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Re-mountable bindings?

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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
I just got my new Surface Watch Lifes in the mail and am planning on mounting them myself (i'm quite savvy with power tools).
I was wondering if it's possible to mount them in a similar way to telemark/snowboard bindings, with threaded inserts that can be re-used multiple times.
I don't see why it's not possible if I drilled larger holes and put the inserts in with a bunch of epoxy and maybe fiberglass shreds around them. (I've done my fair share of epoxy-work too).
This way I could change from center-mount for the park to suggested mount for a bit of powder (I know they're no powder skis)
Nov 1 2008 7:46PM
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Cant-Er
Posts: 1314 - Karma: 2,244
quite an interesting idea... it sounds like it could work but i highly doubt it could.  i'd ask the guys at my shop but they'd prob laugh at the question lol but idk try it on a beater pair of skis?
Nov 1 2008 9:35PM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Go an buy some brass inserts from your shop. You need the right drill bit for them though, just have them do it for you and you know it's done properly. They'll charge a lot to do 16 though.
Nov 1 2008 11:36PM
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EClay46
Posts: 2499 - Karma: 69
it would work fine but you might need to grind the screws of the binding a little bit because the insert would be a little shorter than the actual hole for the screw. but it should work fine if you can get the inserts in correctly
Nov 1 2008 11:38PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459

Not so sound like a prick, but its a rediculous idea.  It would work, in theory with brass inserts, but water would get into the ski and delam it from the inside out.

The inserts you see on snowboards and the old line skis were put into the core during pressing, not threaded in after.

Nov 2 2008 12:21AM
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skisquaw@420
Posts: 1802 - Karma: 13
. the core will definitely get waterlogged.

back in the day, before snowboarding kinda sorta standardized their binding patterns, there used to be these little T-nut things with p-tex on the bottom. you would drill through the board (or ski), then counterbore, and epoxy them in (this of course, voids the warrantee). any snowboard shop (or sometimes skis shop) should have some lying around. and any older snowboard technician would know what your talking about. you would probably still want to have the skis drilled with a jig first though, then use the binding holes as guides
Nov 2 2008 1:00AM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Snowboard t-nuts are a completely different thread, plus they wouldn't be long enough.

I read the thread again, don't do it if you're talking about putting two sets in. Like was said the unused ones won't be sealed so your cores will get fucked.

Suck it up and go just back on centre and be happy. Otherwise buy a set of rental bindings.
Nov 2 2008 4:15AM
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yewwwwwww
Posts: 182 - Karma: 46

from what i understand he'd try and put a waterproof layer (epoxy) in the holes before he screwed in the inserts. Is that right? cuz then if you placed a thin layer of glue (or threadlocker) on the thread on the outside of the insert it would hopefully make a waterproof seal. I can't remember if the inserts are flat on the bottom or not tho.

also you might need to use a re-sealable threadlocker on the binding screws as the threads arn't that tight and will need more strenght. i'd try it on a beat as shit old pair first. good luck. 

Nov 2 2008 6:47AM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
I don't see how you think they would be (much) different from ones on snowboards? the unused ones don't let water into the core on snowboards. It's just a matter of doing shit right and not being a horrible craftsman.
Nov 2 2008 5:34PM
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skisquaw@420
Posts: 1802 - Karma: 13
because to do shit right, you would need to do it during the layup of the ski. your trying to put multiple sets of holes into an already pressed ski. brass inserts wont work. the only time there will be a good seal in them will be when the screws are in them. and you could still use snowboards t-nuts, but you would have to get 6M threaded screw to replace your bindings wood screws. forgot about that part
Nov 2 2008 5:57PM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
I don't see how it would be impossible to make the inserts water-proof.
Or are you saying that the unused inserts would always let water it? because the unused ones in snowboards don't.
Nov 2 2008 11:00PM
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brenker
Posts: 3188 - Karma: 71

ok so im pretty sure I know what youtr talking about, your saying ur creating more of like a line reactor style binding with the built in brass holes so you could transfer bindings easier between skis, but with more holes in the ski for center or all mtn stances for adjustment

