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October, 2024

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YAY FOR AMERICAN VERSION OF A JIHAD!!!

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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
"Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld sent President George Bush top secret wartime memos with cover sheets that mixed Scripture and battle photos to cast the Iraq invasion as a holy Christian crusade.

Rumsfeld, not a man who wore religion on his sleeve, appeared to be trying to manipulate - or curry favor with - the Bible-quoting Bush..."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/05/18/2009-05-18_rummys_memos_suggest_a_crusade_after_all_used_scripture_to_prod_w_in_iraq_war.html

But we dont want to release some photos that would show maybe America is turning around and admitting their mistakes? and then we fucking wonder why terrorists want to kill us...
May 19 2009 12:02PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59

May 19 2009 12:08PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
You dont think that the pictures would make them hat us more? They would be outraged to see what we did. It would be terrible to release the pictures. This is one of the few good things that Obama has done. They dont give a shit if we apologize. These people fucking hate us. They are going to hate us regardless. Appeasement will not work, and historically it doesn't work. We just need to kill these motherfuckers. Chamberlain tried to appease hitler. Shit wasn't even close to working. The idea that the terrorists will just say, "Oh America, you are sorry for torturing us. And your sorry for having freedom and all these other things we hate. we'll call off our next attack and we'll be allies." yeah fuckin right. These people want to destroy us. They want to destroy america. They want to destroy freedom.


As for the religious shit. One memo doesn't mean the entire war was a crusade and certainly not a Jihad. We aren't killing all the innocent people here. thousands of people were getting killed by saddam. He put them in giant plastic shredders feet first. They dont need to worry about that dictator anymore.
May 19 2009 12:40PM
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BravoWhiskey5280
Posts: 4020 - Karma: 520
....
May 19 2009 12:56PM
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cbl718
Posts: 553 - Karma: 10
We would be so much better off if we weren't a "christian nation".
May 19 2009 1:12PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
so good thing it wasn't just one memo then right?

when scripture is cited atop almost every memo, with a picture reference to the troops or military activities of the day previous, it seems wrong to me...especially when it is coupled with the President saying that it was God who was directing his decisions


on a separate note

 will you admit that there is just as much difference between terrorist extremists and the majority of the Muslim world as there is between the members of the Westboro baptist church and the average American church goer?   I agree with you that there are terrorists out there that everyone would like stopped, but the way you describe the situation, you make it sound like the majority of Muslims are terrorists, or extremists, and that they all need to be eradicated, which is not true at all.

What we need to do is show that the US, collectively, does not think that all Muslims need to be eradicated, and that they deserve, and have our respect. It's not so much our duty to persuade the jihadists you mentioned to love America, rather, our goal should be to convince those that are a part of the overarching community that we do not have radically different ideologies, and that we, as Americans, as westerners, are willing to listen, pay attention, and respect the differences that do arise in our implementation of our commonalities.  Respect gets respect (geeze where have i read this one before?*), and by achieving this with the moderates we can curb the flow of new extremists.


*
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May 19 2009 1:19PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
lol but im the liberal who wont ever criticize obama....


but my point wasnt really about the pictures, that was more of a side note. i dont care how many people saddam was killing, i dont want my president going on a FUCKING CRUSADE.
May 19 2009 1:40PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
also a jihad has nothing to do with killing innocent people... it has to do with killing due to religious motivation. which its looking more and more like thats what was motivating dubya
May 19 2009 1:42PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
motivating or justifying? i think the latter
May 19 2009 1:49PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
yeah your right.
May 19 2009 1:59PM
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TheBeardedOne
Posts: 2286 - Karma: 58
Grammar Police!

Yeah you're right.

Anyways.. that is kind of messed up that Rumsfeld fed that to Bush to make him feel like he was doing the right thing. Bush was a puppet, and made some bad choices as Commander in Chief.. but I agree with ATLskier in that it would be best not to release these pictures. It's only going to aggravate our relations even more and add to the hate that extremists feel towards us already. They will not listen to reason or apologies, and with that, we don't have much of a choice but to continue on the with the shitshow we are already in. It's like the Vietnam War, we can't pull out and we can't win. In the meantime, extremists in other parts of the Middle East, and World, are becoming stronger, more organized, and ready to retaliate. The whole situation is fucked, and once natural resources start running lower and lower the shit is going to hit the fan. Honestly, I can't see Obama doing anything to help the situation either.
May 19 2009 2:08PM
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Melvs
Posts: 15174 - Karma: 480
And why do they hate us again?

OH ya, we USED to underhandedly fund them to fight communists back in the 1980s (rummy, cheney, some other neocons played a role during this time as well, ironically enough).  Then that threat died out and we stopped supporting them and pretty much pretended like they were terrorists.  Well, now they are pissed.  I doubt we learned our lesson though.

Not saying they are right, by any means.  A lot of them are crazy fucking Islamic fundies who hate every other religion, but the movement definitely stemmed from the US ending our support.
May 19 2009 2:09PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
Sorry, somehow I thought it was one memo. I wish more information could be given about the exact number. It didnt say almsot every memo. It could have been 2 memos. I highly doubt almost every memo he sent Bush included scripture. That's retarded. That's really weird what the president said.


