Air strikes kill 170

Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575

Karma: 4,575

Posts: 2987

Addict

because if Israel didn't have support, it would get annihilated, and then they wouldn't fight anymore.

Dec 27 2008 2:03PM

0 0

Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018

Karma: 10,018

Posts: 10447

Crazy Fool

The Israelis just don't fuck around. You shoot rockets into Israeli, they will fuck you up 100 times worse.

It just comes down to what the guy said in the article:
"We have no intention of allowing these attacks to continue"

If Canada or Mexico shot rockets into the US, regardless of whether or not the US was in the wrong (as the Israelis are in the eyes of many) the US would fuck some shit up. And that is what they do best. There is a definite cost to attacking the Israelis, and for Israeli to survive (again, right or wrong) that needs to be there.

If you were the red and the everyone in the green hated you and wanted you dead, you would take your shit pretty seriously. sorry about quality...

I definitely don't agree with some of their tactics, because they definitely have way too much of a civilian toll, but I also need to remember the position they are in. If the Israelis didn't have the ability to respond like this, they would probably be attacked more than they are now (although it would be nice to think that everyone could figure their shit out without blowing each other up...but we know how that goes).

All this is just a reminder to everyone thinking of starting shit with them that they are going to make you pay.

Personally, I see both sides of the issue and if asked, really couldn't say what the best course of action there is. The US involvement there is substantial and without our support it would be a very different situation for the Israelis. In all out war, they would be fighting for survival. Israel is a tiny, tiny place and there isn't anywhere to go.

The worst part is without a doubt the civilians who get caught up in it. I would definitely be interested in seeing what number of militants vs. civilians were killed in this last raid. Anyone know? If it were like 10 militants vs 190 civilians, it would be way different than if it was 150 militants vs 50 civilian (which again, is still fucked).

Dec 27 2008 2:12PM

0 0

Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018

Karma: 10,018

Posts: 10447

Crazy Fool

I gotta say, those CNN photos are hard to look at. It would be utterly insane if that is where you lived, the stress and anger from that situation would just be so overwhelming. Definitely feel for all those people :(....

Dec 27 2008 2:15PM

0 0

patrickstar

Posts: 486 - Karma: 20

Karma: 20

Posts: 486

Ridiculous

thats true

Dec 27 2008 2:39PM

0 0

Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575

Karma: 4,575

Posts: 2987

Addict

for every man woman and child in Israel the united states gives approx. $22,000 to the Israel government in "support"

bottom line is that "terrorism" is subjective, its only terrorism to the party its being inflicted on, a lot of the things the United States does appear to be like terrorism in middle eastern countries. We give Israel the best planes and tanks and nuclear weapons, and they go to the Palestinians and kill 170 of them in a single strike. you live in Palestine and have fighter jets circling over your city, how could you be pro America?

just saying, and im sure some of you disagree with what im saying.

Dec 27 2008 2:57PM

0 0

RudyGarmisch

Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844

Karma: 13,844

Posts: 25443

@th1337

Rallies and protests around the middle east today. Israel is really trying to wage war against the Palestinian people on this one. Sure, a few rockets back and forth, but really, air strikes targeting civilians? Gaza is pretty much a refugee camp at this point.

Dec 27 2008 4:12PM

0 0

greenman

Posts: 945 - Karma: 27

Karma: 27

Posts: 945

Insane

yeh this could end up bad for alot of people and i bet this wil somehow affect us over here