thatd be interesting id try it

Nov 2 2008 11:28PM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Snowboard ones are completely different. They are sealed.
Nov 3 2008 4:12AM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
its a little bit different..... snowboard inserts go in while the board is being made, not after the fact.
Nov 3 2008 5:31AM
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jib_danboy
Posts: 261 - Karma: 26
look into amplid slider plates... they might add a bit more weight but its worth it! ive got some antidogmas with them on they work great!
Nov 3 2008 7:34AM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
I am aware that inserts have always been put into the cores before any laminates. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to do it any other way. This would just need some innovation.
I'd love to make my own skis, of which I could easily put inserts into, but I want to be able to move bindings around on my skis this season.
Nov 3 2008 11:48AM
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LC.
Posts: 5952 - Karma: 2,423
Rental bindings. That's the only way.

The easier solution is just to man up and deal with it. Go -2cm.
Nov 3 2008 12:15PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
oh there are for sure ways to do it, but i just thought id post that, as you did seem to be comparing what you are trying to acomplish to the way snowboard inserts are done. Id say your best bet would be to put the inserts in, epoxy them and what not, and then lay fiberglass right over the inserts then redrill through the fiberglass to expose the individual insert holes.
Nov 3 2008 1:33PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459

Even then he would run into problems with when he moved them in the brass inserts.  Steel screws are harder than brass and would eventually get loose and strip out.

Really, the best way to do this was accomplised when Head came out with the MadTrix lifter that spun.  Problem is that you then need a smetrical ski to make it work...which sucks in pow anyway.

Nov 3 2008 1:46PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
i cant remember the thread but someone found a site where you can buy individual snowbard inserts, and you can buy inserts made of materials other than brass iam sure.
Nov 3 2008 1:54PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459

Are you dense?

We already ruled out snowboard inserts...you cant insert them after the ski is pressed.  And even if you could, there is the problem of finding hardware to fit into them that will work with your bindings.  They take machine screws.  M6 if I am not mistaken.  Make sure your pattern is exact, or it wont work and lock down tight to the surface of the ski.  But since you are mounting yourself, I am sure the pattern will be perfect...

Fine then, skipping snowboard inserts, there are brass helicoil inserts.  Drill a larger hole, epoxy iy watertight then thread these bad boys in.  Great.  The steel screw deforms the brass to make threads in it so it holds tight.  As soon as you take it out, the threads are open...Screw it in again, and a new set of threads is made, or the old set is deformed a little.  Eventually, the threads strip put and you are left with gaping holes in the ski.

Really, you are wasting your time with this.  The trade off of just puttting one set of holes in a ski vs. going through all the trouble you are going to have trying to make this work.  Take it from someone that has been mounting and helicoiling skis for the last 6 years...

...This is a stupid and pointless idea and you WILL end up fucking up whatever pair of skis you try it on.  And if you do get it to work, I am sure K2 will have a job for you, since they did this for 5 years on their tele skis, then decided to stop because they realized no one felt like changing their mounting position all the time.

Nov 3 2008 8:38PM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
There's no need to be a negative nancy about this.
It's pretty obvious that we are being fairly closed-minded about this, mostly because this really hasn't been done much before. I am certain that there are alternatives to brass inserts. There's probably some stainless steel or similar ones to be found. The fact is that they haven't been found, YET. I am certain that this is possible, but it would require some R&D to find the right inserts, the proper way to install them, and to see how well they stand up to abuse.
I am not one to give easily for things like this so you're wasting your time trying to talk me out of it.
If only skibuilders.com was a bit more active then maybe I could get some more creative people to help me out with this!

Also I don't give a shit if tele-skiers 5 years ago didn't buy into the multiple mounting systems. I am not a tele-skier from 5 years ago, I am an all-around skier in the present day who sees value in my idea. Feel free to keep throwing wood screws into your skis, I'll look for an alternative.
Nov 3 2008 9:11PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
https://newschoolers.com/web/forums/readthread/thread_id/368345/
Nov 3 2008 9:12PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
Yes...Helicoils...I drilled Colby West's pipe skis with those for the X-Games 2 seasons ago...they dont rip out...BUT ARE NOT MADE to have the bindings unscrewed and reattached multiple times.
Nov 3 2008 10:28PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459

You arent getting it...There are not stainless inserts that will work...mainly because they will maul the screws of your bindings.  It has been done and an insert will hold better than the screw themselves.  Pro skiers use inserts in their skis all the time...they dont even bother to drill regualr holes sometimes.  I mounted a pair for Colby West 2 years ago (slight claim) for his pipe skis at X.  Went right to inserts.  They hold awesome, but stainless or not, will not continue to hold if you keep unscrewing them and rescrewing them.

