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Air strikes kill 170

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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/27/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html

This is sick, why are we supporting this country?
Dec 27 2008 12:33PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
not to mention a lot of the mainstream media coverage i HAVE seen is ridiculously pro israel, much like our government.

what makes your story right, and theirs wrong for that matter? you clearly (like every person on earth) have your own biases and opinions, what makes your version of the story so much more credible.

oh FYI, im not just pulling this all from one source, its a combination. mainstream news, some overseas sources, some plain old history, some from my absurdly brainwashed jewish friends (who were bitching about how the Palestinians brainwash their children, jesus they are hypocrites, but thats for another time.)


so in conclusion, dont put words in my mouth, and dont tell me what im thinking, and where im getting my info from. THAT i know, and you dont.
Jan 3 2009 10:56PM
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Jiblonski
Posts: 102 - Karma: 11
If the majority of a population elects a terrorist organization to run them is there civillian status still valid ?

I understand that is not the majority of the population and that not all civilians are represented by their elected party and that targeting civilian establishments is wrong.


Thoughts?


Jan 3 2009 10:57PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
in a word yes. first of all, i have never seen numbers for that "majority" (not saying it isnt, but id be curious to see the numbers)

second, people have rights, period. hamas' military wing is the terrorist organization, but other parts of it do some good things, ie building hospitals, schools (this ones debatable since it gives them an education, granted a very biased one, but then, the israeli side is virtually the same story), libraries, etc. so it IS understandable that they were elected. not to mention people were frustrated with the Fatah party. Israel was kicking the crap out of them, and they were concerned with losing what land they had, not to mention they were viewed as quite corrupt, and not really getting anything done.

not to mention that targeting "civilians" (well use that term to describe non militants) is wrong period.

Jan 3 2009 11:05PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
i guess we are all entitled to our own opinion. its true
I just find it hard to find any  pity for people that would love to absolutely annhialate us.  That is my main problem.  My friend who is pro palestinan, has no idea what terrorists would do to him if they were to ever get their hands on him.
Jan 3 2009 11:17PM
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Jiblonski
Posts: 102 - Karma: 11
I definitely agree with  the numbers of the votes being suspicious
and that Hamas does help build Palestine 
and even that the building schools is debatable like you said

But I can see why the Israelis do not want to give Palestine any room to attack them
when they vote in a party who wants to eliminate their nation right off the map
and then I can see why the Palestinians get pissed because Israel will always exaggerate their counter-attack
I just don't feel that Having a terrorist organization that runs a nations military will help them reach a level of peace.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not a political/World issues analyst But is Hamas in fact a terrorist organization?
Jan 3 2009 11:22PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
From what i understand, some countries consider the entire organization terrorist, while others only consider the military section terrorist.
Jan 3 2009 11:27PM
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cfox
Posts: 2286 - Karma: 38
iggyskier hit it right on
Jan 4 2009 4:45PM
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sk1er
Posts: 614 - Karma: 10
Most modern countries, US, canada, japan and the European union to name a few list it as one.  While some list only its military arm as terrorist
Jan 4 2009 5:57PM
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grifter
Posts: 933 - Karma: 102
I wish I had, I think we should start referencing posts against the "how old are you NSers" thread.
Jan 4 2009 6:35PM
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ISkiSwitch
Posts: 3157 - Karma: 22
Since there's so many completely uninformed people trying to post in this thread about things they do not know, I'm going to post up a video, which gives a brief history on this and a logical discussion about what's going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Jk1kpKvfs

This guy's a pretty famous author right now, and believe me, he knows his stuff. He talks fast, so pay attention. And stop being so hostile in political threads guys. Seriously.
Jan 5 2009 5:06PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
israel is blatantly not allowing journalists into gaza, because they are afraid of what images will get out.
Jan 5 2009 6:54PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
or maybe thats what you think... but maybe the truth is they don't want them injured...  Maybe from rockets that might get shot into their childrens daycares.  The Israelis would know that from experience. 

and cut the bullshit about hamas, everyone knows they are a full blown terrorist orginization, and no matter how much you support their side, they would still love to cut your balls off then decapitate you... so why don't you get a brain?
Jan 5 2009 7:03PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
"Israel cites as one of the main reasons for blocking foreign journalists from Gaza its belief that the reporting has been unfair and one-sided."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-ordered-to-allow-journalists-into-gaza-1219795.html

and even though that order was made, they still havent allowed anyone yet.


so please, until you can give me some VALID points, not mindless blithering about how you know so much more than me, just keep your mouth shut
Jan 5 2009 7:07PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
so i'm assuming the chopping your balls off then decapitating you is not valid.?  .. haha then you obviously don't know who you are supporting then do you?
Jan 5 2009 7:14PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
what are you talking about?
Jan 5 2009 7:15PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
I'm talking about Hamas; the terrorist orginization you're supporting.  Why support them? they hate your guts.  I gaurentee if you had the misfortune of running into them, they would happily capture you.  Do you think they care if you support them?  They woudln't give a shit.  They hate Americans and Jews.  THey would video tape you getting your head cut off.  Just like they do to IDF soldiers.
Jan 5 2009 7:24PM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
why is everyone arguing over this? this conflict has been going on for thousands of years. nothing is ever going to change unless one side takes out the other side.

