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Skiers are consumers, but how do we change?

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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,010
Alright, so I've reached a major snag in my morals last night. You see, I am trying very very hard to be as little of a consumer as possible. My only flaw with that is my need to ski. Now, normally this wouldn't present a problem. A pair of skis, bindings, boots, goggles... In the most extreme sense, that is all you need to buy that has non-renewable products in it. All other items needed to ski (pants, hat, jacket, gloves, etc) can be made from hemp and other materials that aren't harmful to the planet and humans alike.

My problem is: This season I bought a new pair of skis along with bindings to go on them. Yesterday was my third day (third half day) skiing on them and the binding broke. The binding broke in such a way that the whole binding needs to be sent back so I can get new ones. I have a couple problems with this. The first (and most obvious) problem is the durability of the binding. Why would a company make a binding that breaks so easily? The other problem I have with this, is how the binding is designed so that when one piece breaks the whole binding is rendered useless. There's all this plastic and metal that was harvested from the earth to create this binding that had a lifetime of less than 12 hours of use. Now look into the resources that went into not only harvesting the materials and turning them into said binding. But the packaging and shipping to the store from the factory, now from the store back to the factory so they can send me out yet another pair of bindings that will most likely break again. And what is to happen with the broken binding? Seams like a waste of resources to me.

I have been a advocate for such actions in the past, but at the time I was young and didn't even care to think about such a thing in this light. It was during the first few years that twintip skis were being manufactured and sold. I shit you not, I went through 4 or 5 NEW skis in one season because they would break on me.

This problem now goes spiraling out of control when looking at the industry as a whole. Unlike snowboarders we are stuck with the bindings on the skis. So every pair of skis you want, you need bindings to compliment them. Back before "freeskiing" everyone had one pair of skis. Now-a-days everyone is talking about a quiver. Urban skis, Park skis, Pipe skis, Rock skis, Inbounds powder skis, BC Booter skis, Slackcountry skis, Touring skis. The worst part about all of it is our need to fit in. Everyone (well, almost everyone) is under the mentality that if you don't have the newest gear you're somehow not as cool as those that do. So even though your jacket is still functional you go out and buy a new jacket because you heard that purple is in this year.

This problem goes right to the top where you have pro's preaching about "Keep Winter Cool" and "Protect our Winters" etc... Lets look at these pro's that are behind the "POW" movement. They have pro models that are new every year, each year they have a new pro model jacket, if they're not out in the backcountry all winter riding around in their sleds it's because they're flying heli's around everywhere... What are they actually doing to change things? That being said, there are some companies that are making small improvements towards a smarter future. Travis Rice and Quicksilver made a Jacket that is made from non-carcinogenic, renewable, organic materials. Planet Earth and Holden are making organic outerwear that is a better alternative, and some board companies like Arbor are making boards out of more sustainable materials such as bamboo. Ski Video production companies such as Absinthe and PBP who use 100% bio-degradable and recyclable materials for their casing.


Earlier this winter (I guess you could say it was in the fall) I came to the realization that if that small small chance of making it in the skiing world comes along I will in fact say NO. I do not want to take a sled out, I would much rather skin places than destroy them (hopefully on less harmful skins than the ones available today), the only time I will ever get into a helicopter is if I'm being sent on a treeplanting mission. I am beginning to actively try and make the main street in my town a "no idle zone" as well as looking into what it will take to make a free shuttle to bring people to the hill and back so everyone doesn't have to drive. Last week my jacket fell apart (zipper fell off, cuffs fell apart, pockets were coming undone) and instead of going out to buy a new jacket for $250+ I brought it down to the dry cleaners where they fixed it and cleaned it for $35. Sure, the jacket is three years old, but does that make me any less cool? Who cares. Cool isn't real.

