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Frame Rates

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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
Yeah Ive been on thread creating frenzy of late..

The last few days Ive been looking on the internet to the different types of frame rates. But I cant seem to find a good comparison between the types. Could anyone explain to me the benefits/disadvantages between 24p/30p/60i

I get that 60i and 30p are almost the same thing, but is one better than the other? Also what are the advantages of 24p? It seems to be the new fad, but I just cant see why anyone would want 6 less frames?

Also I have Vx2k right now, and could probably even trade it out for a DVXa, I feel fairly comfortable with my camera, but am planning on getting rid of it in hopes of getting an HD camera. Then I found this the DVX, could anyone give me a good price of what it should be worth, has low hours. Also how lost would I be if I switched cameras.

I know these are noob questions, but Im just trying to learn..
Apr 1 2009 1:34AM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,082
24p is so hot because its good for indy film makers, because 24fps is what film shoots at. It gives a more real life look, its something you learn to see but it definitely looks different and kinda cool. Not exactly something you want to use for skiing. 30p and 60i are both 30fps, 60i(interlaced) is 60 HALF frames, so one upper, then one lower, that when played at 30fps comes out to regular shot, but you need to deinterlace to make it look normal. 60i is what most to all cameras under 2000 dollars use. 30p is progressive, 30 full frames per second. I feel like 30p produces a better slow mo than 60i, but not sure if thats correct, ive never had experience with 60i. You only see 30p on HD cameras or really new technology cameras like the dvx. TRUE 30p is not recordable on tapes, its a huge complicated BS shit but cameras that record on tape that shoot "30p" shoot interlaced and deinterlace in the camera when recording.


The real advantage to 30p vs 60i is the conveniences of not have to deinterlace and the shot looks more realistic than digial like 60i looks, which once again to the amateur eye is almost unnoticeable.
Apr 1 2009 2:19AM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
DV tapes record SD footage at 60i, which means ANYTHING your camera shoots will eventually have to conform to this. The DVX has 24pA mode which is advanced pulldown removal, but I've never used it since I never needed to output to film, or work in a 23 fps timeline, even. This also means that any HDV camera out there is technically not high definition simply because it records to DV tape. What's the point of shooting "high definition" if your footage is converted to SD before it even leaves the camera?

24p is definitely a handy framerate to have. People always say you have to be SOOOO careful when shooting it to avoid strobing, but I personally think it's bs. As long as you can hold the camera smoothly and not make any sudden movements, 24p works fine. Even for skiing.

30p is so great because you can slow it down 80% in post and get amazingly film-like slow motion footage. I'd say that about 95% of my skiing footage is filmed in 30p mode.

and the DVX is the best SD camera money can buy. definitely hop on it!
Apr 1 2009 2:59AM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
i bought my DVX for a grand with extra batteries used.

basically 24p is the shit for shooting anything non-skiing or skiing if your doing very smooth/low movement tripod shots. it looks extra jumpy and shit if your moving too much. film is run at 24fps and it gives it a very different look.

30p is your basic for the dvx. good for mostly everything.

60i is interesting. to me it looks fucking awful normally. but theres this cool thing you can do with it. if you have footage in 60i (any low budget camera) take it into After Effects and interpolate it to lower fields, and conform to a 24 timeline. then stretch it to 200% and export it.

what this does is fills in the missing upper fields of your footage with the info from the second field captured, essentially turning your 60i into 60p which is fucking awesome for slowmo. unfortunately it cuts your resolution in half but its not THAT noticable if your only working for interenet video.

you cant do this with 30p.

heres an example of what im talking about





this is 60i interpolated to 60p then timestretched
Apr 1 2009 10:21PM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
So can any 60i camera do that? because my slow mo still looks interlaced even after I de interlace it..

also did you get a great deal on your dvx, but I am seeing them for a ton more than a grand, and what model just a dvx100/a/b ??
Apr 1 2009 10:35PM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
sorry its a dvx100p which is the first model that came out. thats why it was a grand. not much difference but theres way less fluidity in the manny zoom ring and the shitty thing is that the A/B models anamorph to get a 16:9 image while the P just crops. but oh well, HMC is on the way.

and as far as i know you should be able to do it iwth any 60i footage. you need after effects though, its not just deinterlacing.

message me if you want a tutorial on it
Apr 1 2009 11:51PM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
Can you explain what anamorph to 16:9 means.. also whats native 16:9?
Apr 2 2009 12:04AM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
well the DVX can shoot 4:3 aspect ratio or 16:9 because its SD

