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And Israel will get away with it too.

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C.R.E.A.M
Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575
Sparknotes: shells landed in/near/in front of  a UN international school in gaza, killing 30 instantly and wounding (probably fatally) 50 others.
just watch the movie, i dont see in any way how they can justify this, but looks like the only ramification is going to be an "investigation" into israel's actions.


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Jan 7 2009 12:20PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
no religions = no war
Jan 8 2009 10:51PM
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JoeTheRipper
Posts: 1567 - Karma: 14
Have I said that I am against Israel, no, not at all. All I said was that Israel, in this particular situation are in the wrong, which clearly they are unless you are a jew (please don't even think for a second I'm in anyway antisemetic), or a blindly patriotic american (i'm american too, so i don't hate americans etc.). I'm not going to make my points known as there really isn't anything that I can say that you will listen to objectively. It is quite clear that people are pretty opinionated on this site considering I didn't really think I was being that controversial at all and I'm already getting gunned. On another note Israel aren't shit without the support from the west most notably America. Take that as you will.
Jan 8 2009 10:54PM
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billysexcrime
Posts: 31 - Karma: 10
too true....my invisible god in the sky is better than your invisible god in the sky!!!
Jan 8 2009 10:56PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
trust me, i've had that conversation in school for the last two days. you may think that, but think about all the people that dont go to war because of moral and religious value

if people didnt have religion, they would say fuck it, there obviously no point to being on this earth, and i dont like this guy, im going to shoot him

im a Jew, i support jews, but i do not believe in god. But most of the people on this earth do. a lot of the reason that they do good things, and they try in life is to get to "heaven". if there was no heaven, if your fate was to be burried 6 feet under for the rest of your life, what the hell would you want to suffer the 80 or so year you would be alive?

religion is why we are here today (in a good way), without religion, the very early years of life would have probably been the only years and we wouldnt be here today
Jan 8 2009 10:57PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
America has only started supporting Israel in the past 2-3 decades.  the 1948, 67 and yom kippur war were all fought without any aid from anyone, including america.  It was theier own weapons, tanks, soldiers, everything.  They beat all the arab nations each time in a matter of a couple weeks.   I think althought they have our support, they can handle themselves just fine.  They probably wouldn't even admit that we are helping them now. 
Jan 8 2009 10:58PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
to add, you said
"Israel fucked this shit up and if you don't thnk they have you are blind. The only reason that Israel haven't been blown into nothing over this is because of America. "

i know that there are millions on non jews, and smart americans that know whats going on in israel that are with israel

israel has been trying to settle this war peacfully, and this war has been going on for years

please, just tell me how israel "fucked this shit up". and i dont believe americans have ever fought for israel in israel. they have been over their shoulder as intimidation, but israel has been standing their own by themselves for years

learn your facts, please, you call us blind and stupid and all that shit, but you dont know what your talking about
Jan 8 2009 11:02PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
yea you're right.  but think about any conflict that has ever started.  It has always, been based on either religion, or race/ethnicity.  I agree that religion is an important thing that keeps us around. it just is a serious conflict that starts trouble.
Jan 8 2009 11:03PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
i know it starts trouble, but think about the trouble there would be with no religion...

there's always going to be conflict, but believe it or not, i think that the idea of religion has kept things better than they would be with no religion
Jan 8 2009 11:07PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
thats definitely a possibilty. 
Jan 8 2009 11:08PM
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JoeTheRipper
Posts: 1567 - Karma: 14
Religion is just used as an excuse, it's all about that paper/power. Israel have fucked shit up by using rockets willy nilly and killing a tremendous amount of civilians, no it's not solely their fault, but they have absolutely no doubt about it fucked shit up! Kind of like America fucked shit up in Iraq did we not? that's all i'm saying.
Jan 8 2009 11:11PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
prove to me that israel was INTENTIONALLY firing rockets into civilians. HAMAS USES CIVILIANS AS HUMAN SHIELDS!!! they use their people like dummys, so when israelies kill civilians trying to hit hamas, they look bad. prove to me israel fires rockets into random places. I think its not their fault what so ever. and also, israel NEVER started this war, it was the Palistinians.