I feel as though I have lost most of you, because normally when I wrote a thread that is long almost all of you who reply didn't actually read my post. I guess I'll do spark notes?

spark notes: in a world of needs and wants, you must be very careful in deciding what it is you really need, or what "they" tell you what you want.
Dec 23 2008 3:23PM
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123ski
Posts: 7374 - Karma: 1,415
If skiers didn't buy new stuff every year "parabolic skis" never would have been invented.  Which means that sidecut would have never been invented.  twin tips never would have been invented.  Rocker never would have been invented.  Reverse sidecut never would have been invented.  Why?  Because even today the people who are most likely to have reverse sidecut skis, or rockered skis are the ones that buy new skis every year.   3 years ago the people who were most likely to have twin tips or fat skis were the ones who bought skis every year.  7 years ago the people who were most likely to have "shaped skis" were the ones who bought new skis every year.  10 years ago the people who were most likeley to have "parabolic skis" and non-rear entry boots were the ones that bought new skis every year.  15-20 years ago the people who were most likely to have DIN bindings were the people who bought new stuff every year.

This could go on and on and on.  Basically, if you stop consuming, the sport stops progressing.  It sucks, I know, but what are you gonna do.
Dec 23 2008 5:18PM
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1990
Posts: 1787 - Karma: 52
I read the whole post.


My thoughts?

You are a hippie.



Sadly you won't change the world. Your thoughts seem right, although you may take things a bit far.

Hemp Clothing while skiing? Seriously?
Dec 23 2008 5:19PM
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nathanielstyza
Posts: 1638 - Karma: 38
i agree with most of what you said(i did in fact read the whole thing) and I respect your attempts to "change" how you see fit. I think it goes deeper though, and not only are skiers consumers, humans are just consumers in general. Although we can all do our part(which is needed), in the end it has to come down to the big corporations. we cant buy eco-friendly pruducts if they are too worried about their short term paychecks to make them.
Dec 23 2008 5:20PM
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skodeo7
Posts: 14949 - Karma: 9,234
"Travis Rice and Quicksilver made a Jacket that is made from non-carcinogenic, renewable, organic materials. "

ha! T Rice's biodegradable jacket hardly makes up for the emissions created by That's It That's All.
Dec 23 2008 5:21PM
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1990
Posts: 1787 - Karma: 52
May be we should kill every cow on this planet. Because when they fart, our atmosphere takes a heavy hit every time
Dec 23 2008 5:28PM
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nathanielstyza
Posts: 1638 - Karma: 38
actually we should trap it with methane combustion systems.
methane can actually be used to run cars. no lie
Dec 23 2008 5:33PM
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MT_Mike
Posts: 382 - Karma: 73
haha.

real shit though, i read your entire post, and i think we all share a common belief in preservation of our planet, however, you and i both know kids are going to keep following in the footsteps of what is 'cool' the tall t's, purps this year... etc, like you said. i feel ya though.
Dec 23 2008 5:45PM
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joey.
Posts: 2087 - Karma: 3,337
interesting
Dec 23 2008 6:26PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
that sounds about as safe as the new h-bomb cars.
Dec 23 2008 6:30PM
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C.R.E.A.M
Posts: 2987 - Karma: 4,575
regarding the whole why make non durable products?

A. because having to replace 1 binding is less costly then having every binding be durable enough for every level of rider.

B. because you obviously cannot go buy a higher performance binding for that price, if you can and you didn't then that's your fault.

C. lets face it, some people just go out and pay the cash that day to replace broken stuff, and that boosts sales.


its just common business sense, its kinda dirty but its capitalism at its finest 
Dec 23 2008 6:32PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
I've come to a point in my skiing life, that I no longer need to buy new stuff. My stuff isn't great, and it what is cool. It works (somewhat). Being at this point is great. I dont have to buy new stuff. It also coincides with me having no money. so it kinda works out.

people are always going to buy new stuff. companies will always come out with new and better stuff each year. It's just companies needed to make money. Cars were originally meant to last a lifetime. Ford then saw it could make more money by coming out with more colors and models each year, so people wanted the newer and better car. theres not much you can do to stop people.
Dec 23 2008 6:35PM
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eljefe
Posts: 915 - Karma: 467

In a sense you could say that by trying to be "un-cool" to the 'newschool' scene, you are fitting a different demographics version of cool. 

Its pretty clear that you don't snowmobile also.  Sledding will make you want to forget about cool real fast, quit skiing altogether and hang out 50 miles away from anybody day in and day out all winter. 

Dec 23 2008 7:18PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,720
good post, I think about that all the time when I shop for almost everything.
For broken stuff, the plastic and metals can be recycled to make another one. The old gear can be broken down and the materials can be extracted and sold. If your looking for a business, there is an idea.