HD cams will always shoot 16:9


the DVX100P takes a 4:3 image and just cuts off the top and bottom sections to make it a 16:9 image while the A/B models squeeze the image so your getting more info.

its not a huge deal, i just hatge the idea of losing info like that thats why all my edits out of my dvx are 4:3 even though 16:9 loooks better
Apr 2 2009 12:19AM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
100b has better sensors. The rest are minor changes.
Apr 2 2009 1:27AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
whats native 16:9?
Apr 2 2009 1:38AM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Native is when the raw, unmodified footage has a 16:9 aspect ratio, as opposed to a camera that records with a 4:3 aspect ratio, then either stretches or crops the image to make it 16:9 (all SD cameras do this, if i'm not mistaken.)
Apr 2 2009 1:41AM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
banger
Apr 2 2009 1:50AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
Ok thanks guys, all 3 of you are at 10/10.. and I asked eheath this last night I believe, but after my art studio class is over I hope to drop my Vx2k and get a camera thats either a little less outdated and/or a step it up to HD. My budget will be around what I can sell my camera for so around $1000 +/- $200.. can you guys give me a good idea of what most of my options are? I know the hv20/30/40 line is decent, but I enjoy the bigger camera body with controls outside the menu screen.. ideas?
Apr 2 2009 2:00AM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
seriously get a used or new dvx if you can. best SD cam out there.

if you wanna step to a good HD cam and spend a bitta money...Sony FX1, Panasonic HVX or HMC150 used. on the more camcorder side.. HV30 or sony HC5, but their still single chip, 1080i.
Apr 2 2009 2:05AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
DVX may be my best option, HV30 would feel like a downgrade, and Im not sure I could afford an HMC of HVX.. eheath, that trade still stands! 

But AVCHD? I thought that format was struggling with compatibility for most editing programs..?
Apr 2 2009 2:12AM
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horner
Posts: 2439 - Karma: 1,578
Look for a Canon XHA1, you wont be disappointed.  They're going for really cheap used right now.
Apr 2 2009 2:15AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
ha If I had 3k I would consider it.. but for right now, Im hoping between $1000 and $1500..
Apr 2 2009 2:23AM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,082
Maybe a used fx7? They're 2000 new, so i bet you could find one for 1500.
Apr 2 2009 2:33AM
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horner
Posts: 2439 - Karma: 1,578
If you're computer and software can handle working with HD, look at the new Canon HFS100 that's coming out.  Or pick up a used DVX100.  Either way you can't go wrong.
Apr 2 2009 2:34AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
Yeah ebay has one for $1900, so I could probably find one on the forums for around $1500..

I guess sometime after my classes are over Ill get figure out my financial situation and look into a whole lot more, but Ive gotten some good ideas here and a DVX and FX7 look close to my range..

Ill also have to decide between handheld HD or a more prosumer level SD camera..
Apr 2 2009 2:40AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
I would hope my computer could handle it, 1 year old MBP with 4 gig ram and a 500 gig external..
Apr 2 2009 2:41AM
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horner
Posts: 2439 - Karma: 1,578
Forget the Fx7.  Take a serious look at the HFS100.  Small cameras are starting to pack a huge punch for the money.  Besides the small work arounds for editing avchd, the camera looks very cool.  Final cut will come out with an upgrade to work directly with avchd soon anyways.
Apr 2 2009 2:50AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
Hopefully sooner than later, and Im not sure if I want to deal with the headaches of avchd.. but I will look into the camera.. thanks man
Apr 2 2009 2:54AM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,082
Butbutbut it has a handle!!!!!???!!?!?
Apr 2 2009 3:03AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
but dooood, you can make those handlez with pieces of metal!



(because I have! gs-320 word up!)
Apr 2 2009 3:06AM
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h_bar
Posts: 1611 - Karma: 506
this.
Apr 2 2009 10:11AM
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.jr
Posts: 5313 - Karma: 356
bump.

also looking for a camera like a canon hf s100. Also the camera's 30p says it shoots in 60i then converts, is this typical for flash and will it be the same quality?

Also colors wise - 3ccd compared to cmos? How big is the quality difference between the two?
Apr 26 2009 12:11AM
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Jwenz
Posts: 8893 - Karma: 7,633
In regards to your CCD compared to MOS question. I was actually just reasearching this last night. From my reading at 2am i think i came out with that the processors in a 3MOS are digital where as the 3CCD are analog. There seems to be a complicated process for each one. And also from my reading it seemed like there wasn't a NOTICABLE difference. If you are looking to wait, the HMC40 looks like fire, but if you dont want AVCHD or w/e then that wont be the way to go.
Apr 26 2009 12:58AM
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