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Privatized Terrain Park - Thoughts/Ideas

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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Was wondering if this could work or has worked before. Feel free to input ideas/comments/help.

A privatized terrain park, owned and operated by one entity, on a hill owned and operated by a seperate entity.
For example, in my case the local hill is owned by the provincial gov. Could it work if they were willing to lease (maybe for free as it would have beneficial spin-offs) a separate section of the hill to a group interested in operating a private terrain park? The government is willing to put money into the terrain park, however, because of bad management the idea doesn't get filtered down to the ground level and we get left with a POS park. Here's how it could work (please feel free to fill in the blanks)....

Sources of Revenue:

- Sponsorship dollars first and foremost - Naming rights to park, banner adds on fencing, naming rights    to features. 
                 Question: How much do sponsors contribute for these type of things?

- Pass Add-Ons - Add on access for private terrain park to season passes and day passes.
                 Question: How much would this typa thing go for? i.e. $79 season, $14 day? (adult season rates about $400, and day ticket rates about $45)

- What else?


Expenses:

- Insurance - Likely be purchased as an add-on package to go with the mountain insurance.
                Question: How much would this cost? Anyone in the insurance biz?

- Cat Time - Building Features, Maintenance, etc.
                Question: I have absolutely no idea how much cat drivers are paid? Also, what would you expect for maintenance and build time for a mid-large size park (a week/month/season)

Snowmaking - Maybe not on the west coast, but on the east its essential to having a large park in early season.
                 Question: Anyone know a cost breakdown for snowmaking? Per qubic foot for bonus points!

Rails/Features - The shit you actually have to buy to make a nice park.
                 Question: Cost to make rails? Boxes? Keep in mind you can ammortize it over the lifetime of the feature. How long do features last?

Random Expenses: Guy's salary to check park passes, fome fencing, etc, etc.
               Question:  WHAT ELSE????


Some other points to ponder: How big of a population base would make it feasable? Would the mountain be willing to give you certain breaks (cheap cat time, freefencing and supplies, etc) due to positive spinoffs (increased interest in the mountain, increased lift sales, etc)?


+ K to anyone who contributes. I'm really curious if this would work.
Apr 2 2009 7:20PM
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WillieStyle
Posts: 241 - Karma: 16
as for the cat time, that cost a pretty penny, and you need a skilled driver with a crew of rangers that know what the fuck they are doing. I did it this year at my mountain(be a ranger) and you have to be very specific to the drivers about what you want.

 Maintenance is a real bitch too. you have to check everything at least once a day, rake, shovel if necessary, re-shape kicks for rails at least 2-3 times a season.
Apr 2 2009 7:30PM
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Skiingslikewhoa
Posts: 426 - Karma: 12
I like how you actually put work into it but it seems like the places were this would most benefit (where their is a large ski base and solid mountain) there already are pretty decent parks.
Apr 2 2009 7:32PM
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Pee_and_Ski
Posts: 1869 - Karma: 57

not a bad idea, but it would have to have a privite lift just to make life simple. on the down side making money could be a huge problem.

Are you thinking like COC or windells in the summer? that sort of setup

Apr 2 2009 7:32PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Say 250 man hours at $10 an hour for diggers/rangers not including cat time? 
Say another 200 hours at $10 an hour for a guy to check passes. Ski patrol can/would do most of the checking as well, but you need a guy there during peak times and just for security/insurance purposes.

$4500 so far
Apr 2 2009 7:35PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Right now i'm thinking east coast. Mostly being specific to my mountain, but trying to see if the business idea could hold its own at other locations. No summer sessions.

We have an advantage here where the mountain is owned by the gov. provincial govs love to pump money into ventures that will generate employment and create spin-offs.
Apr 2 2009 7:37PM
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Squid.
Posts: 1904 - Karma: 23
Buying a legit metal flat rail/box is normally like $300- $500 bucks. I bet mountains get them for cheaper though
Apr 2 2009 7:43PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
a lot of mountains build their stuff in house.
Apr 2 2009 7:45PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Say it costs $500 per feature (averaging out biger and complex and small and simple). Park has say 12 features.

$6000. We're up to $10500.  Still dunno about cat time , snowmaking or insurance.
Apr 2 2009 7:47PM
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OGHolliday
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 2,430
where do u live on the east?
Apr 2 2009 7:51PM
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skithesprings
Posts: 9086 - Karma: 1,349
some companies charge upwards of 45 a foot so most mountains build their own for cheap. that means welders and painters in the summer, more man hours to keep in mind
Apr 2 2009 7:52PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
No offense, but you are sort of clueless about employee costs.  take what you pay them hourly and triple it for budget purposes.  Trust me, no don't trust me,  do a bit of internet research on small business budgets and then fill in the blanks.