Does companies "make" us spend? the answer is no. Its the people enforcing the fashion that force you to buy new equipment, even if you dont need it. Fashion is a powerful thing. You should remember there is a difference between "need" and "want". The need is the essential and the want is anything fashionable.

You brought up a good point, does company purposely make products only strong enough to last one season? I found out that no, but if fashion requires it, yes. I looked at cheap rip offs and expensive companies. North face equipment last forever, so consumers will be interested because it is cheaper in the long run. In the other extreme, Oakley make flimsy products, but back all their products with posters and ads to convince you its quality. Basically its up to the consumers. Marketers are paid to find next year's fashion, and if it fails, make it look like its next year fashion.

Capitalism is an ugly thing...money at all cost disgusts me because we tend to forget whats important. When the economy goes tits up, environment becomes unimportant all of a sudden. We are so afraid of losing our extravagant lifestyle.
Dec 23 2008 7:33PM
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backwardsrider
Posts: 543 - Karma: 70
http://store.hempest.com/catalog/
Dec 23 2008 8:03PM
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Dukeybrains
Posts: 1030 - Karma: 11
Buying all new fancy new fancy renewable shit is a lot less responsible than not buying anything at all.

just don't buy new shit, use your old shit or buy stuff used.

And buying clothes made with renewable recources doesn't mean you're not a consumer. You are still consuming.
Dec 23 2008 8:07PM
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nathanielstyza
Posts: 1638 - Karma: 38
my friend(who happens to be a socialist) explained his view on capitalism to me and this is what i got out of it. Capitalisim in and of itself is not a necessarilly bad thing. clearly our system of gov't is pretty bad but capitalism has created some pretty great things. his view was that we need to alter the current system that already has hugely impressive attributes for the better. it can go either way pretty easily from this point on.

i dont know if this applies directly but thats what i think
Dec 23 2008 8:08PM
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Shifties4Dayz
Posts: 1657 - Karma: 553
Don't hate on hippies....


But i agree with most of what was said. Yes, people are extremely wasteful and at some point in time the planet will completely consume and destroy itself. On a long enough time line the survival rate for EVERYTHING is 0. but without people consuming way more than they need to, skiing would never be what it is today.
Dec 23 2008 8:09PM
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Dukeybrains
Posts: 1030 - Karma: 11
I have to admit I only read the first paragraph of your little essay before posting. I did just read the rest of it though and I definitely agree. Sorry, I thought this was gonna be another one of those "look at all this brand new hemp outerwear I bought aren't I great!!" threads.

As far as progressing the sport vs. consumption goes.
    You don't need brand new outerwear every year to progress the sport, sure every once in a while you need a new pair of skis or shit maybe you want to buy some of those fancy new shape skis. It's all about striking a balance.
Dec 23 2008 8:19PM
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CFD
Posts: 1009 - Karma: 197
This is so true. An organic jacket won't make up for hundreds of heli hours.

I respect the fact that you're trying to make a positive movement for this world, but I really think that avoiding consumerism in the ski industry is the wrong way to go. It's such a tiny contribution to the problem. Buying a jacket or a pair of skis once a season means nothing when you compare that to your transport, food, day-to-day clothing, electricity consumption, water consumption etc.

I think people get too focused on changing the small things, when we should be looking at the bigger picture.

This reminded me of one of Symms' blog posts. http://www.johnsymms.com/journal/?p=81
Dec 23 2008 8:28PM
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dwhite
Posts: 1499 - Karma: 32
maybe its not all about the consumption. the skiing industry is such a small thing and it might be hard to change things....that being said maybe it is more about the resorts....it takes an incredible amount of energy to run lifts all day and make snow round the clock....its more than just people buying to much
Dec 23 2008 8:41PM
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jca
Posts: 4171 - Karma: 6,311

We need to think bigger.  We don't need to be consumers, we could got back to the times of farmers and shit but that just won't happen in our age(maybe after 2012?).  But right now since we rely so heavily on major companies the only way to make an effective change would be for them to only use organic, renewable resources like hemp, bamboo, flax, soy and all that other shit.  You can make pretty much everything with hemp; fiber board that is stronger than 2x4s, non toxic hemp oil based paint, non-toxic plastic from the cellulose! (think of that, all plastics made from a bio-degradable renewable resource), rope, carpet backing, fiber board flooring, canvas (the word canvas actually comes from the word cannabis), paper that is wayy more durable and thinner then wood paper (most bibles and bank notes are made from hemp paper not to mention there would be no need for logging and bleaching the fibres), all clothing including jackets and snowpants (50% of the worlds herbicides and pesticides are used in processing cotton), bricks, roofing tiles, sealents and plumbing pipes can all be made from hemp!