Really, it can be done, but your inserts will eventually fail, and possibly break your ski based on the fact you are removing more core material.

If you wan, I will gladly drill your skis and install the inserts (brass or the ones in that other thread, we have both at the shop) and ship them back to you.  Just tell me what binding, yourt boot sole, and where you want them mounted at.  I will gladly do it for free (just pay the inserts...about a dollar a piece).  But you will ruin the skis and it wont go anything like you are hoping it to.

Nov 3 2008 10:34PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
nice claim... lol. pics or it didnt happen. and im still pretty sure that it could be done. it would take alot of work and probably quite a few failed attempts..
Nov 3 2008 10:38PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459

Sigh...

No pics of drilling skis, but I have pics of hiking with him when we were still in college,before he even moved out to HN to dig... They are on my comp at home though.  Gimme a day or two to dig them up.  Jeez.  Here is a photo I took while we sessioned a rail in Lincoln NH Oct 31 2004. https://newschoolers.com/web/content/pictures/id/35534/member_id/50818/hide_header/1/

Jesus...cant you just listen to someone who knows what they are talking about?

Nov 3 2008 10:49PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
http://www.alpinecarving.com/images/t-nuts_sm.jpg

if i could find those in about 3 seconds, im sure you could find a heli-coil style insert that would work perfectly, along with the bolts to go along with them.
Nov 3 2008 11:04PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
t nuts were discussed in the thread.  A possible option, but try finding ski hardware to fit in them...Plus, you would have to drill large holes in the base of your brand new skis.
Nov 3 2008 11:16PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
i never said it would be a good idea, or something that i would ever do, iam just saying that it can be done if you really try hard enough. but iam sure you could find snowboard insert style helicoils that wouldnt require as big of a hole.
Nov 3 2008 11:19PM
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chazz.
Posts: 2721 - Karma: 23

(hypothetical scenario) say that you did figure out how to do like 2 sets of some type of inserts on one pair of skis in order to swap back and forth, could you possibly just cover up the set of holes that wasnt currently being used with tape? not like scotch tape but just a little piece of clear packing tape? i know its kind of a silly idea but if you were really that determined to have 2 sets would it work?

Nov 3 2008 11:20PM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
sorry for the double post, i accidentally hit reply half way through. theres still the whole mounting these inserts, and setting your bindings up correctly and what not, especially if youre not a certified tech.
Nov 3 2008 11:21PM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
You realize that to become a certified binding tech (to some extent) you just have to take an online test?

And to Japollner, I understand you saying that no 'conventional' method will work. I'm not trying to take something that's already being used (heli coil) and try to use it for remounting stuff. I also understand that you have lots of experience, but most of that experience is working with 'conventional methods'. This is an "outside the box" idea. There are plenty of ways to go about doing this, all of which don't include giving up based on a "binding tech's" online rebuttals.

And how would this "maul" my binding screws. Since I'm not dumb enough to use coarse thread screws in inserts that would obviously require finer threads then the original screws will be left safely in the box the bindings came in.

Think about skateboard truck mounting hardware. You could easily use some wood screws to screw the trucks directly into the board, making new holes, or you can approach things the practical way and have a set mounting position that can be used an indefinite number of times. (not saying the binding mounting system would be the exact same method)
Nov 4 2008 12:05AM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
Dude, I am over wasting time trying to explain this to you.  Go fuck up your skis if you really are that dead set on trying it and being "progressive" with the way you attach your binders to your skis.
Nov 4 2008 12:09AM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
All you've explained to me is how you have worked with bindings for a while, heli coils won't work, and you can't think of anything that will work.
I'd be very appreciative if you dove into the depths of your creativity and tried to help me innovate.