Dec 27 2008 6:02PM

0 0

BravoWhiskey5280

Posts: 4020 - Karma: 520

Karma: 520

Posts: 4020

No Life

in this world it doesn't really matter what Gaza is right now. You can argue against me, but that place is a straight up shit hole and will always be a shit hole. It inhabits several terrorists organizations in which the government supports. Ask your self the question that if you lived in a country that had radical Islamic terrorist groups virtually surrounding and wanted to take you out for some stupid reason, would you put up with it? Would you put up with the constant attacks form inside and outside your country killing civilians? The Israelis security and military tactics are some of, if not the best tactics in the world. Countless number of business facility's across the world are trained in seminars by the Israelis to gain knowledge in counter-terrorism, trust me its my dads job. If you ask me, the US should join the fight cause they'd probably put a more effective stop against terrorism by fighting in Gaza. If your an American then you should support this. Now don't get mad at me for saying that, cause i know that killing civilians is terrible. But in this day in age people have to wake up in realize that thats what its gonna take if you don't wanna live in a fucked up world. War has always taken the lives of civilians and will continue to, its simple history. YOU CANNOT WIN A WAR WITHOUT RISKING THE LIVES OF CIVILIANS. Its never happened and never will.

Dec 27 2008 7:19PM

0 0

RudyGarmisch

Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844

Karma: 13,844

Posts: 25443

@th1337

Terrorism is relative. Hamas has popular support among Palestinians, and is effectively their political party of choice. Not just a rag-tag group of fundamentalists.

I wont disagree that Israel is surrounded by enemies, but I think things have been made worse, not better, by Israels handling of the situation. Israel makes constant incursions into Palestinian territory, places settlements and bulldozes Arab homes. Nobody in their right minds will stop them, because they pretty much are the US when it comes to the Middle East. Fuck with them, they'll use their ridiculously generous army against you, or failing that, call in its big buddy, Mr USA, to save them. They act however they want to because they know no country can stop them.

Also, I'm an American and I dont support Israel, if you havent guessed. Why should we all rally behind senseless killing and disregaurd for rules and rights?

And to me, theres a difference between civilian casualties and deliberately targeting or disregaurding civilians. Civilized countries know the diffrerence.

Dec 28 2008 2:06AM

0 0

Dustin.

Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704

Karma: 7,704

Posts: 13839

Crazy Fool

Doubtful. This is not new...they have been doing shit back and forth for thousands of years.

Dec 28 2008 2:36AM

0 0

Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683

Karma: 683

Posts: 21463

@th1337

both countries are ridiculously fucked up, and neither one is right. however i agree that im sick of the mindless support of israel. they would just as much love to see palestine, and the rest of the muslim nations around them wiped out, as they would israel. they kill innocent civilians, cut them off from food, water, etc.

on the other side palestine fires rockets into israel, not to mention suicide bombers etc, however considering the oppression they face, i can see where it comes from. that doesnt in any way legitimize it, but i can understand the frustration and anger.

bottom line neither country should be receiving outside military/monetary support. humanitarian aid, and encouraging peace talks and non violent means of finding an agreement should be encouraged

Dec 28 2008 3:22AM

0 0

Hood.[scdb]

Posts: 564 - Karma: 14

Karma: 14

Posts: 564

Ridiculous

terrible.

Dec 28 2008 3:38AM

0 0

whattheshit

Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107

Karma: 107

Posts: 6562

No Life

its sad yes, it wasn't israels intention to kill civilians. but when hamas holds their own people hostage by putting their security hq's in densely populated civilian areas what do you expect.

Dec 28 2008 4:06AM

0 0

skiminnesota

Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429

Karma: 429

Posts: 9093

Crazy Fool

iggyskier FTW!

Dec 28 2008 11:56AM

0 0

scsilversetin

Posts: 12 - Karma: 10

Karma: 10

Posts: 12

Newb

Remember, Israel and hamas had a cease fire for the past six months that hamas broke. IN the past year, homemade rockets from hamas have been gaining range and have gotten to the point where they have attacked major Israeli cities. INNOCENT ISRAELIES HAVE DIED when Hamas ended the cease fire. Israel has every right to protect itself. Its The british's fault for the middle eastern conflict. Check the history books.

While I was in israel over the summer for a month there were 2 terrorist attacks. 2 of them in one month. Security is so good in israel that they had to hijack bulldozers in order to attack israeli citizens. Israel is just like every democratic government. There are left and right sided politicians. Some wish uphold constant peace and others want to defend themselves.

