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Fair price for graphic design?

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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71
So I recently got contacted by a company asking if I wanted to do some design work for their 09-10 line after I had posted some of my faction ski contest design entries on NS. I won't name the company because they are on here and I don't want to make this more complicated than it already is.

After the initial exchanges, they requested I do a simple and basic design so I told them it would be around $100-150 because I figured I'd put about 3, 4 hours into them. Then, they email me about a week later saying they want one simple one and one complicated one. So I said fine, and they agreed that the complicated one would be worth more than I quoted them at first. We didn't really set a due date but we figured a draft should be completed in about a months time.

Another week or so passes and I get an email saying they've changed their minds and they want to cancel the simple one, just go with the complicated one with a royal theme, and because they realized their tight schedule they wanted it by the end of the week. Even though I had finished the draft for a simple one I told them that would be ok.

I worked my ass off during a hockey tournament to meet the deadline, working on my laptop on the bus and at the hotel finishing meals early so I could work on it. I somehow manage to finish it and send it to them, and turns out they like it. They also tell me the crest I designed and included in the graphics looked really dope and that they wanted to use it for their logo. They ask for a quote for all of this, and the next day I tell them this:

I want $250 for the product graphic design, 7 hours of work X $30/h + 20% rush fee, and $500 for the logo with full rights to them.

The next morning I get an email which pretty much said "wtf happened to the $100 quote, and $500 dollars for a fucking logo? You must be joking we could figure out something better. If the price of the logo doesn't go down, we'll cancel the order and just go with the graphic design."

They didn't say exactly that but that was the general idea. I reply, explaining that the $100 was for the simple design and that because they cancelled that and replaced it with a more complicated and time consuming design they are paying more, and also asked what they thought was a fair price for the designs.

Now the question is, what do I do from here? $250 for graphic design and $500 for a logo is really cheap, you probably wouldn't get that anywhere else I'm pretty sure. Are they just trying to squeeze me into an uncomfortable position and get the work for less or are they legit unable to pay for it? It is an up and coming company, started in 2008 based out of CO but already have a good pro lineup including Wallisch and Hornbeck.




----SPARKNOTES----

Is $500 for a logo with full rights and $250 for a product graphic design a fair price?
Mar 5 2009 1:48AM
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*Fujative*
Posts: 8554 - Karma: 183
I say thats fair. You did the simple one first and then they canceled on that but you still did that logo for them and put in time for it. Also since they uped to due date and your worked your ass off, $750 is fine with full rights. If shit really starts to hit the fan, say they have 48 hours to get you the money otherwise you will get legal action.
Good luck man,
Mar 5 2009 2:08AM
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*Fujative*
Posts: 8554 - Karma: 183
adding this in for a bonus.
Click for larger image
Mar 5 2009 2:13AM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15951 - Karma: 9,451
yeah it sounds fair to me. but honestly i probably wouldnt have asked for that much, not because its not fair but because thats just the way i am. oh and i think you might have given away what skis they are
Mar 5 2009 7:10AM
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Raoul_Duke
Posts: 584 - Karma: 17
did you get any of it in writing?  this kind of pisses me off, it seems like at most thy are trying to take advantage of you, and at least they have not done their research and have no idea what certain services cost. More than likely they just dont understand the costs and are not trying to squeeze you (I hope this is the case) sounds like you are sticking to your guns though.  this is why I think some  "Design contests" are sketch because some companys use them unethically (kind of off subject, not saying that's the case here). 

At any rate it is partly your duty to educate your client of the costs.  Explain the costs of the equipment you use, software, research time, developing ideas and concepts, thumbnail sketches and roughs, the time it takes to execute the design, revisions, etc. etc. maybe put all of this on an invoice show the amount of time and the rate of charge maybe that will help them understand the price better.  good luck let us know how it goes, i would love to see the designs too when they are out
Mar 5 2009 9:17AM
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drumbumocdp
Posts: 3229 - Karma: 1,098
id say thats more than reasonable. they would probably pay a lot more if they went to a professional to do it.
Mar 5 2009 9:49AM
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*Fujative*
Posts: 8554 - Karma: 183
for photography I do 2/3's
Mar 5 2009 11:03AM
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DANETRON
Posts: 6671 - Karma: 137
They are going to skate off with your work I bet too. 
Mar 5 2009 12:13PM
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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71

I don't think I gave away the company, cuz its not skis I'm designing for.Also I agree that they're probably not aware of the standard prices for this kind of work.

However what you have to understand too is that I'm just starting out as well, so I was really naive by not sending them a contract or anything. I'm 15 and I've just started designing on illustrator and photoshop about half an year ago, posted some designs for a comp on NS and got requests to design for a company. I was too stoked to think clearly, thus the shit fest now.

I've got some advice from my friend's dad who used to design for a snowboarding company, and I replied to the email by explaining why the original quote does not apply to this design, and asking for their opinion on what a fair price would be.

I guess I should just take the high road, stay calm and direct to the point and see where it goes?

