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Comps are holding back the sport

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quebecfreestyler
Posts: 13040 - Karma: 1,419

Not gonna lie,  after watching dew tour pipe, i realised how much judging dosnt help the sport to go in the right direction.


I'm not gonna say Dumont didnt deserve first cause from a judge point of view, he went bigger and had the trick. But at the same time  Tanners run was so much better when it comes to perfectionism and style.

Dorey's and Tanner's run were so  good and had such a different flavor then just tricks after tricks.

 Our sport is all about expression and not about doing the biggest trick.

I'M just sad that the extra flavor and style that dorey and tanner had were not rewarded more then that.


 No offense to the announcer but the next time I hear you say that a alleyu oop flat 7 should  score morethen a alley oop flat 3 i might just try to dfind a way to cut your microphone cables.

Other thebn  that I,m stoked to see where the pipe egement of the sport ids going from what the riders where doing. I just think the judges are holding it back.

Props t everyone in the comps for shredding  a slow pipe and giving me something to think about.

Jan 10 2009 5:53PM
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Rubio
Posts: 169 - Karma: 180

yeah ced, tanner's pipe riding is too fun to watch.

who judges anyway?

Jan 10 2009 5:56PM
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00000000
Posts: 11075 - Karma: 82,508
I wouldn't really say they are holding back the sport, but are a poor representation of freeskiing.
Jan 10 2009 5:56PM
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joly.sp
Posts: 2305 - Karma: 585

word.

Tanner's shifties didn't do a damn thing for the judges but made his run look so amazing! Simon killed it but I def. agree 100% with you on this..

Jan 10 2009 5:57PM
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MattMcGinnis
Posts: 2396 - Karma: 73
"Other thebn  that I,m stoked to see where the pipe egement of the sport ids going from what the riders where doing."

either you were really drunk or really pissed still when you wrote that...
Jan 10 2009 6:00PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13110 - Karma: 18,927
It all started 2 seasons ago, when the spin to win formula was implied by the judges. about 4 years ago, style was crucial to win and 8 + years ago it was big tricks. I still remember the d-spin 7 cross would win a big air.

Points are attributed for perfection and not style...style cannot be judged, its a matter of opinion. So the system used guidlines, something to measure perfection such as landing (which is a big part of the score). Then the difficulty degree is a multiplier.

It would be unfair to cut the more difficult tricks because then everyone would be bored seeing 7's. But I do see the point of view. I want style to come back instead of seeing 1440's and double flips.
Jan 10 2009 6:01PM
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quebecfreestyler
Posts: 13040 - Karma: 1,419
true.


I guess I'm just sad to see judges make us look like figure skating.

if anyone dosnt agree with the reference to figure skating just remember how many of the artistic maneoeuver they have to do just to make sure they dont get deduction... just like grabs and extra 360 added to spins.
Jan 10 2009 6:02PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7841 - Karma: 22,153
yeah, i think they help the sport because they provide lots of money and media exposure, but they do not reward the best aspects of freeskiing. For the people who sponsor/run the competition, it is all about advertising and making money, so it is a "double edged sword." But hopefully the tricks kids try to emulate are the stylish, cool ones.
Jan 10 2009 6:03PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
shitty judges and even worse announcers are the problem, the competition itself between the athletes is a good thing (imo). i too, am sick of hearing an announcer who has no idea wtf he/she is talking about, and seeing some pretty bogus scores from judges. we need to get people who know what they are doing involved, not some randoms, especially not people who call the terrain a "snowboard park (wtf?)"


Jan 10 2009 6:05PM
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Malcolm
Posts: 15951 - Karma: 9,451
shiftys ftw!!!!!!!
Jan 10 2009 6:06PM
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quebecfreestyler
Posts: 13040 - Karma: 1,419
 I'd rater see a perfect 9 then a 9 barely grabbed and a  tucked in fakie 10.

Thats my personnal opinion, grabs should make a trick look better.

Even tho I dont like the whole gangsta thing I think skiing judges should watch what MFM have been doing for the past years...

Perfection wthout grabs.

Grabs should be part of the tricks, not just something you do in the trick.



and  Matt I guess theres is a little bit of both in my first post.... I just dont like reading what I write so i make a whole lot of typos... that's somethign I wich I could get better at.