Israel is not a shithole either, It is a very beautiful and technological country. It is sad that the area is being destroyed by bombs.

Dec 28 2008 3:00PM

0 0

Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683

Karma: 683

Posts: 21463

@th1337

again, here you are acting like this is a totally one sided incident here. the israelis are by no means perfect.

Dec 28 2008 3:32PM

0 0

rossiskier93

Posts: 781 - Karma: 103

Karma: 103

Posts: 781

Ridiculous

word... and iggyskier right on

Dec 28 2008 4:52PM

0 0

Flo_Rida_2016

Posts: 2804 - Karma: -5

Karma: -5

Posts: 2804

Addict

you forget that the muslims always attack first and its because they hate jews. especially jews in the jordan strip.

Dec 28 2008 4:58PM

0 0

steezeonskeeze

Posts: 351 - Karma: 14

Karma: 14

Posts: 351

Loner

i don't understand how when a couple canadian soldiers die everyone makes a huge deal but hundreds of our enemies are killed and they keep on fighting, they feel the same as Canadians would, its not a war anymore. Its a massacre.

Dec 28 2008 5:24PM

0 0

Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683

Karma: 683

Posts: 21463

@th1337

i am way too tired to look up stats, but i HIGHLY doubt the muslims always attack first.

not to mention that the US basically tore apart palestine to make israel, and then israel started shit to take over even MORE territory than the US had allotted to them

OR the whole part about the israelis hating jews just as much. or that not everyone on EITHER side is a fundamentalist crazy.

Dec 29 2008 4:14AM

0 0

ferrinski86

Posts: 774 - Karma: 10

Karma: 10

Posts: 774

Ridiculous

the part where you said the "US basically tore apart palestine to make israel.... and that the US had alloted them" may be true but that has nothing to do with the fighting IMO. theses nations have been fighting over that land for thousands of years. nothing is going to change until one or the other wipes each other off the map, plain and simple.

The other funny thing is that Our government made a formal statement todays saying "enough is enough, the fighting needs to stop." i laughed at that. like they are going to stop killing each other over thousands of years because we said they need to stop. idiot government.

Dec 29 2008 1:55PM

0 0

Campeador

Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227

Karma: -1,227

Posts: 7516

Crazy Fool

Israel should have moved all the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank and into Jordan where they all belong. Unfortunately, they missed the chance because of bullshit induced by the UN partition. Another failure of the UN. Jordan is the Palestinian homeland.

The Gaza strip should cease to exist as a Palestinian settlement. Send them all to the West Bank, it'll be one step closer to a "Palestinian" state. You can't have two separate areas of PA with different governments.

Dec 29 2008 2:22PM

0 0

Campeador

Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227

Karma: -1,227

Posts: 7516

Crazy Fool

Disproportionate response?

Since the first rocket fell on Israel on 16 April 2001: 3,706
Since the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in August 2005: 3,123
Since the Hamas takeover of Gaza in mid-June 2007: 1,685
This year:
- From 1 Jan through 30 Nov 2008: 1,212

"When Israel strikes at Hamas, it makes every attempt to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas actively targets children; it targets kindergartens and schools, as well as civilians - because this conforms with its extremist values. Our own values are completely different. There is no point in placing Israel and Hamas in the same moral equation. We strike at Hamas, who use civilians as human shields; Hamas deliberately targets civilians. Hamas does not care what happens to the residents of Gaza."

"Israel left Gaza in order to create an opportunity for peace. In return, the Hamas terror organization took control of Gaza and is using its citizens as cover while it deliberately targets Israeli communities and denies any chance for peace.

We have tried everything to reach calm without using force. We agreed to a truce through Egypt that was violated by Hamas, which continued to target Israel, hold Gilad Shalit and build up its arms.