Hemp seed oil is also extremely nutritious, it contains the essential fatty acids (skiers need these to keep joints healthy), and complete proteins.  hemp seed oil can be used in cooking instead of vegetable oil.  Hemp seeds are also high in fibre and other stuff that I forget.

You can make bio-fuel out of hemp which is a very, very clean burning oil.  When gasoline burns, it gets shit realll duurty and if you see the inside of an exhaust pipe or engine you will see that they are very dirty.  Some scientists ran a car on hemp biofuel for 3500 miles and they could wipe the exhaust pipe with a white glove without it getting dirty.

The reason hemp, soy, flax, bamboo and other amazing plants aren't used is because the biggest companies (DuPont) have patents on plastic production and the wood-pulp paper suphide process.  Using hemp tp it's fullest abitlities there would be hardly any demand for synthetic fibres, nylon, plastic, cotton, wood-paper, fossil fuels, and many other products.

To learn more about this I encourage everyone to read this -  http://www.ukcia.org/industrial/hemp/contents.html

- http://www.jackherer.com/

peace, love, vibes

Dec 23 2008 9:09PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,085
Our society and what it is based on is consuming. There is a natural basis for this, as we can't live without food and shelter. We've expanded this to allow us to live in areas were we couldn't without technology (it's 11 degrees outside my house) and to do things that we wouldn't be able to do without the help of the things that we consume.

Skiing as most of us know it has horrible consequences for the environment we live in. We drive to get to the ski hill, the lifts are powered by electricity the comes from coal which pollutes or dams which destroy fish habitat and migrations, the clothes we wear and the skis on our feet are difficult to manufacture and full  of nasty stuff, and the runs we ski down are eroded and deforested. Groomers running on diesel all night long make the jumps that we hit or smooth the runs we ski, and the development of real estate or new ski areas wrecks habitat and wilderness.

Can you remove yourself from this? Not if you want to ski. You can pick up a touring setup, replace things only as they break, and farm your own food while living off the grid, but you'll still be somewhat stuck for replacement parts when your gear breaks and dependent on our economic system to get it to you.

To further this, close to 2 billion people on this planet are living on less than $2 US a day. Think of all the people that will experience the effects of potentially higher sea levels destroying their homelands, making your clothes in sweatshops, and having their resources used to create what you need to go skiing. What right do any of us have to exploit them or use our money in an activity that doesn't better their lives and actively affects the environment they live in?

We don't. We have no right to ski or live the way we do. That doesn't mean you shouldn't realize this or ignore it, because not caring at all will never lead to any change and make things worse. But do what you can. Reuse your jacket, carpool when you can, wash your clothes less, turn out the lights, recyle, and do whatever else you can. If you are doing what you can, be content with it.

There's no peace to be found in thinking about the particulars of this, but being mindful is essential. You will enjoy what you get that much more, and be grateful for each chance you have to ski.
Dec 23 2008 9:24PM
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BigJew
Posts: 6974 - Karma: 79
Go hug a tree.
Dec 23 2008 9:36PM
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jibbits56
Posts: 336 - Karma: 10
alright now i do agree with a few things, that people shouldnt be buying multiple pairs of skis per year, thats pretty outrageous, i mean for me, im gonna buy new skis when i feel i need them, then if my old skis are in tact, those are my urbans/shit skis, but dude, you gotta settle down, either you have bad luck, or your buying shitty skis and bindings, because i have had the same skis and bindings for the past year and a half, and they were cheap k2 silencers, and i beat the shit out of them last year, but they are still in ok conditions, nicks on the top sheet and some good scratches on the bottom, but hey they move, so im fine with em, and i understand your take on life, but binding companys can't keep loading up all of their bindings with a bunch of plastic just to keep it in tact for longer, cuz that would weigh down your ski, same with the skis, they try to make twin tips lighter, and flexible, this may take away a little from durability, but you know thats just somethin you'll have to deal with
Dec 23 2008 9:51PM
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rossta.
Posts: 455 - Karma: 247
this thread has proven to me that there are two main breeds of skiers here on NS.  those who care about the future of both our world and sport, what we're doing with it and how we control where it goes; and little kids who are too young to realize how important issues like this really are...probably just cuz their parents buy all their gear, year after year.