Hamas wants Israel wiped off the face of the planet, as they say almost every other day. The second Ahmadinejad gets the atomic bomb he will take out israel, then we will have something to talk about.

For those of you trying to defend Hamas please shut up, its like supporting North Korea.
Jan 5 2009 7:26PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
HAAH i like the last part of your statement, but you are incorrect
this conflict has only been going on for 60 years....
Before that Muslims and Jews were almost brothers. 
Jan 5 2009 7:34PM
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860Bluntz
Posts: 110 - Karma: 13
Britain royally fucked over the world and a lot of the results are still seen today
Jan 5 2009 7:48PM
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skeeze
Posts: 315 - Karma: 29
Very well put, just watching the news at night isnt going to give you an accurate view on the history of the land and the people in it. If people would study the wars that caused this displacement of people and the events leading up to all the aliyahs and creation of a state it would make alot more sense why SOME Israeli politicians believe this much force is neccesary.
making peace with Hamas would only leave them alone for a year or two they are just going to develop and hit harder than they ever have- and this is not a chance politicians want to take.
Israel left them alone during the cease fire and now look what happened
Jan 5 2009 7:49PM
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skeeze
Posts: 315 - Karma: 29
I have never spoken to an Israeli or fellow jew for that matter that wants to wipe any arabs besides extremists, who run their mouths about how they want us to die, off this earth.
When I was in east jerusalem two Palestinian teenagers told me and 10 other extended family members including two of my grandparents that one day were all going to be lined up and shot one by one.
Even after this experience, which happened when I was 12, I will still say that most Palestinians could do something good in this world if they werent being over shadowed by the militant palestinians.
Jan 5 2009 8:05PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
im pretty sure its more like a million+ now
Jan 5 2009 8:13PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
please show me where i supported hamas. your so desperate to find SOMEONE to absolutely blame here. im not in any way advocating terrorism. im merely trying to point out that the israelis are just as bad....
Jan 5 2009 8:15PM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
you are right and so is drew. both sides have made their mistakes, as has any country. but the fact is Hamas is totally and completely nuts. The only reason that Hamas even exists is to wipe out Israel as their charter states. I back Israel 110% in their efforts, i hope the majority of NS sides with me.
Jan 5 2009 8:57PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
well what the hell do you think hamas is doing with their rockets? obviously not trying to kill civilians.
besides, us americans DO murder civilians.  So get with the program.   So does any other country.  its the world we live in. 
Jan 5 2009 9:29PM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
drew, i see your point but we both know that the US has supplied almost all of middle east with weapons and equipment over the course of a couple decades. on the sheer fact of morality i side with Israel. Israel is not the one stationing their operations in hospitals, peoples back yards, using their civilians as human shields. The civilians you are talking about are breaking international law when protecting the Hamas (and thats what most of them are doing, not shot in the crossfire). You also know that Hamas was set up to destroy israel, their charter states,

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

If my nation was being threatened to its survival i would fight back too.
Jan 5 2009 9:30PM
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grifter
Posts: 933 - Karma: 102
Drew, Why would you argue with a 12 yearold, we all know it's bullshit, and we all know that both sides are fucked up. End
Jan 5 2009 9:30PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
and that makes it ok?
Jan 5 2009 9:44PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
No instead there the ones cutting over a million people off from power and water. running over civilians with tanks. and refusing to let the media report any of it, god forbid people should know what they are doing.

palestines survival has been threatened by israel as well, whats to stop them from continuing this campaign to take over more and more of palestines land?

also most people are protecting hamas? i havent really seen anything that points to that, but if youve seen something by all means post it or pm it to me.

again, neither side is right. and neither side is going to give up, so who knows how long this will go on for.
Jan 5 2009 9:48PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
what makes shooting rockets into houses ok?
Jan 5 2009 10:06PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
anyway if you really want to support the palestians go for it... but tell them to stop electing terrorists as their leaders.  (I know the election was probably rigged in some way) but get them to stand up and overthrow those assholes... then maybe something could get done. 
Jan 5 2009 10:18PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
THe point is Hamas knows what Israel will do.  They knew firing rockets would get a reaction from Israel, because Israel doesn't fucking around.  If they fucked around they would no longer be there.  Hamas knew firing rockets would get a reaction.  I see it as hamas is killing their own people.  why not just let it be.  the israelis only start shit if something is doen to them.
Jan 5 2009 10:55PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Your a fucking idiot
Jan 5 2009 11:59PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Israel feeds the flames and is responsible too.

The relationship between Hamas and the Palestinian people is one western views have yet to really realize. Just as they did against Hezbollah, Israel believes that by taking out the leaders and destroying the government will breed hate for Hamas among the citizens. It doesnt. It strengthens the resentment and pushes the people to more extreme views.