Israel continues to act to prevent humanitarian crisis and to minimize harm to Palestinian civilians. Unfortunately, Hamas cynically abuses its own civilian population and their suffering for propaganda purposes. The responsibility for harm to civilians lies with Hamas.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, supported by Iran, that does not represent the legitimate national interests of the Palestinian people but a radical Islamist agenda that seeks to deny peace for the peoples of this region."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/The+Hamas+war+against+Israel-+Statements+by+Israeli+leaders.htm

Dec 29 2008 2:38PM

0 0

coolhandluke

Posts: 4465 - Karma: 153

Karma: 153

Posts: 4465

No Life

by the "US" you mean "UN"????

you might want to learn some history before attempting to discourse this again.

try researching the british mandate of palestine.

once again in my super-biased-mind; the lasting effects of european colonialism continuing to cause problems today.

Dec 29 2008 2:57PM

0 0

Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575

Karma: 4,575

Posts: 2987

Addict

i hate America, i cant believe that after Israel attacks, they don't even wag a finger at them.

fucking bullshit 170 people dead? all of them were militants?! right ok

Dec 29 2008 3:16PM

0 0

Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683

Karma: 683

Posts: 21463

@th1337

yeah sorry i meant un, but it was 3 in the morning, my brain wasnt functioning. lol im not that retarded.

Dec 29 2008 3:25PM

0 0

Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683

Karma: 683

Posts: 21463

@th1337

no offense, but wasnt this said by an israeli? of course they would say that. and im not trying to legitimize hamas. they are an awful terrorist organization. im just trying to say that israel really isnt better, and this ridiculous support of them needs to stop.

Dec 29 2008 3:28PM

0 0

Campeador

Posts: 7516 - Karma: -1,227

Karma: -1,227

Posts: 7516

Crazy Fool

If Israel goes down, you can be sure they'll do their best to bring their friendly neighbors with them.

Hamas is the main culprit. Period. They must be eliminated, they hide behind civilians because they are cowards. Therefore, its is unavoidable that some civilians get caught in the crossfire. And since they did elect the terrorist Hamas government democratically, I'd say some of them deserve it.

That statement may have been said by an Israeli, but its spot on. If the Palestinians weren't so fucking stupid, they'd have their own state by now. They're always shooting themselves in the foot.

Dec 29 2008 4:09PM

0 0

Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683

Karma: 683

Posts: 21463

@th1337

ill give you that. but hamas seems to have pretty much blown that out by now.

Dec 29 2008 4:11PM

0 0

ax_murderer

Posts: 3322 - Karma: 30

Karma: 30

Posts: 3322

Addict

how do you know which is the real number?

Dec 29 2008 4:21PM

0 0

Dustin.

Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704

Karma: 7,704

Posts: 13839

Crazy Fool

Why is it always America's responsibility to fix every bad thing that ever happens in the world? If we don't we are selfish and wrong, if we do we should be damned to hell for getting into other people's business. The new administration is going to pretty much cut off interaction with the world's problems it seems, so maybe we can just sit back and watch the world burn. I get so frustrated by how much our country does to help other countries only to be targeted as a hateful and selfish nation.

Maybe if another country in the UN did anything other than tell the US what we should do I would give a fuck what they say. UN = US soldiers.

Dec 29 2008 4:39PM

0 0

Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575

Karma: 4,575

Posts: 2987

Addict

well the fact that those are American made jets, and American made bombs being dropped in Palestine, is how i figure that the US is somehow responsible. the fact that after the haulocost the UN decided not to leave the jewish people where they are but rather supplant them in the middle east, knowing that that would spark age old wars, the fact that Israel is on the offensive here and the only thing we do is tell the palestinians to lay down there weapons, why the hell would they do that?!

When a bomb dropped by Isralies falls on a school and they are pulling shrapnel with English writing on it out of the children's torn up bodies, tell me what you think they are going to do?

Dec 29 2008 5:37PM

0 0

Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018

Karma: 10,018

Posts: 10447

Crazy Fool

I am gonna write a longer thing up when I have a bit of time, but that is basically the issue.