If i had time to rant, i would, but i agree with guys like guddulf, jeffmantea and drail.  We gotta act quick to take skiing in a better direction than the one its heading, with skiing already following the scenester snowboarder path where its all about fashion over function, how cool your 'crew' is, and where people start skiing just to get on MTV. 

All i can say is use your good judgement, support companies and people with bigger goals and dreams of a sport that dont just care about what color scheme youre wearing and whether or not it matches your skis/boots, or how long you held that safety grab on a super hucked 1080.  ultimately, its about everyone doing what they love to do, and doing it responsibly.   If we cant figure out a way to do it responsibly, evenutally none of us will be able to do it at all.  save skis, pow and trees for the kids.

and dont hate on hippies, they hold the only thread of reality left these days.
Dec 23 2008 10:04PM
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Funnel
Posts: 7815 - Karma: 1,531
To the first thing about making us buy stuff, you are spot on!  Just like people blame McDonald's for America's obesity issues.  We cannot blame them, you are to blame for buying there food, they are just trying to make a profit.  So next time someone blames our obesity problem on McDonald's, tell them it is the consumers fault not McDonald's.  Sorry, got sidetracked. 

You are totally right about North Face though.  I bought one of their jackets this year on sale because I outgrew my old one, which my brother wears now, and it has been a great jacket.  My friends tried telling me to cough up a lot of money on Oakley stuff, I told them it is a waste and they laughed.  My friend tells me how great his new Orage stuff is which was worth all $450+ while he complains about his pants getting tears from his edges down at the bottom.  I laugh while my $30 black Rawick pants without a button (safety pin) are more durable and do the same job (thanks Footloose).  I have a my black North Face jacket and black pants which will never really go out of style, will not get dirty, and will last me for a few years until I outgrow them again.  I am satisfied now and really excited to continue using them.  As for skis, I have rocked the same pair for the past year and this season, I am riding the same bindings I bought 6 years ago (Marker M900).  It does me fine, I can still ski better than my friend who coughed up $2000 for all his outerwear, Invaders, Griffons, and SPK boots.  I laugh while I buy some new googles used for 2 days that are in perfect condition for half price on here, that kill his crowbars.  For the same price as his crowbars, I got two pairs of Ransoms with two different lenses for different days for a few bucks more than his crowbars and I believe Scott is much better than Oakley.  The only reason I am getting new stuff is because I am growing, so if I am going to get new stuff, I figure, just buy the latest model.  Sorry for my rant.
Dec 23 2008 10:06PM
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wiener
Posts: 2247 - Karma: 63
Daryl you hippy
Dec 23 2008 10:11PM
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jibbits56
Posts: 336 - Karma: 10
dude you got the right ideas, i look for deals, i dont just go out and spend over 450 bucks on a coat, thats retarded, its a coat, it needs to keep you warm, but theres no need for this. My ski pants are awesome, they are 280 dollar north face beasts, but i got em for 80 thanks to marshalls, this is the stuff you gotta look for, and not just run out and buy the expensive coats that are nearly no different from one of the cheaper ones that are on sale. Half of the time you are just paying for the brand name, whether it be orage or oakley...
Dec 23 2008 10:13PM
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pscull03
Posts: 440 - Karma: 47

i think people should jsut be aloud to do what they feel

and its not like buying new stuff everyyear is speeding up the time of existence for earth

were probly gonna end up by gettin hit by another asteroid before anything happens anyway

Dec 23 2008 10:16PM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,085
You can believe what you want. What I said above is what I see, and if you don't agree with it, then I can't make you, and certainly won't force you to change.

