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Why the electric car is useless, for the united states./rant

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cjgncjgn
Posts: 3023 - Karma: 21
let me preface by saying im a politics major at a canadian university.
anyways. the stimulus package has a lot of people talking about how much better the electric car is for the environment than the current petroleum based automotives.

what is seldom talked about is the next step of this, the massive increase in electricity demands which can only be met at this current time by the united states with the dirtiest of all powers, coal. The USA has been slow to build nuclear reactors to the same proportions as canada or other nations.

Energy is made in the combustion engine of a car to move the car, making that energy with coal, a very dirty power source. is just as bad for the environment as the car itself.

Not to mention the added drain on the transmission lines will require upgrades.


I guess this might be disorganized but it bothers me how environmentalists tend to be one step thinkers, and dont ever explore the after effects of their decisions, I get that ideas need to be created and floated but real solutions need to be explored,

/rant
Feb 18 2009 1:56AM
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A-Style**
Posts: 1831 - Karma: 81
there was an electric car. there's either a documentary or book or something on it called like 'the death of the electric car', may not have title exactly correct though sorry. but, if i can remember, the government did invest in this technology, and they produced some electric cars (i feel like it was for some sort of a competition) that worked and ran really well. then something happened (cant remember), and they decided to get rid of all the electric cars and go back to oil. sorry i cant remember more...
Feb 18 2009 1:58AM
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josh.
Posts: 3469 - Karma: 42
thats why fuel cells are where its at
Feb 18 2009 2:02AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59

Feb 18 2009 2:06AM
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Nicholas.
Posts: 10905 - Karma: 60
no hate to you personally but im kinda sick of kids claiming their poli sci majors and shit.
Feb 18 2009 2:10AM
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skithe49th
Posts: 2487 - Karma: 14
I agree with you that we are not ready to go electric right now, because of the infrastructure that we hold right now. This is not an arguement that should be used to keep our ICE cars (internal combustion engines). Electric vehicles are a great thing to do solely, but we need to re structure our whole power grid etc. before be revamp the auto industry. Fuel cells are still WAY expensive for even the high rollers, GM just pushed back the volt even farther and they keep changing how electric it's gonna be, Tesla motors is one of the only fabricators of EV's in the US right now, and Zap-x a company that had lots of potential shut down. Right now I'd say do a conversion. Don't mess around with all the bio fuel bullshit. Spend the time and money on an electric vehicle conversion, I did and I learned so much and it's waay better than ICE engines. There's so much potential we just have to make it
Feb 18 2009 2:12AM
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Thenowhereman42
Posts: 5682 - Karma: 65
Its been proven that a hybrid vehicle will do more long term environmental damage that a regular car.  First of all there is chemical mining involved, which is horrible for the environment.  Just the batteries alone make 4 different ship journeys on huge tankers around the world, which uses massive amounts of fuel (and imagine if one sank).  And the batteries are all going to end up in land fills somewhere. 

We need to use biofuel really, but of course they're just going to chop down the rainforests to grow plants for biofuel.  Actually, they already do this, and McDonald's has lots of cows grazing in fields that were once rainforests (unrelated).  We basically need to make tougher environmental restrictions on big corporations that use the guise of "free trade" and a "world economy" to rape 3rd world countries of their natural resources.  Oh and you also need to break big oil's hold on Us politicians and revoke their ability to get laws passed to hinder the growth of bio-fuel gas stations.

Its going to be a tough fight.

So /Agreement rant
Feb 18 2009 3:20AM
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Calb3rt
Posts: 6005 - Karma: 2,203
did you know that henry ford's first model T was built to run on hemp gas?
1 acer of hemp equates to about 4 acers of trees, and even better cannabis is mature and ready to be harvested in just a few months instead of the years it takes for a tree to grow.

Click for larger image
Feb 18 2009 3:51AM
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Steazel
Posts: 553 - Karma: 16
Yea it does seem like the eletric car is much more just to show that we can do it, kinda like the cold war and space travel... oh well history will repeat itself.
Feb 18 2009 6:59AM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7846 - Karma: 22,202
how about using wind/solar power which environmentalists are also pushing for?
Feb 18 2009 8:58AM
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eastside
Posts: 1744 - Karma: 167
and this is why we are studying under water turbines and other alternatives for electricity.
Feb 18 2009 9:09AM
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clrumivier4life
Posts: 2429 - Karma: 9
As the last two people said, yes, at this time the electricity would be produced from coal mostly, but we are not only looking to produce electric cars, but also find cleaner sources of electricity. Clean coal, wind, solar, nuclear, all of these are being considered and the next steps are being taken to start using them on a wider scale. Either way, America needs to break its dependence on foreign oil, even if that means short term heavy use of coal for electricity and to power our cars, but its all looking toward a cleaner future. You have to start somewhere and I think we're currently taking the correct steps in approaching the problem.