You don't see the Israelis bombing the Fatah controlled West Bank. Hamas did break the ceasefire, this latest round of Israeli strikes is no surprise to anyone, even most in the Arab world.

The Gaza strip is basically a refuge camp, which sucks because the civilians get caught in the crossfire. But you need to remember that Gaza is fucking packed with people and Hamas is well known for using civilian homes/area for launching attacks. There is what, 1.5 million people there? And not a ton of land.

It sucks that so many civilians die in this. It sucks that the Palestinians are pretty much getting fucked right now, but it isn't as cut as dry as that. It is just way complicated and you are talking about issues that have been around for forever....

I feel for the Palestinians just trying to live who were killed in both these and past attacks, as I do for the Israelis (although a much smaller number) killed in the missile attacks from Hamas, many of which are fired from civilian locations in Gaza.

It is a fucked situation anyway you cut it. IMO, unless Hamas decides to change its approach to the Israelis than nothing is going to be resolved. There is no way Hamas is going to beat the Isrealis, and there is no way peace is going to be reached in their current state.

The arab world is not as unified as it seems, either. The Fatah and Hamas hate each other. The Egyptians are exactly huge fans of the Palestinians. Same is true for the Jordanians and the Lebanese.

As I said, I will write more when I have a bit nof time. That whole region is so incredibly convoluted it is amazing. I would love to see peace there because I am sure everyone there, deep down, would like to have some semblence of a normal, peaceful life (not counting the jealots on both sides) But right now, that is definitely not the case.

Dec 29 2008 6:22PM

0 0

Dustin.

Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704

Karma: 7,704

Posts: 13839

Crazy Fool

Israel is on the offensive? Weird because I thought they have made treaty's with Palestine many times, and Palestine responds by lobbing rockets over the border. Do you know what the hell you are talking about? We sell planes to many countries, that doesn't make us responsible. That's like blaming Boeing for the war in Iraq because the US uses Boeing aircraft. Don't tell me crap like that above, that's just an idiotic thing to say.

Dec 29 2008 6:33PM

0 0

sconniestyle

Posts: 3945 - Karma: 26

Karma: 26

Posts: 3945

Addict

great points all around (and i loved the green=wants to kill you map earlier too), but just one thing- hamas didnt break the cease fire, it expired on its own accord.

it was a 6 month cease fire, and it actually expired a few days or so before the initial rocket attacks on the weekend.

i think the israeli strategy of bombing the tunnels used for supplies into the embargoed area is going to punish the non-militants in the area to a great degree, but as wilkes said up there^^^ if hamas would stop using the civilian neighborhoods as "shields" for their operations headquarters and hideouts, civilian casaulties would be way down.

Dec 29 2008 6:33PM

0 0

Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018

Karma: 10,018

Posts: 10447

Crazy Fool

I thought I had read that rocket attacks had been going on PRIOR to the end of the ceasefire? If I read incorrectly, then my mistake.

And yeah, what is comes down to is that Hamas uses civlllians areas for launching their attacks. The Palestinians living in Gaza will continue to take the brunt of the Israeli response as long as this occurs. I am sure the Israelis are hoping that at some point that the Palestinians living in Gaza will be more forceful in preventing Hamas from launching rocket attacks from civilian homes, but that is definitely not going to be easy. If Hamas showed up at my house and said we are gonna fire these rockets or kill you, what would you do?

Again, it just fucking sucks. A military operation in Gaza would have incredibly high casualties on both sides. A ground operation to take Hamas out would just be crazy.

Again, right now, neither side is going to win in the current situation. Something needs to change. That is going to be extremely hard considering all of the anger and history on both sides.

Dec 29 2008 6:42PM

0 0

Scandinavia

Posts: 76 - Karma: 22

Karma: 22

Posts: 76

Wannabe

There is no doubt that the situation is very complex. Though what is hard to argue about is the brutality of the current bombings. Hundreds of civilians are getting killed and whether or not the target is Hamas that is not acceptable. One could only hope for that USA massively condemns Israel´s behavior and put a stop to their madness.

