Smaller film companies need to raise capital

You gotta weigh up their main objectives. Some of these guys may have other jobs ect and their film company is sort of on the sidelines. In addition prehaps not being bothered about earning them big bucks and do it just for the love of the sport. Although that being said investment of large deals of money could help them, but at this current moment in time it could potentially be a wrong move.

In my opinion, the point of a smaller or am film company is to be like a gateway for riders to progress into bigger film crews. They get seen at a young age in am movies and eventually they have big name film companies wanting them to shoot with them.  I don't think smaller companies focus on their production budget and special effects as much as the riding.  This is just my opinion though, I would like to hear from some movie producers in here.

gets better and better every year...go scope the old level 1 movies like balance and second generation then check out where they are now, same goes for poor boyz. aj's on the right path and the money will come to 4bi9 in time, and in the mean time, he will still absolutely kill it with whatever he can muster up.

yes

Its harder to get sponsors to give money for movies than youd think. Especially with the economy. Personally I havnt received an ounce of money for any of my movies.

Like jeff said above. It takes time to build a base then companies will find and invest in you.

double pits to chesty

Taking out a big ass loan means we have to pay it back... with the money we don't make.  It's an industry, and I feel like 4bi9 does a decent amount of advertising.  We just need to get one big sponsor on board that will actually give money for travel.  All it will take is like $6,000 to make the movie infinitely better, but we've never gotten that much in the last 3 years combined.  Ideally having one corporate sponsor like Monster or something that can crap out 10K would make all the difference in the world.

nice, loans... the american way. and loans are really fucking easy to come by these days, right?

this is the way things are in every part of the film industry.  There will always be bigger guys and little guys.  The people that can be the most progressive are the ones who have no rules or sponsors to listen too.  They will also have the least money.  As they suceed or fail to make interesting or quality movies, they will move up and down the ladder. 


also you fail to take into account companies like warren miller and TGR which I could be wrong but I definently think they make alot of money.  Warren miller movies are like extended product placements now.  Remember that one like 2 years ago that was sponsored by jeep and they had like hilarious slow mo shots of the jeep driving throughout the whole movie for no reason

Nomensteven shares my thoughts

Say 4bi9 got another 10k - do you think that it would generate another 1000 sales?

Not even the big guys make much money. The only company that has ever made legit money off ski movies is Warren Miller Entertainment, and they're long past their prime.

I think these smaller film companies need to try to sell themselves more. There's other possible income other than the final movie itself. I think that a company like 4bi9 could approach resorts about doing occasional park updates for the resort for say, $500/update, which is very much realistic. The resort would supply tickets and everything. So basically a crew like 4bi9 could bring a camera or two and a couple of riders and just ride the park and make an edit for the mountain. Doing these updates would take very little time and would be something to do during any down time. Just a thought. Most resorts have an absurd, absurd amount of money budgeted for marketing, so $500 here and there is nothing to them, yet could add up to a lot for a smaller am film company.

You, as the owner of an am film company would probably have to get liability insurance to make this happen however, or well, to get the free tickets at least. But that's pretty cheap, and while you're at it you should probably get insurance to cover your video equipment if you don't have it already.

this is a very insightful point (but what else does anyone expect from nomen?)

i think one way of doing this would  be for a mag like freeskier upping their yearly subscription rate in exchange for weekly podcasts from all the contests as well as film shoots. they could even do a "monthly recap" type thing were it was all packaged and available for dl at the end of every month.

obviously the logistics of getting filmers out to all of these places would have to be worked out, but if chug and the traveling circus guys can be everywhere all winter long, freeskier could too. they could even do it in conjunction with a team or specific riders too, i.e. one month it is updates from the line team, the next from armada, then solomon, etc...

as long as the content was legitamately worth the raise in price for a yearly subscription this could be a way to ease into the arena.

web casts will never be preferred over video premieres, cause premieres are a way of getting pumped for the upcoming season, networking within the industry and seeing all your friends from the mountain you haven't seen since last season. obviously these smaller companies must weigh their options in financing projects, but there's a reason why it's called financial leverage, it's one of the most effective tools that a business can utilize to promote rapid growth...and really, how risky would a $6,000-$10,000 loan be for even a small company? now very. they could do some webcasts and make most of the money back on advertising sales on their website alone. either way, nows the time to support smaller, industry changing companies.

It's really as simple as this: If you limit your production company to freeskiing, you're limited to freeskiing sponsors and budgets. The only way a newer smaller company will thrive, is to branch out and build the production company as a whole. What does your production company do that others don't. It really ends up being all about distribution and appropriate content. MSP and TGR for instance have, or have had successful TV series broadcasting to millions. On top of that, all the major players have been around for a long time with a proven professional track record. Why would a company give $50,000 or even $10,000 to a small company that only the smallest of small niches views? they wouldn't. So it requires that the company becomes legitimate through different means: commercials, sub-contracted work, TV, etc.

try that and see how many mountains are even willing to give free tickets...