Not to mention, higher electrical demands means that its necessary to improve our infrastructure. The infrastructure has been in need of improvements for a long time so this will just give us a reason to do it. It also creates jobs in a time when jobs are scarce and the economy is shit.
Feb 18 2009 9:28AM
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sk1er
Posts: 614 - Karma: 10
dont worry its only a matter of time before solar saves us
Feb 18 2009 9:55AM
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Arabian.
Posts: 9657 - Karma: 358
Get a bike. fucking /thread.
Feb 18 2009 9:56AM
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jayo.
Posts: 5015 - Karma: 34
straight up
Feb 18 2009 9:56AM
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49566738265
Posts: 0 - Karma: 7,704
Seriously....it's fucking useless anyway.  There, I said it.
Feb 18 2009 10:06AM
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49566738265
Posts: 0 - Karma: 7,704
Environmentalists are stupid.  That's why they never win.  We need a few million more windmills to power up the traveling needs of America.
Feb 18 2009 10:06AM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13118 - Karma: 19,089

So by your logic, we should do nothing about exploring electric batteries. We should expect the world to suddenly become better. Well it doesnt just happen.

Using batteries doesnt increase engergy consuption dramatically. Often, the power required to recharge a batterie is a few watts over 3 to 6 hours. Also, lost energy is being used to recharge the battery slightly to prolong the life. But, If this technology was developped 10 years ago, we would all have electric, efficient cars by now. The reason why electric cars suck is because mister anyone is making their own prototype.

It costs 8$ to travel 100km on in internal combustion, of electric, its 1.75$ for the same distance. This accounts for power in fuel, required by the battery and the effiency.

An engine is 20 to 25% efficent, an electric car is 80 to 85%.

Maybe politics cant solve the problem, sciences can. So fuck politics

Feb 18 2009 10:14AM
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robtheslobonacob
Posts: 471 - Karma: 17
I just find it crazy that there is so much potential with nuclear energy, but because of a few careless mishaps (human error) people are too scared to use it.  It's cleaner than coal/oil, its more effective than wind/solar, I just don't get it.  I don't know if any of you are familiar with TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) but they have a series of lakes built on the Tennessee River a few of which have nuclear reactors, and my question is whats stopping the rest of America?  Sure there are risks, but in the end it seems worth the risks to invest in an energy source that is probably our most efficient and "clean" option.
Feb 18 2009 10:21AM
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^nate^
Posts: 1263 - Karma: 560
hha "i'm a polisci major and against environmentalists.."

well i'm a physics major hoping to do fuel research this summer and definitely on their side... at least they're doing something other than gasoline...
Feb 18 2009 10:27AM
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49566738265
Posts: 0 - Karma: 7,704
I agree, it would be a great source of energy to power up some electric cars too.  Nuclear is the winner if we can find a better method of waste management.
Feb 18 2009 10:31AM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561

yea, i'm kind of sick of it too. It's as if being a poli sci major gives you the right to say whatever the fuck you want about politics and the world. But like you said, no hate to the starter, because this one isn't half bad.

Personally i think we should explore whatever possibilities we have for more efficient vehicles. Try a little bit of whatever we can think of, then use the best

Feb 18 2009 10:50AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
dude, then they would just be slaughtering birds....

save a bird NO MORE WINDMILLS!
Feb 18 2009 10:53AM
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.KYLE.
Posts: 1891 - Karma: 59
So why hasn't Japan or the magical UK/Europe invented an electric car?

Think about Japan, they have almost no evil oil companies, almost zero oil production, and a few of the biggest car companies on earth.

Click for larger image

So why doesn't Japan have an electric car if they are so easy to make?
They have no reason to keep using gas, unless they like importing almost all of it.
Feb 18 2009 10:56AM
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sampsihoyos
Posts: 1939 - Karma: 910
my family owns two electric cars both fully powered by solar cells on our roof. we also own a saab which i take for any drive over 150 miles. suck on that thread maker
Feb 18 2009 10:59AM
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Mooserz
Posts: 2945 - Karma: 32
Theres a guy in my area I see maybe once twice every year who has a electric Honda~ It sounds like the bat mobile when it goes~ The old ones, not the new one
Feb 18 2009 11:00AM
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Aaaron.
Posts: 11817 - Karma: 903
so....
where you gonna get the Gs?
Feb 18 2009 11:17AM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
nothing wrong with nuke power as far as i can tell, we've got plenty here in Canada already and we're expected to get a lot more soon, i heard a discussion on the radio about how they hope to replace most of our current non-renewable energy resources with nuclear energy by sometime not too far off in the future, the pros and cons of nuclear plants, etc.
seems like the best plan of action from my point of view.
Feb 18 2009 11:35AM
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g.rich
Posts: 247 - Karma: 9
you start this thread and say you're a poli sci major and then go on to talk about the environment. it seems like you've never taken an enviro class in your life...i think you'd benefit from it.
Feb 18 2009 11:50AM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
I dont really care what we do as a nation/ world to further our advancements in Alternative fuels or alternative energies as long as we get off of foreign oil.