Jan 10 2009 6:08PM
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MattMcGinnis
Posts: 2396 - Karma: 73
haha, it just caught my eye. anyways, i agree with the spin to win thing being played, but i think id find myself more accepting of it if it could be compared more fairly to something slower and more stylie. that being said, i still think a sw 14 or dub cork deserves to be scored higher than an equally stylish flat 7 or something. big spins shouldnt be penalized for being more hucked as long as they look decent. they are way harder after all...
Jan 10 2009 6:16PM
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Big-Punisher
Posts: 814 - Karma: 10
except that the announcer was luke "party time" van valin, who is reputable member of the ski community. i was actually impressed at how polished he was. keep in mind his goal is to present the event in a way to appeal to the masses who would be watching nbc sports on a saturday afternoon.
Jan 10 2009 6:25PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
sorry, wasn't talking about dew tour, just comps in general.
Jan 10 2009 6:26PM
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goneforever
Posts: 794 - Karma: 18
To get one thing straight is that skiing, in my mind a form of art, cannot be judged. Have you ever heard someone rating the Mona Lisa or rating songs out of 100. Sure you can critic it, but you really can't rate it based upon a mathematical equation.

The major problem I have with comps is that they could lead to a type of skier who learns the tricks to perfection, builds up their rep, wins the big comps, retires with a lot of money at 24, and then never skis again, like many figure skaters and professional musical artist do. While we haven't quite reached this point, I have started to see more and more kids learning to do tricks because "that is the way it is suppose to be done."

On a side note I know that most skiers would be very pissed if comps like the Dew Tour and even the smaller ones no longer existed. Plus, many of these comps are a pretty large portion of many professional skiers' paychecks.

This post is a little confusing, sorry, but if you want me to explain anything I will gladly do it.
Jan 10 2009 6:26PM
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roseluvr
Posts: 19 - Karma: 10
i just dont like it when people take the gangster stuff to seriously
Jan 10 2009 6:37PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13110 - Karma: 18,927
Well I have some ideas to overcome the judge problems:

Have a spin, flip restriction. Something like spin up to 720 or 900 are permitted, I find this type of comp will deal with style and not stunts.

Have a session, the judges will pick the athletes just by watching and not scoring anything.


One thing I forgot to mention, newschool freesking is still young and still uses old mogul method to rate every run. I think we will have to wait until a new way to judge a comp is created and used.
Jan 10 2009 6:50PM
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quebecfreestyler
Posts: 13040 - Karma: 1,419
 at some point, pro skiers have to make money out of that skiing habit and thats where we need to mobilise and  decided what where we want the $$$ to go.
Jan 10 2009 6:51PM
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CharlesB.
Posts: 2755 - Karma: 66
once again, amen my Ced !  Dorey's pipe skiing is the most progressive I've seen in a very long time.  Judges need to score his runs higher, because yes, if they score runs with only regular tricks higher, then the sport is held back.

dorey's the man !
Jan 10 2009 7:14PM
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mokeefe257
Posts: 405 - Karma: 10
anyone got any footage of thalls pipe run?
Jan 10 2009 7:21PM
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creighton
Posts: 3837 - Karma: 3,400
Thank you ced! it turns a sport thats called "free" style into "conformed" style. its going to turn freestyle into another event with moguls and racing. it encourages ridiculous spinning and flipping, with no grabs, and some how that wins?
Jan 10 2009 7:21PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
This same discussion happens every year after every major comp. Nothing ever changes, nothing ever will. That is just how comps are.

True freeskiing is represented on the mountain or in the movies, not in a one hour long competition.
Jan 10 2009 7:30PM
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quebecfreestyler
Posts: 13040 - Karma: 1,419
so waht you aresaying is that thal integrated shifties to his run and dorey got  even moretech with his run for no reason at all???


 things are changing, we just need to  make it so they cahnge faster.
Jan 10 2009 7:32PM
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laurence^
Posts: 1575 - Karma: 19
A lot more things are holding down the sport such as idiotic trends and the poor examples certain "pros" are giving. Ex: the image that skiing is thug and that drugs is a part of skiing

I am not including you in this category ced because you do neither. You are simply a noble pirate.
Jan 10 2009 7:33PM
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tride
Posts: 1038 - Karma: 26
Good lord, adding restrictions is no solution to anything. As soon as you start telling people what they can and can't do, you might as well put a nail in the coffin.

Back in the day, JF Cusson won X games big air with the must hucked, ugly, hula hoop, ungrabbed switch 7 of all time. If people had put a spin restriction back then because at the time, based on the fact that only guys doing 360s were making them look good, then where would we be now?

FUCK RESTRICTIONS of any kind.
Jan 10 2009 7:33PM
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quebecfreestyler
Posts: 13040 - Karma: 1,419

amen to that

 except the fact that jf ashould have won with his rodeo 5.... people should look up to that even now.