I do all the event coverage for Killington so I'm on really good terms with the marketing guys there. I'm planning on branching out and doing event coverage and updates and stuff of that nature for other resorts this coming season so I've been talking to them about it. They say that they're more than happy to give vouchers out to film companies, but they have to have liability insurance. Without the insurance they won't give out tickets, because by giving you a voucher it means that they accept responsibility for your actions and any injuries, not you. If you have the insurance it means that you take responsibility for you and anyone with you's actions and injuries.

They have a budgetted amount of tickets for vouchers, they plan on giving tickets away every year. Plus, its not like its a free ticket, you're there to provide a service for them, not just to ride. Why would they make you pay to provide a service for  them?

If you go about it professionally it's very much doable. You've just got to handle the film company as for of a business than a hobby.

Yeah. Someone will have to confirm this, but a few years ago I heard TGR was a non-profit organization.

a mountain would not pay $500 for that, not realistic.

Well yes, but there's a lot of gray area i guess and the liability insurance is a no fault way of doing it. You can sign waivers and all that but apparently they still prefer you to have liability insurance if you're up on the mountain filming.

and to the person who said $500 is unrealistic, it's not, not unless its a tiny mountain. I mean, $500 is probably a little on the higher side but for a crew like 4bi9, who has a lot of pulling power, it is probably do able. They just need to market themselves to the resort and explain how a park update by them would help the mountain generate more people to the parks. But mountains have a lot of money to throw around. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it and get in the right mindset. To me, $500 for pretty much no hard work, and work that I would willingly do for free, used to seem absurd. But it really isn't. Work like that is very specialized and it's something one of the marketing guys isn't going to be able to pull of by themselves. Therefor they're willing to pay money, and with the kind of budget they have a couple hundred is nothing at all.

Hahahahaha, this thread is every bit as hilarious as those "what do pro skiers make" threads.

so you know how windells advertised "4bi9 week at windells" and all that jazz??? well im sure that everybody and their mother would automatically assume that would mean we would be able to ride there for free. WRONG... Windells wouldnt stretch the few bucks it would cost to get us the 8 lift tickets we needed to get up there... we ended up hiking up there, which only inspired us to get up to windells for one day to shoot a dirty, crowded, non-private big jump.... i mean they couldnt even move the goddamn salt bags for us. People take smaller companies like 4bi9 for a ride because they feel as though we're easy to take advantage of us. Not to mention, to top all of it off, they used the 2 most banger shots we got the whole trip in their own fucking session update...

Perhaps throw around wasn't the right term. I guess this isn't really worth getting into a big argument over though, but I'm just going to say that from my own personal experience a resort is willing to pay a couple hundred for an update. I'm not saying that just anyone can walk up to a resort and get it set up, but it is possible. And i think certain resorts are beginning to acknowledge that growing niche market that we are. I'm not saying pull to the masses, but many resorts have park specific websites now and that would be where our niche would be looking and where a growing am film company would have more pull than one of the marketing guys doing a half ass job. That couple hundred can be justified by one bratty kid who sees the video and convinces his parents to make a trip there for the weekend. We're not talking figures for big business, we're talking a couple hundred here and there.

and yes, the costs are huge every year, and yes they are escalating. But they still budget out money for marketing, and if you can get in with the marketing people and get them on your side of things, chances are they'll get you some money for some work that may seem extremely easy.

I mean, maybe my personal experiences aren't indicative of how this works elsewhere, but this is how i understand it to work from the bit of work I've done.

well damn. I'm sorry, that's definitely a shitty situation. I think that that's just a case of needing to get a contract set up before you let them advertise your name. You shouldn't have allowed them to do that unless they were giving you tickets. I don't mean any offense by that either, they definitely just took advantage of you and that's not legitimate at all.

but damn. I'm getting ripped apart in this thread. I didn't mean this to be a big controversy I was just throwing out some stuff I've learned from personal experiences with this. Like i said right above me, perhaps my views are skewed, but this is what I've come to realize, at least where I am.

ya but how many of these companies can hit it big time? its like now days you have your poorboyz, msp, rage, and level 1 (forgive me for forgetting some other ones i'm sure i did) but in the future its not like you can have a big 20 on top or something.

Oh... A contact was established.  I think 4bi9 was actually approached by the situation.  The contact just didn't pull through.  It seems like this year 4bi9 got taken for a ride a few times.  PEople use the name to make a profit, and don't pay in return.  ha, and as I type this i'm looking at the 4bi9 Week banner on the right..... Take it down already! 