I really dont like Obama but i do like that he want's us to be free from foreign oil in 10 years. by foreign i mean, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela... the ones that are using our money to fuel groups that hate America.

im a big supporter of the Pickens Plan because it has some sort of structure, a large following and a man that knows what the hell he is doing. its not a complete fix but its a bridge to get us into the next step and off foreign oil.

The other thing i hate is when everybody downgrades America for being "evil" "and "corrupt." sure some people are corrupt (people in the government, oil companies...) but America is always the first (usually) to invent new technologies. I don't know if people on this site have been living under a rock but we have come a very far in the last 10 years.

- did you know that America , last year, produced more wind than any other country in the world?

- did you know we are building 0 carbon emission buildings all over the country?

- did you know that America is the Saudi Arabia of Wind?

- did you know that Walmart (the worlds largest retailer) this month is trying out, i think, 26 different alternative fuels in their semis; which will probably work if walmart is trying them. they will run on heavy duty diesel -electric hybrids, liquid nitrogen gas, even reclaimed grease. if that works Walmarts complete fleet will be transformed followed by the rest of the country.

- we are closer to alternative energies in the market place than we think. Our generation will see the greatest leaps in alternative energy and fuels than in any other time in history. the breakthroughs we will see will be bigger than the creation of the car, finding oil or even space exploration in my opinion.

- my grandpa, who, lived through the great depression, 8 or 9 major recessions, the 2 world wars, and the space landing told me that he would love to be in my generation. he couldn't believe the amount of alternative energy and fuel possibilities that are right around the corner for our world. so stop bitching about how nothing will work because its not happening NOW (in terms of a year or two). people are way to short minded.

Feb 18 2009 11:50AM
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g.rich
Posts: 247 - Karma: 9
^^haha i like it. yeah let's hope this administration does WORK on implementing and mainstreaming these new technologies.
Feb 18 2009 12:14PM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15951 - Karma: 9,451
id be sick over here though. we use hydro electricty JEA
Feb 18 2009 12:19PM
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tjski
Posts: 5859 - Karma: 44
Great idea! Next time i go skiing i will just ride my bike to the mountain....... or not..

People need to drive cars, face it. But to say that we (USA) arn't trying to come up with alternative fuel sources, you are obviously blind. (And i mean you as in whoever doesn't think we are.)

ferrinski86 hit the nail on the head with this one.
Feb 18 2009 12:25PM
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InNeon
Posts: 119 - Karma: 14
i wont bother reading everything but some short facts
im european = smart
electric cars = crap, you will charge it all day and drive a short distance and thats really crap. during the chraging you will consume a lot of electricity and if you still use coal its really bad.
hybrids = most epic marketing by car manufacturers, you can drive a bmw m5 for 15 years befora a toyota prius is better for the environment and do you know why?? because the damn battery travels several times around the world before it is in your car, and guess if the cargo ships are friendly for the environment... NO. And still they use as much fuel as a normal asian or european diesel.
so buy a european or asian small diesel car and you get the most environment friendly car they make now. you dont need a american v8 when a asian 2.0 liter gives you more hp :D
Feb 18 2009 12:48PM
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[MEGAMO]
Posts: 1222 - Karma: 18
im glad other people realize the problems with electric cars. something always has to burn to make it run. just because its not in the car doesnt mean its not burning somewhere else.

while hybrids and the like would help, what the us really needs to do is embrace public transportation. very few places do this, but if more people did, it would cut a lot of driving.
Feb 18 2009 1:10PM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
i like your idea about more public transportation and that will cut down large city pollution but the fact still remains that a large number of people drive long distances and we still have the trucking industry to think about, but public transportation is a start.

we will have electric cars one day too, but not for another 30 or 40 years though IMO
Feb 18 2009 1:47PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
 do you have a problem with the sun being on fire?