It's obvious there's a huge difference between the extremists and all the other muslims. I wasn't implying they were the same. I was talking specifically about that terrorists. I really dont think the normal muslims hate us so much. I am talking specifically about the terrorists/extremists. I honestly dont give a shit if muslims across the world dont respect me cause of my views, even though I respect theres. I care about the terrorists trying to kill us. Nothing is changing their minds. That was my point. they will try to kill us regardless.
May 19 2009 2:43PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
please stop beating around the bush talking about how evil terrorist are, and start addressing the fact that our president was fighting a war being validated by religion. thats just fucking wrong. idk how many memos it was exactly, ive seen several already though, and thats FAR to many. we are not supposed to be fighting holy wars.
May 19 2009 2:45PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
former president
May 19 2009 2:46PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
ok. fine.

I didnt even want to talk about the holy war shit. I was mostly talking about the pictures. I didnt want to talk about the holy war shit cause honestly I dont have anything to say. I havent done any research and I think more than one article is needed to have a solid opinion on this (for me). I just want more evidence, pictures of the cover sheets, context to them. Bush's reaction. The context to the quote he said. So Im undecided either way.
May 19 2009 2:50PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
theres pictures of 12 covers in a link on the page i posted under the excerpt.
May 19 2009 2:51PM
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Calrin
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 561
so killing lots of them is ok?
May 19 2009 3:01PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
we are killing hardly any
May 19 2009 3:05PM
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Calrin
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 561
ehhhhh no
May 19 2009 3:08PM
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sktrkdo7
Posts: 1920 - Karma: 182
actually dood the casualty numbers for innocent iraqis who have been killed is astronomical. do some research u knucklehead.

May 19 2009 3:19PM
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Bob_Gnarley
Posts: 1583 - Karma: 0
Would you conider the 9/11 attacks an act of Crusade from the muslims?
May 19 2009 3:23PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
yes.... so basically we are no better than the 9/11 attackers? if thats the comparison your trying to draw then yes
May 19 2009 3:25PM
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Smuffy
Posts: 4686 - Karma: 3,408
bombs only kill bad people right?
May 19 2009 3:28PM
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thelizards
Posts: 4042 - Karma: 43
religion sucks
May 19 2009 6:08PM
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smooticus
Posts: 1798 - Karma: 27
Win,  plus i dont think that because he put biblical references on the documents is that big of a deal, they were not meant to be read by the public, and were sent between two religious men. They also did not talk  about eradicating muslims, at least i dont see the connection.

As a liberal i hate to say it but this sounds like it was released as liberal propaganda to get people fired up about getting out of the war.
May 19 2009 6:20PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
it doesnt really matter that they were meant to be read by the public. a lot of things arent, that doesnt make them not a big deal. the problem is the fact that rumsfeld was quite clearly trying to further attach bushes religion to the war, giving him motivation to continue to fight. this is wrong in terms of the fact that the govt should not be fighting any war based on religious motivation or reasoning.
May 19 2009 6:43PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
I will try my hardest not to show how much you exasperate me.
May 19 2009 6:49PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
if you can honestly give me a legitimate reason why this is acceptable in the US government, a government that is supposed to be entirely and completely separated from religion, i will be extremely impressed.
May 19 2009 6:51PM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
Click for larger image

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that is all for now.
May 19 2009 6:51PM
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natedogg789435
Posts: 1177 - Karma: 9
it's a modern day crusade. honestly fuck'em all let em' die slow. and wen i say that i mean speciffically donald rumsfeld and dick cheney. 16 hours after the 9/11 attack rummmy said we need to get iraq. look what the afgans did to the commies they got them out. not to say the taliban was any better but violence is the catalyst for revolution.
May 19 2009 7:07PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
yeah, lets kill Bush and Condeleezza Rice and everyone else who was in Washington during the Bush years. They so totally deserve it.......go play in traffic.
May 19 2009 7:09PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
what an excellent rebuttal. full of fine evidence to prove your point.
May 19 2009 7:21PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
it's a joke, I have no patience right now and am post whoring like a stooge when I shouldn't be. Someone ban me, I should be outside, getting laid like Crazyasfuck did this morning, or did you not hear about that.
May 19 2009 7:25PM
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Mr.Panda
Posts: 17711 - Karma: 564
my rebuttal is better than your rebuttal.
May 19 2009 7:28PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
my rebuttal is so good, I've been working out. Shocking the glutes.
May 19 2009 7:41PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Damn I thought you were going to make a good post until you started saying "they hate our freedom" and "kill these motherfuckers". I am not advocating this memo was inciteful of a "holy" war or anything else that looks good on news titles.

Maybe a few and by few I mean a percentage of around .00000000005% Muslims hate America and want it destroyed and everyone who lives in it. However, for the overwhelming majority, they just want us out of their business. The whole reason (well a large majority) is because of our encroachment on the holy land of Islam. Is this a legitimate reason to attack a civilian target? Of course not. Nothing ever gives credibility to attacking people who have nothing to do with the rudimentary issues.

Funny you mention Saddam. We didn't invade Iraq when he was mowing down thousands of Iranian children with machine guns or scud missles. No we ENCOURAGED it financially because of Iran's actions in the 80's. Fuck them for taking our citizens hostage even though we installed a murderous authoritarian ruler. But seriously, if you are so keen on our mission in Iraq being one of protecting freedom and human rights, why are we not in the more important areas? Congo, Somalia, Uganda, Sudan, Pakistan (sovereign yes but when it falls it is going to really fuck the west up). We as a nation must admit Iraq was a mistake and stop trying to defend it's initial invasion. We fucked up. Something that cannot be comprehended in politics, but in public must be. Stop beating the dead horse. Iraq wasn't a mission of hospitality so stop trying to defend it.
May 19 2009 7:46PM
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Smuffy
Posts: 4686 - Karma: 3,408
^thank you.
May 19 2009 10:06PM
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