do you know how many civilians that palistinians have killed in sucide bombs and random shootings in the middle otf towns? they aim for civilians, israel doesnt intend to hit them
Jan 8 2009 11:16PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
here, i found someone who put it much better than me, this sums it up (it was a response to a post)

"You cite that Hamas rocket attacks killed 19 since 2002 and in response, Israel killed 500 civilians.
1) There have been over 10,000 rockets fired by Hamas into Israel in this time. All have been aimed at cities, intended to kill or maim civilians. To merely cite the number of Israelis killed lacks context and misrepresents the facts.
2) You cite that Israel has killed 500 civilians. The way in which you write this implies that Israel has sought to kill civilians on the other side in retribution for their own civilian deaths. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Unlike Hamas, who has sought to do nothing but kill Israeli civilians, Israel has sought to attack Hamas's infrastructure and prevent further missile attacks on Israel. Israel has not deliberately targeted civilians. However, Hamas uses civilians as human shields. They store their weapons in people's houses, use schools are launching grounds for missile attacks, and try to surround themselves with as many civilians as possible. Because of this, civilians on their side have been killed. This is regrettable, but it comes as a result of Hamas's actions. They are to blame.
3) Where did you get your 500 number from?
4) It is not just about the numbers. 19 vs 500 is meaningless. Israel has been attacked from the outside for the past 6 years. Rocket attacks are being made on Israeli cities on a daily basis. Israel has the responsibility and right to defend itself. It is not a numbers game. Proportionality does not mean that Israel is only permitted to cause X amount of damage in response to a certain attack. It means that Israel must not deliberately cause more damage to infrastructure or death/injuries to noncombatants than is necessary in order to win the war.

Israel is the one who is attempting to stop rocket fire on her own civilians. Hamas is the one who is deliberately targeting civilians and putting the lives of the Gaza residents (who happened to elect them to office) in danger by their attacks on Israel and tactics. I think that it is clear who the good guys are."
Jan 8 2009 11:22PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
that isn't a rebuttal to my statement,  this conflict is because of religions.
Jan 8 2009 11:38PM
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JoeTheRipper
Posts: 1567 - Karma: 14
You are like talking to a fucking brick wall. It doesn't matter if they didn't mean to kill any civilians, the fact of the matter is that they ARE KILLING CIVILIANS. Jesus Christ, who are these rockets going to kill when they shoot them into a tiny piece of land which is populated to shit. I'm sorry but they knew exactly the risks involved and they still fired rockets into gazza, there really isn't two ways about it. Israel Have Fucked This Shit Up.
Jan 8 2009 11:43PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
what the fuck are the supposed to do? let Hamas fire rockets into israeli cities targeting civilians for six years and just watch? this is retarded. israel has no choice. either they kick back and let hamas blow their shit up or they fight back.

you cant argue against this. israel has no choice. do you know the hamas has been firing rockets into public places, suicide bombing town centers, shoot up crowded streets in israel? and you say fuck israel because they retaliate against pussy's who hide behind school children and familys?

YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED
Jan 8 2009 11:54PM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,312

the rockets that hamas has access to have no where close to the lethality that the israeli army has at their disposal. They are like ghetto ass WWII rockets smuggled from god knows where. I only bring this up to say that this is a conflict of extreme imbalance. Israel has the luxury of lazer targeted missiles, GPS satellites, etc. Hamas can't aim their shit from shinola. Im just saying that all moral distinctions aside, it looks far more intentional when israelis kill palestinian civilians.

Secondly, the argument that 'we can do what the terrorists do because they did it to us first' means that there is no moral high ground to be had. period. If people are willing to admit this, then this conflict is reduced to nothing more than a fight for territory and resources. Relion be damned, justice is meaningless, it is only who can take what land from who by sheer force. This is why I believe there is no God. The holyest of lands is arguably one of the worst places on earth. fuck that shit.