Jan 10 2009 7:38PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
No, but the tech vs style discussion happens every comp every year for as many years as I can remember.
Jan 10 2009 7:38PM
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reBlocke
Posts: 762 - Karma: 1,502
On the other hand, it seems that in slope JF Houle got rewarded (rightly) for super sick rail tricks, which is a step in the right direction. 
Jan 10 2009 7:55PM
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quebecfreestyler
Posts: 13040 - Karma: 1,419

see, that is exactly what i was pointing out to my friends today.


I believe that the change is coming and we just need to make sure it keeps on going where we want itto go and not where the television  medias tolsd us to.


At some point they will have to follow... ( I watched "v for vendetta" yesterday.. might explain a bunch about how I'm feeling today I guess.)


We need mor then just corporate media money right now.

Jan 10 2009 8:12PM
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K.C.Deane
Posts: 1730 - Karma: 315
I don t think there is enough of an emphasis on style. A judge typically scores a chucked trick higher than a lower spin with style and a grab....IE the reason I dont really do comps anymore.
Jan 10 2009 8:21PM
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404404
Posts: 11358 - Karma: 21,035
Fuck it, more people seeing freeskiing the better. Shit isnt my type of skiing, but what can you do, whatever brings money into the sport is good.
Jan 10 2009 8:28PM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Let comps take their own path. Comp skiing and non-comp skiing are completely different areas of the sport. You think 99% of street skaters care about X-Games skate vert and so on?
Jan 10 2009 8:43PM
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reverendwrong
Posts: 3145 - Karma: 142
well heres how juding breaks down: technicality(how hard the rick was), amplitude(how big they went), performance(how well each trick was performed), and an overall score of the run in general. there is no judging criteria for style.

I think it should break down like this: Tech, amplitude, performance-(meaning how strong their takeoff was, how they landed, body control/air awareness), and style. no overall score. Have one judge for each, so if u go all style then u lose tech scores and vice versa, how well they do the trick is basically neutral. And for the style judge they have to keep an open mind to the unique style of each rider, by watching practice/past experiences with the rider, and the whole poles/no poles thing. The overally score kills you if u like trip when u stop, like whats his name did today, they say it doesent affect the scores but we all know thats utter BS, like scoring down no poles.

Jan 10 2009 8:44PM
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cool.
Posts: 3457 - Karma: 1,724
dew tour judges suuuck
Jan 10 2009 8:48PM
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JonathonChandler
Posts: 905 - Karma: 423
agreed
Jan 10 2009 9:01PM
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Dobies.
Posts: 1835 - Karma: 205
i dont think tis
Jan 10 2009 9:31PM
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Flo_Rida_2016
Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5
 
Jan 10 2009 9:53PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,085
Exactly.

Why I should care about the results are beyond me, they don't change the feeling of riding pow fakie or getting a new combo on a difficult rail.
Jan 10 2009 11:56PM
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ECski
Posts: 976 - Karma: 13
All the runs should be on the allisports website soon if not now

allisports.com
Jan 11 2009 12:08AM
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fergie
Posts: 137 - Karma: 11
Unfortunately, contest skiing has to be judged based on some sort of formula. This seems to be exactly what shredders like JF and JP were trying to get away from when they left FIS sanctioned events to pursue freeskiing. However, if there is no formula to judge a contest there would never be any way to crown a winner. Should a flat 3 shifty beat a switch 12 with some style lacking? I would say style is something that is a completely personal taste and expression which means it is impossible for judging to award the deserved amount of points for style. I wish it was some other way, but unfortunately style is an ambiguous term.
Jan 11 2009 4:57AM
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Sean...M
Posts: 2450 - Karma: 14
If skiing was judged by other skiers, it would be a lot better.

Shit like movies and Jon's comps are what progress our sport the most IMO
Jan 11 2009 5:05AM
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tride
Posts: 1038 - Karma: 26
Just so everyone knows, the Dew Tour Judges in Mt Snow were:

-Mike Atkinson
-Evan Raps
-JF Cusson
-Phil Belanger
-Phil Larose
-Mike Laroche
Jan 11 2009 9:30AM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
take their money and run
Jan 11 2009 12:37PM
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phila
Posts: 285 - Karma: 10

yeah, personally, i think that comps arent what skiing is about.

like the sport is all about being unique and person style, so how can you make someone judge that. i understand that comps bring the industry to the spotlight.i think is it way sicker to see the pros we all know to hit an sick urban, or a sick park edit, than seeing them on 50ft perfectly formed jumps, but thats jsut me. skiing is a sport of doing your own thing. there are no winners and losers on the hill. if you skiing with buddys and having a good time your a winner. skiing doesnt need rules and regulations , and it certainly does not need judges. how much fun would you have if all the time you skiied you had some rating you.

Jan 11 2009 1:59PM
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