college and express ideas like these in class all of the time and many many people agree with them.

If think that I should take care of myself and it is not others responsibility to take care of me makes me a self centered asshole prick fucker then you are looking at the proudest asshole prick fucker on earth.
Aug 9 2009 11:21PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
shortcomings? like when someone, uninsured, gets hit by a car and needs emergency services -- that's what we were talking about. But this is not something you're going to change, everyone has a right to the ER regardless of the size of their wallet.

now what you might have an argument with is whether it is cheaper and better to take care of someone via the ER or through a physician's office.

as for private charities, you actually think they have any where near the resources to cover america's need for health care? Some how you can rationalize paying for the army through taxes, how about you extend that same rationale to health care. Think of citizens' health as a matter of national security.

moving on to government run gas and other commodities,  you've got to know that we have massive gas
subsidies that keep the price of gas low... i don't think you have a problem with this practice.
Aug 9 2009 11:22PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
did i say I WAS RICH? far from it.


tell me why its their problem? go ahead and try...

im not saying you shouldnt give, however i am drawing a distinction between voluntary charity. and being robbed at gunpoint.
Aug 9 2009 11:22PM
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