Jan 9 2009 12:18AM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
hey bro, more people have died in suicide bombings than in israeli airstrikes.  why don't you think about that for a second. 
Suicidie bombings - intentional civilian deaths
airstrikes - not intentional.
Jan 9 2009 12:20AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
ok, technology has nothing to do with it. your missing the point

if hamas hides in one school room and launches missiles from there, israel can target that school room, but they cant control the explosion and only kill the hamas. they put people in the way of the bombs, there is nothing israel can do to get around the civilians

and dont blame hamas's shitty aiming, a suicide bomber has much better aim then anything israel shoots off.
Jan 9 2009 12:40AM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,312
Yes there is something they can do... NOT drop the bomb on the school. Look, I get the frustration that they have.. but at some point they have to realize that they are making enemy's faster than they can kill them and try something different. Give peace a chance!
Jan 9 2009 12:43AM
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theteo
Posts: 210 - Karma: 18
Not all muslims are terrorists, not all palestinians are terrorists.

The whole situation is screwed up, and war will not help it.




Jan 9 2009 10:59AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
No, look, HAMAS LAUNCHES MISSELS AND HIDES OUT AND STORES AMMO IN CROWDED TOWN CENTERS, NEIGHBORHOODS, AND SCHOOLS. THEY DONT HAVE BASES THAT CAN ATTACK. if israel didnt bomb these schools, they wouldnt be able to fight back, because thats where hamas is. they are launching missles from schools, israel can't just let it happen all because theres a school in the way

and i know not all palistinians and muslims are terrorists, but Hamas is a know terrorist organization, and Hamas runs palistine, they were elected
Jan 9 2009 3:18PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
And through the transitive property, Palestinians are terrorists?


Seriously though, I dont see how you can be for either side. Hamas has done horrible things, yes, but Israel certainly hasnt helped the situation, and are as guilty as Hamas when it comes to breaking ceasefires. The only difference between the two sides is that one has US support and billions of dollars.
Jan 9 2009 4:00PM
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C.R.E.A.M
Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575
"terrorist" is subjective, and is often a term just given to countries that dont comply.

Jan 9 2009 5:23PM
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C.R.E.A.M
Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575
yes, thanks

nobody on here has all the facts, and nobody here can tell anyone they are right or wrong. i agree with most of what drew has said, and i think he is one of the most informed members on this situation.
Jan 9 2009 5:58PM
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sykonaut
Posts: 346 - Karma: 11
War is War. Drink a cup of concrete and harden the fuck up. I've been to Israel. I was there for two weeks. Do you actually understand how small Israel is? You can drive from Eilat to Acco in one day. That is basically from top to bottom. I don't understand how people justify shooting rockets into cities. Neither side is the good side. Even though I am leaned more towards the Israeli side, they are both at fault. Honestly, all of this is like justifying terror attacks everywhere when you say "OMG THEY KILLED some 100 Civillians" even though over the years, many terror attacks have been planned and executed over the years in Israel. War sucks. People die.
You say the Hamas militants are not trained and regular men. Well then why do they do it? Extreme nationalism. I don't care what you think. Some countries in the Middle East are EXTREMELY militaristic. They are trained from birth to fight. You act like the Israeli people just marched into Israel and took it. They didn't It was signed over to them by the British. Now, the Palistinians are fighting the Israelis because they "took their land" a 1/2 of Israel is the fucking desert! It's a SANDBOX. You have to be half insane to be fighting over a sandbox. The Israeli government did not initiate this whole conflict. You say lots most muslims aren't against jews. Jews are not aloud to travel to Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I'm not sure about other countries. But I know those two for sure.
Radical Islam is real. Hamas IS a terrorist group. They are the only ones in Israel un happy. Look at the FATA. They don't really care. For people who don't know who the FATA are. They are in control of the West Bank.

Click for larger image

So basically, I don't justify either sides action. But something has got to give.