However, there is a lot of truth in what Drail, jeffamantea and others have said, and if you ignore that, then you are refusing to even think about the problems, which is inexcusable. If you can feel good after thinking it through, then that's fine. But not thinking or not knowing is not.
Dec 23 2008 10:28PM
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backwardsrider
Posts: 543 - Karma: 70
a small group of people wont make a difference at first, but slowly like-minded people will catch on and there is potential for great change.
Dec 23 2008 11:09PM
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flying-ninja
Posts: 46 - Karma: 20
good thread
Dec 28 2008 11:46PM
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titsLOL
Posts: 7485 - Karma: 396
I only read the first paragraph and the spark notes... sorry. but from what I've gathered

a) you can not be a resort skier without being a consumer. even being a pure back country hiking skier would be nearly impossible.

b) skiing is by no means necessary, it is a complete luxury and instead of trying to justify it just appreciate that you are lucky enough to have the luxury.

sorry if that didn't even have anything to do with this, I'm not down with reading such a long thread right now. 
Dec 28 2008 11:54PM
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flying-ninja
Posts: 46 - Karma: 20

I think he means  that people should support the companies that are making the effort to use sustainable resources and be more efficient.

Dec 29 2008 12:35AM
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tim_ASP
Posts: 249 - Karma: 36
But i like buying new shit....
Dec 29 2008 12:39AM
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Dustin.
Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704
Well that would never happen since extreme environmentalist want animals to live better than humans.  Taking their farts would be stealing.
Dec 29 2008 12:42AM
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LIL_WAT
Posts: 1900 - Karma: 475
Dec 29 2008 12:43AM
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MEGAZORD
Posts: 4531 - Karma: -7
You can have mine.  The tacobell i just ate could power the jackson tram.
Dec 29 2008 12:44AM
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STwoops
Posts: 2941 - Karma: 5,126
companies are just too damn good at advertising, and we aren't educated enough to figure out what we need and what we don't need.
Dec 29 2008 12:54AM
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skodeo7
Posts: 14949 - Karma: 9,234
This man speaks the truth.
Dec 29 2008 7:39AM
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RastaRob
Posts: 90 - Karma: 299
Im afraid to say we are all consumers and we always will be, as long as you love to ski you will be a consumer.

Ever bought a ski pass?  think of the energy that is used to run ski lifts.

The answer is not to try and change people from being consumers because it will never happen, although i do agree that individuals can cut back in many areas.

The solution can only lie with the major companies and corperations, the responsability is on them to start producing more sustainable products. There is no reason why they cannot make tall tees ect from hemp and that they cannot use recycled plastics in bindings and so on.  The problem is that there will always be people who are all about the money and will always choose the cheaper option but as an industry we need to fight this.

If you want to help the situation, dont sit back and live in a cave and buy nothing for the rest of you life, dedicate yourself to finding solutions to these problems. Start producing ski clothin from hep that people want to wear, find a renewable source of energy that is readily available in the mountains to run ski lift. IMO THIS IS THE ONLY ANSWER!!
Dec 29 2008 8:21AM
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MEGAZORD
Posts: 4531 - Karma: -7
The reason is it is not cost effective.  It takes 2-3x the cost to make a tee out of hemp than it does cotton. 
Most things that are better for the environment, cost considerably more than their not so nice counterparts.  Only now is the whole green thing catching on, only because the marketing stands to make big companies some money
Dec 29 2008 8:35AM
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ski@jaypeak2
Posts: 2802 - Karma: 429
If you get a chance watch HEAD FOR THE HILLS there is a great section called the redneck rippers.  Its these dudes in Barre Vt that just ski the 500ft of vertical in there backyard.  Skin up it every time and get fresh tracks everyrun.  Shit they even make their own skis buy cutting old snowboards!!
Dec 29 2008 1:05PM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,010
i believe it was Freeskier mag that wrote a small article about a ski resort in new england somewhere that put in a windmill which powers over 60% of operations.

all the people in this world using dirty energy and don't think there's another way are the problem. those that believe sustainable energy is impossible are lost.

and i'm getting tired of all this talk going around about the cost of doing thing sustainably. Money isn't even real, it's a human made object that doesn't even keep it's value. What's the point of basing an entire 'economy' on something that can become worthless over night? We should be putting more value on the hemp than the cotton, without even bringing money into the situation.
Dec 29 2008 1:08PM
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PaleCelery
Posts: 7228 - Karma: 609
I spend a lot of time on the toilet, and I can vouch for this.
Dec 29 2008 5:51PM
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