And yeah... getting in touch with a ski area is harder than you'd like.  The dude who films most of the 4bi9 movie, AJ, wasn't even able to get a free pass to PC this year.  I feel like the amount of exposure PC has gotten in the past two or three years from the 4bi9 edits alone (hundreds of thousands of views on youtube, etc) would be grounds for giving away a free season pass that has a very, very small value.  It's a service that the company will have to do absolutely nothing different by giving out. 

Whatever... it's been said but you don't do anything in the ski industry because you want to make money.  The further into it I get, I realize the sketchier it is.  You do it because you love it. 

And Galin..... don't take any of it as hate.  This is actually one of the more wholesome discussions i've seen on NS ever.... like, I don't even talk about this intellectual of stuff in most of my college classes.  I'm enjoying it, and seeing other people's take/perception on Am films. 

A lot of people think that 4bi9 is just rolling in skrilla, and has all this pull... when in reality it's  a struggle for us to get lift tickets to a public park....muchless a private shoot. 

i like smaller films because they are low budget, and keep it real. when things are different, things are different

I meant contract, not contact, sorry. A contact can easily flake. If you set up a contract then you make sure you're getting the things you need before they get what they need out of you. I say this like I know what I'm doing, but in reality I'm actually in the middle of a large project that I should be getting good money for but I never set up a contact beforehand so I'm probably going to get shafted when it comes to getting payed. Fun stuff. I'm trying to learn though and I've got people in the industry who are mentoring as to how it all works and I'm just trying to help everyone else out as well.

and ya, Andrew was telling me about that. Definitely shitty, but i feel as though getting a season's pass is difficult no matter what the situation is. Day passes should be a different story though. I've talked to the guys at Killington about it before, i even actually talked to them about 4bi9 filming there because Andy and AJ, or Napier, i forget who it was, wanted to come ski for the day. They told me that if they have a copy faxed to them of the film company's liability insurance, then they'll pretty much just hand out vouchers. Obviously it's not something they'll do all the time for you, but if you approach them in the beginning of the year and let them know you want to film there in the winter, they'll set you up. That's how meatheads does it with Killington, and thats how they like it to be done. I can only imagine it would be somewhat similiar with other resorts.

I film skiing because i love it, but i also realize that i need to make money to keep up the expensive hobby that filming is, so i pick up projects in the summer and do event coverage and updates in the winter. It doesn't take too much time away from filming skiing and it's been a great experience for me, and I don't really have to have a real job, which is nice.

I don't know AJ's relationship with the guys at PC, but i think if he wants to try to finagle a seasons pass he's gotta buddy up with them, and maybe offer them some content for their website, not just content that will be floating around the web. Killington offered to set me up with a pass this winter, but that's because i do all the video work for them and I'm on really good terms with all the marketing guys. Which i suppose is perhaps why my view is skewed?

In conclusion, i think to be taken seriously you've got to handle yourself like an actual business. I'm not at all saying that AJ doesn't take 4bi9 seriously, mearly saying that things like contracts go a long way. There is actually money out there too, you've just got to be creative, and make a lot of friends. If you can make one really great contact at a big resort, chances are they have contacts at other resorts. I feel like I'm lucky starting out my work at Killington, because it's near the top of the foodchain for resorts on the east. So a referall from the interactive or marketing manager there goes a long ways. If AJ can get in with the guys at PC and do an update for them, then maybe they'll contact other resorts for AJ and say hey, we've got these guys who will make a great update for $x, here's their contact info. Then you're set for some easy money. I mean, it's certainly not a business model for an am film company, but it's a way for some extra income during downtime.

But i guess that wasn't a conclusion at all, but i think that's just about all i have so I'm about done here.

Sorry for the essay. I don't even remember what I wrote but that's a bad thing so I'm out for the night.

finbow nailed it. the only way to make your production more legit is to prove that you can do more than just a ski movie. the ski industry has wicked little money. the right people have bunches of money. play your cards right and youll get somehwere man. i have all the faith in the world that aj will get somewhere. he kills it, for sure! but it really isnt just so easy as to approach a mountain and asking a few bills for a park update, any joey can do that if they know how to manipulate some shots.

People look at MSP and TGR for what they are now as examples of established megaproductions in the world of ski entertainment. What maybe you don't see or realize is they were at one point the 4bi9's of skiing, circa early-mid '90s. For fucks sake they started making movies before professional skiers were even being paid a living, let alone movie companies. Certainly a lot has changed since then, but what it comes down to is perseverance and ingenuity- just like any other business. Poorboyz, Level 1, etc.. all worked down the same path to arrive at this point.