Fun fact: Israel's militia is mostly funded by itself. For people who don't know. Israel is a big contender in the ongoing arms race. They come up with a lot more technology than you think. Uzi? Created in Israel. Desert Eagle? Created in Israel and so on. You cannot say the US is totally funding Israel.

Jan 9 2009 7:02PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
Israel gave the Palistinians Gaza... israel has been looking for peace for years. i mean obviously they haven't been perfect, but no one is.

and i dont get why you guys are bad mouthing Gaza for killing so many civilians. israel does not fire rockets into random public areas. Hamas specifically positions themselves behind civilians so that israel looks bad when they try to fight back

Jan 9 2009 8:27PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
hahaha well i guess you're right on this one... read this
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15979

thats unfucking believable, i don't think that number could be right for palestinian deaths.....
Jan 9 2009 11:26PM
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zesty_buddy
Posts: 880 - Karma: 28

From the UN from when this war started: 758 Palestinian civilians dead of which over 250 are children. Also the death toll is likely to be a lot higher than this.. Hamas have killed 50 Israelis.

There is meant to be a peace fire for three hours each day so the UN can get aid into Palestein. Israel isn't abiding by this and continue to bomb Palestein. Also Israel killed a UN aid truck driver.

I don't know about in the US but there have been protests throughout the world today for a ceasefire.

Jan 10 2009 12:06AM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
yeah but you can't say that the US isn't a huge part of it. so maybe those firearms were invented in israel, who pays for the majority of their mass production? doesn't matter where they are invented its who helps supply them with the firearms...
Jan 10 2009 12:52AM
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Lax_Bro40
Posts: 5166 - Karma: 18
firearms that help them from being wiped off the face of the planet due to the fact they worship a different God...
Jan 10 2009 1:11AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
worship a different god than who? you need to look your facts up

jews and muslims worship the same god, but have different ways and different additions and what not
Jan 10 2009 1:15AM
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Lax_Bro40
Posts: 5166 - Karma: 18
if they worship the "same" God then tell me why are they persecuted?
Jan 10 2009 1:18AM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
i'de really like to see how much america funds israel.  i don't think its as much as everyone thinks it is. they have a very strong economy and i think they can support themselves pretty wel.. those jews know about money...
Jan 10 2009 1:18AM
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Moonlight
Posts: 905 - Karma: 18

[IMG]gronnevik.se/rjukan/uploads/Main/cute_kitten.p.jpg[/IMG]o

to lighten the thread

Jan 10 2009 1:29AM
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Moonlight
Posts: 905 - Karma: 18
[IMG]freewebs.com/beware169%5Eposer/cute%20kitten(weee).jpg[/IMG]
Jan 10 2009 1:29AM
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Moonlight
Posts: 905 - Karma: 18
fuck it go to the link
Jan 10 2009 1:30AM
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skibum2292
Posts: 398 - Karma: 9
Just because you're muslim doesn't mean you have any idea what a radical muslim thinks unless of course you are in the 1% range! i have a neighbor whose father was in a muslim terrorist organization and he has told first the hate they have for America and Christians is relentless and unyeilding. Didn't want to have to share that piece information with you but apparently you just are to afraid to face reality.
Jan 10 2009 1:31AM
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skibum2292
Posts: 398 - Karma: 9
Haile Selassie
Jan 10 2009 1:58AM
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Moonlight
Posts: 905 - Karma: 18
thats some google shit^^
Jan 10 2009 2:06AM
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Nico_G
Posts: 1480 - Karma: 15
Maybe jewish civilians dont kill other people but the so called ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES DO!!!! cause israel really has to defend themselves from poor people who are getting their homes taken over and bombed by the israeli army, I have alot of jewish friends and I know some who are completely against war on both sides. I personally think this shit needs to stop from both sides and people should live among eachother instead of trying to take over eachother. The israeli government is essentially doing the same thing that the germans tried to do to, them, which is exterminate palestinians. After all it was the palestianians land before the 1950's until britain came in and said wait, the jews have gone through sooo much, (which is true) so we should go take over this land called palestine and rename it Israel. (that is wrong) Its fucked up that civilians are getting killed on both sides. Hammas is not right either but really they are the only people putting up a fight right now for the palestinians.