It's a great idea.  but it won't work click click lickety split...

Here.  this is the best resource out there for information related to small businesses and if you are in the states the cash is flowing for solid business plans from the US Gov -  Good Luck!

Start here:
http://www.sba.gov/smallbusinessplanner/plan/index.html

Apr 2 2009 7:54PM
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daringharry
Posts: 1627 - Karma: 12
Lets talk snowmaking. A professional snow gun(i.e. lenko fan gun) is easily 4000+ Then you have take water and electricity into account. Those things use a ton of energy!  Ok so lets do the math. We want about 5-7 snowguns per run, and about 15 runs. SO saying the snowguns are about 4000 each. SO thats about 36000 right there. And then theres matience.
Apr 2 2009 7:56PM
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Silence
Posts: 16030 - Karma: 150
These and staffing are areas which will make up basically all your operational costs.

You would need to have some type of lift which needs to be manned and paid for.

Plus the owner of the mountain would need to make money out of you.

The running costs of a ski hill are astronomical.

This is why season passes are $500+..it simply isn't viable to offer them any cheaper.
Apr 2 2009 7:56PM
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Silence
Posts: 16030 - Karma: 150
Outside of the ongoing water/electricity costs, to initially install the guns (piping/wiring) is where the cash is at
Apr 2 2009 7:57PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Sorry, I'm speaking in terms of my mountain. And I know exactly what they get paid as they are unionized. $10-13 per hour. Keep in mind I said I had no idea about cat driver costs. The rest I know.

And for above. welders/painters, lets just include that in the cost of the features. So say $750 per feature instead of $500? Thats and extra $3000, so we're up to about $14000ish
Apr 2 2009 7:58PM
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Silence
Posts: 16030 - Karma: 150
Honestly - the features in a terrain park would make up
Apr 2 2009 7:59PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Lift would be the main lift. add park pass add-ons. No need for separate life Owners of the mountain are gov (see above where I explained^), I mentioned a $0 lease (you need to think in terms of government. They have no reason not to. They don't make a profit on the hill, they break even if lucky, this is a good way to generate some spinoffs)
Apr 2 2009 8:02PM
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daringharry
Posts: 1627 - Karma: 12
Wait what about lifts? Unless you're buying an old mountain with lifts. Soo buying the actual resort would be at least 1.5 million.
Apr 2 2009 8:02PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Thanks, where do you get 15 runs though? I'm talking 1 run. maybe 1.5km long. So lets say 5 snoguns
= $20,000

$34,000 total. Need snowgun operating costs + cat time + insurance.

Nobodys mentioned anything about revenues yet.
Apr 2 2009 8:06PM
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daringharry
Posts: 1627 - Karma: 12
oh wait i fail i didn't read the OP carefully.
Apr 2 2009 8:07PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
I'm not going to argue with you...  Please stop.... 

What they get paid and what it costs you to pay them are 2 entirely different things.
Apr 2 2009 8:07PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7821 - Karma: 21,850
Season passes at Marble Mountain Newfoundland, where he skis, are $160 Canadian for a student pass bought pre-season and I think $320 for an adult pass. The prices are so cheap because like he said, the resort is run by the provincial government, and it actually loses money, but brings a lot of people to the area.

aoe, you might want to e-mail Richard Cote at Coastal Jibs, http://www.coastaljibs.com/ to find out how much features would cost in this area, if they aren't built by mountain staff. (you could also e-mail Shannon Howlett, at patrol@skimarble.com. I think he is partly responsible for getting the jibs made, and I think he knows how much the current ones were to make. I'm also assuming you want everything in Canadian dollars, and most people on here will probably give you US figures.
Apr 2 2009 8:07PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!    stop everyone stop! if you can get a fan gun for 4k I will buy a hundred of them.  jesus.