Both sides are guilty, for sure, and whats even more bullshit than neither side agreeing to a peace talk is the refusal of foreign aid and the closed borders. What a wonderful humanitarian crisis.
Jan 6 2009 12:03AM
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grifter
Posts: 933 - Karma: 102
Well I had a lecturer from a UN rep today he laid it all out pretty clearly, or atleast the situation in the Eyes of the UN, and before anyone goes saying "well they're obviously gonna support Hammas" Just try and remember who the puppet master of the UN is, Uncle Sam. Staunch supporter, funder and backer of Israel (I Dare any of you to try and deny that)

The "Conflict" is seen as a gross over reaction by Israel, with limited justification for any action, and no justification for the measure of the (re)action taken.

The UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said Israeli airstrikes focused on "moving vehicles, residences and open areas. The American school north of Gaza city was "hit and almost completely destroyed"

The spokesman described Israels official statements regarding the lack of a humanitarian crisis as "appalling"

The Notorious Boutros Boutros Ghali (if you don't know who he is then your opinion is pretty worthless) said this: http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3469518,00.html

PLEASE read this it is very very VERY informed and might give everyone a better insight in to this conflict. This coming from one of the original architects of modern Israel and the peace process is seriously Damning, and gives us an insight in to the INFORMED opinion. if anyone wants it I've got about 28/29 pages of lecture notes / documents pertaining to the conflict, Actions of Warring Factions, legitimacy of force and the UN's stance.

Please don't jump on a side of the fence because you "always support Hammas, or always support Israel or always support the underdog" it's simply never that simple, look at the facts, analyse the situation and try and produce an informed response, otherwise we're just trying to shout a load of crap, I know this is the Internet, but we don't have to be stupid.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, please don't get offended, that's not the purpose of this, I just thought I should try and use my years of International relations lectures for the good of NS
Jan 6 2009 12:25PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
ok if i'm such an idiot please give me a couple of examples.
Jan 6 2009 2:14PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
well to start with, read drews post....
"don't give me that "they shot first" BS either. it's way more complex than that. israel invaded lebanon because they "struck first," thing is, they didn't. it was a farce, but nobody questioned it until after the fact when the vast majority of the public wasn't paying attention anymore."

THIS VERY CEASE FIRE was broken by the Israelis. On Nov 4th when they went into Gaza.
Jan 6 2009 5:02PM
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Twiggz
Posts: 129 - Karma: 10

First off if you dont know anything about this please dont post in this thread its very angering to see some of these ignorant posts.

the Hamas rebels have been fucking with Israel for years firing crude rockets at them constantly. Its about time Israel fucked them up and I hope they fuck them up real good. Fuck Pakistan

Dont ever mess with Israel they will fuck you up. Ever heard of the 6 days war, also get this

At one point in the 6 days war 80 tanks arrive to attack an Israel village. 2 Israel tanks go out to take on the other 80 tanks. After 2 hours the Isreal tanks had taken out all but 5 of the enemys tanks. YEA DONT FUCK WITH ISRAEL.

Its going to be very intersting to see if Isael attacks Iran next.

Jan 6 2009 5:37PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
i think you should take your own advice. also, what the fuck are you talking about about pakistan?
Jan 6 2009 5:39PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
How do you know they went in November 4?  Plus its their land. they have the right to do what they want in it.
I still see no evidence of anything.
Jan 6 2009 6:14PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
Its really not that funny.  Pakistan is involved in this too.  And whats so funny about Iran?  It will happen, you're a dumbass who thinks he knows everything, but you got a long way to go.  you're not right, get over yourself.
Jan 6 2009 6:59PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
you have google, you can see it yourself. but since clearly thats too difficult
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

and before you say "well they were gunmen" a ceasefire is a ceasefire. they went into gaza and killed them, what the fuck do you expect to happen in return


and gaza wasnt their land at that point it was the palestinians.....
Jan 6 2009 8:14PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
its fucking hilarious. pakistan is involved... how. where has ANYONE mentioned pakistan before this moron came in.


and no, they arent going to go into iran, theyd get fucking annihilated. you're the dumbass...
Jan 6 2009 8:16PM
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C.R.E.A.M
Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575
correct again
Jan 6 2009 8:27PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
hahaha i laugh at you.   They fought 5 different countries at once and still won.  I don't think they would have a problem with Iran.  Also, pakistan is backing Hamas, just like every other country in the middle east, in the end they will be involved don't worry.  Gaza is part of Israel, therefore its israel's land.
you're the dumbass, you just state your opinions, which are wrong.  IN the end Israel will prevail, and people who hate will be the ones annhialated.  you're on the wrong side.
Jan 6 2009 9:50PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
As if there is a right side to modern war. You're an idiot, stop.
Jan 6 2009 10:01PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
i give up your fucking retarded.
Jan 6 2009 10:12PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
so that means i won!? 
thats all that matters
Jan 6 2009 10:28PM
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Ben.
Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683
no, it means your an idiot. aka you lose. badly. i cant argue if you dont make a valid point.
Jan 6 2009 10:29PM
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zues
Posts: 6434 - Karma: -5,330
oh no big bad man studying poli sci for 4 years... you don't know anyhing about it unless you live there and have experienced. studying poli sci won't help you with shit.  lawlsacks
Jan 6 2009 10:53PM
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