And dont call me antisemetic cause thats bullshit.

Basically all we need is PEACE!!!! FUCK WAR is what I am trying to really get at is you cant say one side is right and the other is wrong because both sides are wrong.
Jan 10 2009 3:55AM
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TheQuailman
Posts: 7382 - Karma: 147

Isreal gave the palestinians the gaza strip.  They didn't have to do shit for them.  It is Isreal's country.  Isreal hooks up Gaza with water and gas lines and all types of shit.  And then the Hamas go and send rockets into civilian Isreal.  Who the fuck cares what types of weapons or money either country has.  If a bum stabs you with a rusty knife and you have a gun you are gunna shoot him.  Isreal is defending themselves and go fuck anyone who supports Palestine.

And a huge fuck you to the CREAM guy.  You've come across as a complete anti-semite, ill-informed dickhead. Fuck you asshole.

Jan 10 2009 1:31PM
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Casey
Posts: 7849 - Karma: 24,312
HA. cream knows 10 times as much about this shit as you do quailman. how ridiculous.
Jan 10 2009 2:28PM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
hey i like you because i met you and you are a cool guy, but don't call him an anti-semite because he is anti-israel. they are 2 completely different things and dont confuse them. i am anti-israel, but that doesn't mean i am anti-semitic because some of my best friends happen to be jewish. i am not against the jewish people at all, i am against what they are doing and have been doing to palestinians for years.
Jan 10 2009 2:53PM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
firearms that helped kick my grandpa out of his house and his country when he was 14 years old and if he didnt obey what they said those firearms would have killed him and i wouldn't be alive.
Jan 10 2009 2:55PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
what the hews are prosicuted? well their in a war now because of land, and they were part of a genocide by the germans because they were different
Jan 10 2009 4:07PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
HOW DARE YOU SAY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS ESSENTIALLY DOING THE SAME THING THAT THE GERMANS TRIED TO DO. your saying that Israel wants to kill millions of innocent people because they're different? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE HOLOCAUST WAS?!?! seriously, you have no right to be in this thread, you need to go spend a good amount of time learning what the fuck your talking about.

And before the 1950's it was british land that was then given to the jews, so your wrong again, the palistinians had no control over the ownership of the land. And when the Jews came in, they never had plans to kick the palistinians out, and infact, they gave up Gaza and the west bank to try to give them some of their own land back and to stop the fighting.

and Alex G, you last thing said your not against the jews, your against what they are doing. I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THIS CLEAR, israel is jammed packed with christians and muslims that are for israel, so the  government and the army is not all jews fighting for israel and jews, its different religious people fighting for israel
Jan 10 2009 4:18PM
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Nico_G
Posts: 1480 - Karma: 15
dude from what ive seen, the so called israeli defense forces go in and tell, palestinians, "you got 15 minutes to leave your home before we buldoze it to the ground." I'm pretty sure that is taking over peoples land, You seem to have been sooo sucked into the american media and not seen the truth. The american media has painted a totally different picture of what is really going on there. They totally censor and turn around what is going on there unfortunately people like you and most people dont see that because you havent looked at other news sources besides American ones or you do and choose to completely not wanna believe it or support it for whatever reason. Why do you think they have banned journalists from being in Israel???? There is clearly an agenda here. We support Israel and dont wanna paint a bad picture of them.

The israeli goverenment is trying to take over, palestinian land. This is not right.

Hammas is not right either. Just trying to reiterate that.

And for your info I do know what the holocaust was. yes maybe Israel isnt putting people into gas chambers but they are trying to take over palestinian land by whatever means necessary, and if that means genocide then so be it.

Thanks for telling me i have no right to be in this thread cause im gonna leave these discussions to people like you to keep thinking your right cause nothing is obviously gonna change your skewed view.

Ive said my piece like it or not accept it, have a nice life zionist.
Jan 10 2009 4:54PM
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