snowguns by themselves are approximately 10% of the cost to make the freakin snow.   please people just stop.
Apr 2 2009 8:10PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
True. But 2-3 times The amount ($30 per hour) isn't even close, and totally unrealistic in our economy in good times, let alone bad. Keep in mine this is a very rough estimate. Just for interest sakes. I'm not going to wrap this up in a power point and bring it to the mountains development board.
Apr 2 2009 8:11PM
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daringharry
Posts: 1627 - Karma: 12
I should go crawl in a hole shouldn't I?
Apr 2 2009 8:13PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
haha, no you shouldn't. In fact $20,000 is an OVERESTIMATE for snowmaking equipment as most of the equipment could be loaned/leased from the mountain, whos snow guns are idle most of the season. $20,00 in NEW equipment is more then enough.
Apr 2 2009 8:15PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Wow, good info! thanks
Apr 2 2009 8:16PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7821 - Karma: 21,850
Marble, as you know, has portable snow guns, so you could probably work out a rent/use deal.
The only way for this idea to work would be to start out small, and maybe still be affiliated with the mountain, but have some people that know about terrain parks be in charge of that area, and gradually become more and more independent of Marble, you could work out some sort of yearly plan for this more than likely.
Apr 2 2009 8:18PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Yup, exactly what I was thinking. And I just mentioned above about a lease/loan on the portable guns.
Apr 2 2009 8:21PM
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OGHolliday
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 2,430
I think once u get a base down you will only need the guns for building big features like jumps. I dont think you will actually have to use the guns too much. Also if you are doing it in cordination with a local mountain they would probably let u borrow a gun for less cost.
Apr 2 2009 8:22PM
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Pippin
Posts: 4846 - Karma: 661
Okay what Papa is saying is besides paying every employee a salery you have to pay a bunch of insurance costs and other extra costs per employee so it ends up costing 2-3 times the salary per employee.
Apr 2 2009 8:26PM
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MEGAZORD
Posts: 4531 - Karma: -7
Yuo do realize that ski mountains are really only funded by real estate. 
Apr 2 2009 8:39PM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15951 - Karma: 9,451
fuck that who needs a lift when you can have a t bar
Apr 2 2009 8:46PM
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garettnorthey
Posts: 3049 - Karma: 173
Ok so at my hill, we have portable snowguns. We had 1 maybe 2 guns going for 72 hours on one area of the hill, the water is pumped out of the river and the supervision/moving of the guns was volunteer work. the bill came to around $4200. So there is a rough outline. BTW there may have been loaning rates in there too.
Apr 2 2009 9:05PM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15951 - Karma: 9,451
this might not be totally related but at smuggs they have a certain amount of water they can use each year for snow making
Apr 2 2009 9:20PM
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Aaaron.
Posts: 11817 - Karma: 903
money.
Apr 2 2009 9:23PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Not mine!
Apr 2 2009 9:25PM
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Dylan_
Posts: 9824 - Karma: 1,403
kid, no offense but your trying to hard
Apr 2 2009 9:27PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Insurance Is included under a separate category.  Other then that you just have Ei/Cpp/WC, training is already covered as they would already be mountain employees. Either way, we are only talking about the guy that checks passes really. Most of the park crew here is volunteer.

And in any cast, I suspect, wages would be covered by gov. Since our mountain is unionized they would likely insist to have union employees there.
Apr 2 2009 9:33PM
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daringharry
Posts: 1627 - Karma: 12
and you're not trying hard enough.
Apr 2 2009 9:33PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
id say to have a private park that was accesible by lift or wtv and to build it, and keep it in shape, would cost at least 100,000$
Apr 2 2009 10:00PM
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SeanK
Posts: 702 - Karma: 130
Why would everyone just ''stop''  people are voicing there ideas, some may be better then others, but you cant tell people to just ''stop'' what they are thinking/ talking about.  I think the overall idea is awesome, if you want some help try and contact someone at the Carinthia Park at Mount Snow.  Its a whole side of Mount Snow just for park.  I bet they could help you out. 
Apr 2 2009 10:08PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
member since 2001   I smell troll
Apr 2 2009 10:17PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Honestly, that's a pretty good rough estimate I think. 

Apr 2 2009 10:18PM
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Dylan_
Posts: 9824 - Karma: 1,403
yes i know that ive been around here for a while. more than what my profiles says i had an old account and browsed through. but i really don;t think this idea would ever happen. atleast at my hill
Apr 2 2009 10:21PM
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FoxtrotSport
Posts: 162 - Karma: 23
There's a private park up the road from me, closer than any of the resorts, it gets up and running at the beginning of March or something and goes into May until we run out of snow. 

http://www.kingvaleterrainproject.com/riderowned/

The way the liftys run it it doesn't seem like a hugely complex setup.  The run is only half a mile maybe, and they use a rope tow.

Regardless it's a sick setup, especially in May when it's the only place you can go to ride. 
Apr 2 2009 10:22PM
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Pippin
Posts: 4846 - Karma: 661
Are you serious! Why the hell do i live in Ontario
Apr 2 2009 10:24PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Very cool, thanks.
Apr 2 2009 10:28PM
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aoe
Posts: 2947 - Karma: 51
Good concrete info if it's accurate. Is that 72 hours of continuous use?
Apr 2 2009 10:33PM
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smooticus
Posts: 1798 - Karma: 27
Whistler has a semi private park, it the large features on the nintendo park.  I guess you are required to sign a release and to wear a helmet, when you do this they issu a special pass and theres a guy checking them at the top.

This isnt quite the same, but it does weed out anyone that isnt there to really ride the park. Also it keeps out little shredders that arent that good cause there parents would have to sign the release
Apr 2 2009 10:41PM
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