Great thread really puts into perspective the struggles we all go thru as filmers. The amount of work put in and money spent id rediclous. But its worth it in the end seeing your product. If peolpe only knew the struggle that happend to produce that product.

i understand this point... and a few people have tried saying the same thing... but when a camper pays 2500 for a week and a half, Windells can afford to buy 8 tickets for a day. I know that T-line has nothing to do with Windells, but if Windells is going to advertise something using the name, I feel as though it would only be fair to recieve something for it. Obviously I was wrong.

I guess it kind of gets to me when a company like 4bi9 is trying to make something out of themselves and gets nothing but used.. Level 1 and PBP both had shoots and windells.. both private and i have an iching feeling that noone from either crew (filmer, photogs, or athletes) had to buy tickets. and before I get shit for saying that, I realize that 4bi9 is not on that level yet... but there's only one way to get there.

^this guys got the right idea. also, most independent companies aren't actually companies, you cant just make some stickers, screenprint some tall tees and buy and HD camera and boom..your're a company. There's a lot of overhead to be something legit and to leverage resorts/camps/manufactuers (real companies) to partner with and accomodate you.

Real companies get sued when they use music from Lil Wayne and Janis Joplin. But that's the sweet thing about independents...it's underground, different, somewhat janky and they film with their friends and actually have way more freedom than the big guys. The leverage isn't there when they role into a place but the make due, create some magic and HAVE FUN. It's what keeps the big guys on their toes, creates new talent and drive the industry. Not to say MSP, L1P, TGR, ect don't have fun when they make a movie but most of the riders in those films are there b/c their sponsors shelled out lots of $$ to get them in, it's a business whereas small independents are more a really productive hobby that has the potential to create more oppurtunties in the future. I've experienced it now on both ends of the spectrum (being not legit and now work for a very legit company) so my rant is definately coming from somewhere. Good thread.

I know for a fact one of those companies spent an absolute ton making one of those private shoots happen. Windells and Timblerline is a big exception, the way they operate at least in the summer, is a very different process than other mountains that you would deal with in the winter (haha and actually PC with it's current management unfortunately does the same shit, hopefully that will be resolved in the near future).

if only it were so easy.

4bi9 week was an epic fail, they got no tickets, no private shoot they were only allow to ski at windells, it was pretty ridiculous.

Agreed.


I'm surprised no one has really thrown out the buzz works like "branding" in this conversation. And yeah, this thread is probably one of the better ones I've read on NS recently.

I understand that, it sucks and no one should have been taken advantage like that. I was just bringing up the point that 4bi9 had that good of an impression on Windells to be advertising 4bi9 through Windells. Some people pay ridiculous amounts of money to advertise at Windells, and 4bi9 was right there.

I must respectfully disagree man.

well, as we all know, expanding brand recognition by utilizing multiple media platforms, all with differentiating target audiences contributing to the individual revenue streams, positions a company with a strong foothold in their desired marketplace, leaving them with the ability to capture a larger market share through company growth due to the aforementioned increasing revenue streams, thereby allowing them to eventually diversify each division into a seperate entitiy within a parent organization which would allow for greater horizontal control of the marketplace as the vertical control continues to increase.

haha i used to have a job where i would actually say things like that to customers and they would give me large sums of money.

2bi4 is funded by mike stack

I agree, the sport does need more crews like 4bi9, Clownschool, and Traveling Circus... They are perfect the way they are.

i only read a few posts cause some of these are almost essays but what it boils down to is,
1. no one wants to give Am companies sponsor money
2. the Am companies have so much other shit on their plate besides their Am production that it is hard to try to get the footage you want, edited it all by a deadline, and still have time to contact and convince a sponsor to give you money before you release your trailer so that they're in it.
3. having no sponsor is fucking great. unless you actually need a shit load of money to do what you want to do. this is because with sponsors, you are forced to make your movie a certain way. wont name names but they're are some fucked up tricks that were done by a someone in a certain movie coming out this year, but those tricks wont even be shown because that skier isn't sponsored by the main contributing sponsor so they want their riders in the movie more.

The economy sucks. Just do what you love.

this.
Loans are hard to get these days, especially large loans.

this is one of the more fucked up things that ive heard happening this year.. i know the situation your talking about it and that shit is just down right wrong. I do understand why things like this happen, and thats why you can't let the money get to your head..  I'm sure because of this, some of the best shots of the year will be found in the bonus section of some movies..

it happens every year

haha very true. I can't even think of anyone who has sold out in the ski industry. Including Plake, Simon, Jon etc. There is a big difference between selling out, and making what would be considered outside the ski industry a normal business move. Sheckler for instance, completely changed how people viewed him because the reality show, negatively for most people. That's selling out... When success truly takes away from your ground image just for the purpose of more people being drawn into the show, meaning more possible money. Pastrana though? I'd say he's selling out a lot less than sheckler. His image is the same as it always was. People like him just as much, if not more etc.