Mar 5 2009 2:39PM
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Sfish130
Posts: 145 - Karma: 10
At this point, I think this is probably a good idea.


But what I'm wondering is how the company was unaware of the proper price for a design. Is this some sort of local t-shirt company? Honestly, you would think that they would have had some experience working with designers.
Mar 5 2009 2:57PM
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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71

I won't

you guys would know about this company, its not "big" yet but its marketing audience is pretty much NS but I can't say who it is

I guess it all depends on what they reply to my email

Mar 5 2009 3:45PM
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Ender
Posts: 2348 - Karma: 112
dont let them fuck you over.  they are getting a deal and half for that price compared to what a firm would charge them, especially to meet a rush deadline.  just because youre young and youre doing freelance work doesnt mean your work is worth less.
Mar 6 2009 10:48AM
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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71
they got back to me saying they'd like $150 for the designs.

I think I'm going to say $200 for the designs, and $300 for the logo if they throw in a couple of the products thrown in signed by wallisch/hornbeck?
Mar 6 2009 10:49AM
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marc_sncl
Posts: 612 - Karma: 16
try your best to explain why your work is worth as much as you said
Mar 6 2009 2:44PM
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JGP.
Posts: 2785 - Karma: 474
That is a very reasonable price you are asking, especially considering the time frame you had and the amount of work you put in.  Honestly, I wouldn't settle for any less.  Tell them that that is your price and if they can't come up with the money the don't get the designs.
Mar 6 2009 4:03PM
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RtC.
Posts: 1156 - Karma: 28
Don't be manipulated by the company man. You are the artist/professiona here, and your services deserve the respect. $500 for a logo that will last that company their lifetime and earn them thousands of dollars is absolutely nothing.

Do not undermine yourself bro, just because you are 15 and new to the business doesn't mean you should charge less. The work you have done for faction has interested them enough to contact you and they now deserve your purposes. Drop them an email now stating that they have no rights for the designs you've done for them until an agreement can be reached, you are then protected. If they use them, you sue. Simple.

You will learn from this though, it will teach you how to handle business in the future, contracts are key, working within reasonable time periods and organising your clients to work with you and not against you.

Money before services.
Peace
Mar 6 2009 7:34PM
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namaste
Posts: 69 - Karma: 10
yo maybe take a lower price but really try to get involved in the company. if its just starting up and you can get involved there could be a big check for you in a few years if they blow up.
Mar 6 2009 7:43PM
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freezed
Posts: 12973 - Karma: 500
don't cheapen yourself/the market. stick with your prices. sounds like they just don't know much about the industry. your quotes are totally fair. (assuming you did a good job and all the designs are professional).
Mar 6 2009 10:29PM
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VT_scratch
Posts: 8781 - Karma: 6,213
yeah this is what im thinking
Mar 6 2009 10:53PM
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Happy.
Posts: 1248 - Karma: 9
I gotta agree with this guy, it sounds like they are getting their way and getting a sick logo ( judging by the other stuff you have done) for cheap, don't back down.
Mar 6 2009 11:15PM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
When I work, I lay it out as so:

Set up a final price:
Generally hours of work estimated X 40$ to set a base price to go from. Then cross reference that with standard pricing for projects that are set by the Graphic Artist's Guild. You can find their up-to-date Pricing and Ethics book on Amazon. Figure out what I think is fair based on my time and the company/application of the project.

Establish Revision Terms:
Allow for 2-3 rough drafts that they must sign off on. If they want more, they pay more. If they change something after the first rough, they pay more. Set due dates, so you have deadlines and you are all on the same page.

Establish usage terms:
Logos are obviously going to need to be used more places, so you release all rights besides intellectual property, and charge more. A shirt graphic is going to be used on a shirt and anywhere that shirt appears (magazine add, website) , and so it costs less, but you include that if they want to chop up that up and use it as graphic on their site, you charge more.

Establish terms of payment:
I usually ask for 50 percent upon the receipt of the first roughs. 50 percent + itemized expenses (typefaces you had to purchase, stock photos you had to purchase) at time of project completion. If they are more than 60 days late on any payments, I start compounding a percentage of the final quote and adding that on every 30 days as a late fee.


Get all that in writing, signed and in your hands before you ever start work.


In your case, I think it's all completely fair. I wouldn't give any on the prices, screw them if they think otherwise. If they think that's too much, the obviously don't value designer's work.
Mar 7 2009 7:21PM
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Ender
Posts: 2348 - Karma: 112
such a helpful post, thank you
Mar 7 2009 7:56PM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
no prob

Get the Graphic Artist's Guild "Pricing and Ethical Guidelines" book for more. They have templates of use agreements and invoices in the back, copyright free that you can model your own use agreements after, and lots of other info. super helpful
Mar 7 2009 11:44PM
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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71
Thanks for a great post, really helpful.
I will get this sorted out and tell you the company, but for now I have to leave it in the dark.
I've talked to the guy again, and they actually don't have the money. No joke.
They were completely clueless to the prices of this kind of work, and while I was naive, they were completely oblivious. I don't think they're much older than me, probably in their mid 20's.