It comes as a surprise to me that a lot of people on here not are aware of the massive support Israel receives from USA. Not only weapons but also the huge economic funding.

Why is that?

Who are the wealthiest and most powerful people in the US?

No racism/hating, just a fact.

Dec 29 2008 9:39PM

0 0

Canuker

Posts: 4730 - Karma: 165

Karma: 165

Posts: 4730

No Life

this fucking sickens me, i am actually fucking disgusted. All this shit goes on for practically no reason. far to many innocent people are being killed. This shit should stop but it wont because are world is fucked.

Dec 29 2008 10:05PM

0 0

Posts: 21463 - Karma: 683

Karma: 683

Posts: 21463

@th1337

no your right. im pretty sure they started a couple days BEFORE the ceasefire ended. at least thats what ive read

Dec 29 2008 10:29PM

0 0

Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018

Karma: 10,018

Posts: 10447

Crazy Fool

Just to be clear, you are saying there is huge military and financial American support for Israel because the "wealthiest and most powerful people in the US" are Jewish?

Dec 29 2008 11:54PM

0 0

Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018

Karma: 10,018

Posts: 10447

Crazy Fool

Ok. Is it awful for the civilians?

Definitely. it sucks for those civilians killed here.

But Hamas is launching rockets from areas where there will be civilians casualties. Are the Israelis supposed to just say "Well.....ok. Keep shooting rockets at us. We won't respond because you shoot rockets from the homes of civilians. Shoot them from areas where our response will not kill civillians."

Give me a break. Again, IT SUCKS that civilians are caught in the crossfire. It sucks that to respond to Hamas, the Israelis need to attack targets where there will be a civilians toll.

But that is where the targets are, and that is where they are going to attack.

The Israelis are FAR from blameless and they have done many, many fucked up things throughout this conflict.

But in this lasts round of violoence, they are responding to aggression from Hamas, plain and simple. If the areas that the Israelis must target to precent the further aggression from Hamas involve civilians casualties, it sucks, but that is obviously not going to deter the Israelis in the least.

Go back to the first thing I said in this thread. The Israelis do not fuck around. They just don't.

You shoot rockets at their citizens and regardless of where you are shooting them from, whether it be a Hamas police station or the top of the house of a family of ten, shit is gonna be coming back at you.

Regardless of how it seems, I am not 100% Pro-Isreali. I think what they did to the infrastructure of Lebanon in 2006 was way way overkill. The Lebanese paid dearly for the actions of Hezbollah, and I think overly so. But right now the Isreali response is to Hamas aggression, and REGARDLESS of if that aggression is warranted or not, it is not going to improve the situation in the area at all.

I honestly believe, as the Israelis do, that as long as Hamas is a significant power in Gaza, there can be no peace.

Dec 30 2008 12:13AM

0 0

Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575

Karma: 4,575

Posts: 2987

Addict

what part of "the unites states completely funds and arms the Israel air force" do you not understand? we fucking own Israel, its the only country in the un that has voted the same as the united states 100 percent of the time

"An American team will land in Israel in July to finalize the deal. Israel currently receives an annual $2.4 billion in military aid."

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3415479,00.html

^^^^^
originally what i was gonna say

however given the political knowledge and ammout of independent news and facts that newschoolers read, im going to withdraw my previous statement seeing as that i am the only muslim person on ns, and that im trying to convince people with heavily entrenched beliefs.

Dec 30 2008 12:48AM

0 0

pmills

Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59

Karma: 59

Posts: 7162

Crazy Fool

although you'll probably evoke the responses from the close minded, you're also providing invaluable insight to other members, i say post up.

Dec 30 2008 1:40AM

0 0

pmills

Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59

Karma: 59

Posts: 7162

Crazy Fool

Dec 30 2008 2:06AM

0 0