 Let's just use the energy it produces, be it light or wind.
Feb 18 2009 3:34PM
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B.bowzz
Posts: 659 - Karma: 211
i agree i mean if you get the electricity from a wwter or steam powered generator or whatever i dunno then you may be conserving right but then again if you get the electrical energy from coal and all that fossil fuels ,, your not doing shit for the environment really
Feb 18 2009 3:38PM
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[MEGAMO]
Posts: 1222 - Karma: 18
in europe people going long distance just take the train, the same with some areas of ontario. shipping freight over rails is also a great way to do it.
Feb 19 2009 12:51AM
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[MEGAMO]
Posts: 1222 - Karma: 18
wind power is not adequate, and neither is solar, they just arent efficient enough yet.
Feb 19 2009 12:52AM
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[MEGAMO]
Posts: 1222 - Karma: 18
you know that coal power plants burn coal to make steam to turn turbines right? pretty much every burning power plant makes steam, even nuclear. the only difference in nuclear is it is much more efficient since you dont have to keep bringing in more and more and then spitting all the soot out into the atmosphere
Feb 19 2009 12:53AM
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tjski
Posts: 5859 - Karma: 44
I disagree with you on the wind power. Wind power is suprisingly (sp) efficient. Not for a car obviously but to power like cities and things like that. To me wind power is much like hydro-electric dams are. If we can get at least a little bit of energy out of our natural things like wind, water, etc... why not? Wind is fairly efficient and it doesn't hurt the environment whatsoever.

To me wind power is the biggest up and coming energy resource. IMO I don't care if you don't agree with me this is just how i feel about wind power.

Feb 19 2009 1:05AM
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cjgncjgn
Posts: 3023 - Karma: 21
totally agree. Im currently pursuing a degree in business, human resources as well. Poli sci is my passion, i love it. practically and for a job, its totally worthless.
Feb 19 2009 1:30AM
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aussieskier
Posts: 805 - Karma: 182
just out of curiosity why are they not putting more money into fuel cell cars,

i know pretty much nothing about this but fuel cell cars produce no polution right where electric cars are mostley powered by coal?

hondas got that fuel cell car that was in top gear and james may said it was pretty damn good.
Feb 19 2009 7:53AM
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[MEGAMO]
Posts: 1222 - Karma: 18
while it may be efficient in terms of lost power when generating electrcity, they still need MASSIVE farms to make power anywhere close to that of a traditional plant. and us cities need more power than ever, i dunno about you, but every summer for like the last 10 years, in denver and in phoenix ive experienced rolling blackouts due to the huge power demand just for ac and the like
Feb 19 2009 8:54AM
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aussieskier
Posts: 805 - Karma: 182

with all the coastline in the US im curious as why tidal power is not utilised more, there is always going to be tide so its not seasonal unlike wind its always there, we have a few here in australia and they seem to work pretty well, cheap and effeciant.

Feb 19 2009 9:24AM
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robtheslobonacob
Posts: 471 - Karma: 17
why is it that we can't get these diesel's in the states? Is it because they aren't technically "clean" diesels or whatever? because i've read about some of these overseas getting 50-60+ mpg which is more efficient than our "hybrids"
Feb 19 2009 9:28AM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
you keep bringing up some very good points that i like and disagree with. so thanks for your input.

Wind is alot more efficient as each day passes. Yes we need massive wind farms which is why i am a supporter of the Pickens Plan, are you aware of that or follow it at all? just curious.

We do need large transmission lines to get the power to the east and west parts of the country and i think will cost us somewhere between 20 and 40 billion dollars to make an electrical grid large enough and strong enough to support the wind generated power. that may seem like ALOT of money but it is nowhere near the 700 Billion dollar amount that we send overseas every year for oil.

Im also not saying we are going to rely completely on Wind to run our cities, thats nuts. but the more energy we produce here at home the less we need to import from the middle east which will cripple us in the next 10 years if we dont start now.
Feb 19 2009 1:50PM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
yes, shipping things on rail is a great way to ship merchandise and we do a shit load of that here in America. Yes, its down to a point right now because of the economy but thats one of the reasons we have to move things by truck is because the rail lines are too busy and can only go so far, so i would believe you would have a hard time arguing the train point because i would think most countries utilize their rail system rather well.
Feb 19 2009 2:17PM
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562056961108
Posts: 0 - Karma: 575

the one fallacy in your argument, sir, is that burning energy from a power would reduce 30% of our emissions, as a power plant burns more efficiently than a car, even with the current power plants.

Power plants are built to withstand maximum capacity (like when everyone leaves their lights on and runs their ac all day.) most of the time, power plants are just hanging out, not operating at capacity.

By plugging cars in at night, we would drastically increase of efficiency with the grid, and would reduce emissions

I am paraphasing Thomas Friedman, in his New book: Hot, Flat, and Crowded. It is a great read and convinced me on not only the existance and drasticness of global warming, but also made me a believer in green tech. check it out

Feb 19 2009 2:53PM
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