So, taking that into consideration, I proposed this. $200 for the strap design, and $200 over a period of time yet to be determined for the logo. Now I realize I've gone down a fair bit, but I really think its the best for both of us. They get to put a new look on their product without breaking the bank, (I mean they said that $500 was too expensive for them to pay) and I get to have my design out there, without just handing it to them; I mean what good is a design or logo if its just sitting in a file taking up space?

I legitimately trust they don't have big capital, since the guy told me he'd pay for the logo as soon as he started selling the product because he wouldn't be able to pay out of his lifeguard money if he wanted to pay rent and eat etc.

I hope this doesn't create a whole shitfest about if one should value exposure over money, (which you shouldn't in most cases) but I think it is fair for both parties and sometimes I think you have to change your stand depending on the situation as well.

Did I make the right choice?
Mar 8 2009 3:06AM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
I think so. I'm assuming you are either a student or just getting into it? building relationships with a company and building a portfolio are never a bad thing... but make sure to make it clear to the company why you are charging them less, and make sure they know that you should be charging more.

If you continue to do work for super cheap, you won't be able to pay rent yourself, and you are essentially de-valuing the whole profession. These aren't just my words, we talk about this in my classes.

Just FYI in the future, (and let your client know this) the industry standard pricing for a "Small Client" for a logo is 2,000-7,500$.
This is defined as:
"usual and customary fees for research and application of primary logo identity to all corporate materials including advertising, business papers, signage, and in-house publications; presentation of 3-6 schematics, final applications to stationary, implementation guidelines"

that's muddy info, but that basically means you design a logo they use everywhere, for everything. You deliver to them 3-6 different versions before the final, and suggestions of how to use and not use the logo.

if you are doing a comprehensive letterhead, business card, other stationary, etc. that's another 1,500-3,000$

basically you are cutting them a 90% off deal at the least. so make sure you get some more work out of them in the future for being such an upstanding guy!
Mar 8 2009 3:44AM
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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71
Yea I'm a student, I'm gr.10, 15 years old.
Honestly I'm pretty bewildered with all of this, its happening really fast and its getting big and confusing real quick.

I will for sure let them know the industry standard, I'm sure they'll shit their pants if they found out what I should be charging them. I also added I would like a few of the products sent to me for free with Twall, Hornbeck, Stepp, Martini and Walker's sig on them so hopefully that'll work out.

and I definitly want to get involved with this company, once they start expanding their product line it should get interesting as more work builds up.

Thanks for the great help so far, and I hope you don't mind if I ask a couple more questions along the way.
Mar 8 2009 4:17AM
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TWoods
Posts: 10014 - Karma: 8,386
go for it. my first legit contracts happened the same way, all fast and confusing. luckily, i one of my teachers at high school was a freelance designer, and he learned me up quick
Mar 8 2009 12:34PM
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1990
Posts: 1787 - Karma: 52
my guess is SagStraps.


Anyways: my threads for futher use of TWoods Info's


Mar 8 2009 2:33PM
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JGP.
Posts: 2785 - Karma: 474
...

I assumed the same, pretty obvious from your description and the riders.

Some really good advice in here from TWoods, and I hope things work out for the OP.
Mar 8 2009 5:33PM
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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71
yea it is, I just didn't want to name them just in case this turned ugly

but it looks like its going to work out and once I get the go ahead I'll post the designs up on here for the NS opinion

thanks for all the help and advice guys, I really appreciate it and +K if I already haven't
Mar 8 2009 10:29PM
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ThePreset
Posts: 42 - Karma: 30
I would say this is a really great thread.. I'm trying to get into the ski design industry myself and seeing this really gave me some pointers. The price that you demanded was really cheap I think, just think of the money they make on selling the skis. Did the deal go through or what?
Mar 15 2009 5:29PM
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Alkyy
Posts: 2839 - Karma: 149
you forgot JAKE DOAN
Mar 15 2009 10:24PM
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Obsessedwski
Posts: 2261 - Karma: 71

So a bit of an update:

Thank you so much for those of you that helped me through this, honestly I would've been totally lost without you guys.

So the deal did go through, and yes the company is Sag Straps. However, I'd like to point out that I was in no way trying to shed negative light on the company, I was just asking for advice with the thread, and was the only motive I had in creating this thread.

Also, the guys at Sag Straps were not intentionally trying to rip me off or trick me into giving them the deisgns for really cheap in any way, they made an honest mistake in estimating market value for this kind of work. They're in the same boat as me, just starting out in the industry and being a bit naive to the industry standards as well as proper procedures to go through for doing business as professionals.

The deal did go through, for a fair price. I can't disclose the amount due to confidentiality issues, but I will say that we are both satisfied with the price we agreed upon. I think I can say that this was a good learning experience for both of us, and I hope to work with them again in the near future.

Meanwhile, keep your eys out for some sick straps next season, so you can tell your friends, "Hey, I was part of making this happen."

Again, thanks to everyone who helped me out and happy shredding!

Mar 16 2009 5:47PM
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