Also pros don't have to deal with having a 1 ski quiver, therefore would never need to re-mount ever.
Nov 4 2008 12:16AM
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yeahitsdave
Posts: 1315 - Karma: 10
the trick would be finding someone that can cnc a helicoil style insert and a screw that is both the partner to the insert and compatible with the binding.

i totally see what you're saying. the harder part would be figuring out how to get them to hold long term, as they wont be put into the core originally, and even fiberglassing over top of them after theyve been inserted wont hold them that well.

it would be awesome to see this as an option from some handmade companies, even if it was only laid up for one binding (say the px style hole pattern, as its used be a lot of companies) but you could give ur bsl and let them build the ski with the inserts with a few mounting positions
Nov 4 2008 12:22AM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
yeah, but you still have to attain the knowledge to pass the test. thats like me saying "oh yeah, i can be a ___, i just have to pass this test" most things in life have a test attached, its being knowledgeable enough to pass it. anyways, i would personally not do this to my own skis, since there is a huge margin for error,  you can fuck up your skis, fuck up yourself riding your insert mounted skis, and the only person accountable for what you do is yourself. i would save myself the risk of ruining a pair of skis, and get a second setup, or mount your one setup to be used for park and pow or whatever.
Nov 4 2008 12:25AM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
I've got some older skis that I'd try this on first. But I want to do it right the first time anyways.
Also, I have neither the money or space for a second set of skis. Nor do I ski enough powder to make use of a dedicated pair.

An ideal insert would be:
course threads to screw into the core
made out of a solid metal
have fine treads on the inside that screws can be put in/taken out many times
said fine thread screws, rather bolts, fit through holes in bindings.

Nov 4 2008 12:32AM
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yeahitsdave
Posts: 1315 - Karma: 10
http://www.machine-screw-anchor.com/machine-anchor-installation.htm with a threaded outside?
Nov 4 2008 12:43AM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
more or less. but yes, that's along the lines.
Nov 4 2008 12:55AM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
or something like this:

Click for larger image

But with more "wood screw"-like threads on the outside.
I don't like the fact in general that bindings are held in with wood screws. Very primitive.
Nov 4 2008 1:00AM
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yeahitsdave
Posts: 1315 - Karma: 10
Click for larger image
Nov 4 2008 1:01AM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
I've actually considered this idea several times before, but haven't figured out how I would do it so it would be reliable and decent...if you only moved them once or twice a year for trips or something...maybe.

I would say grab yourself some Tyrolia Railflex binders...they will let you do what you want to do...or some P12 demos, and I know there are some of those floating around the web for like $80 or something insanely cheap.
Nov 4 2008 1:08AM
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mmallender.
Posts: 5805 - Karma: 936
well considering the fact that ski cores are made of, yep, you guessed it, wood(maybe foam from time to time), i would expect nothing else other than wood screws to be used.
Nov 4 2008 4:40AM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
What is something that's very similar to skis, has a wooden core, but doesn't use wood screw? Snowboards!
They've got the right idea, the fact that it doesn't exist in current skis doesn't mean it shouldn't.
Nov 4 2008 1:23PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
It's because they can somewhat standardize the mounting...skis are a lot harder to do that with.
Nov 4 2008 1:42PM
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WONTON
Posts: 6951 - Karma: 55
retarrrdeddd. Snowboards do it! we can do it too!!!......no.
Nov 4 2008 2:07PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459

Here is the last thing I am going to contribute to this thread because a few of you are so caught up in being "different" and doing it "more progressivly" and getting a decent bang for the buck that you arent even thinking.

Line tried it with the Reactor...It failed.  But also because no one jumped on board to standardized the mount.  But the mounts were a pain because even if the insert was a tiny bit off (like 1/4 of a millimeter off) from the factory, it loosened up all the time.

K2 did it with their tele skis for bindings with the stadard tele mount.  Why didnt it catch on?  Because skis were breaking along the inserts because with extra core removed to fit the insert, the core was weak.  And this is in a tele set up where almost no force is exerted on the tip because of the binding dynamics of a tele set up.  So that is something else to consider.  Snowboards, because of how much wider they are than skis, have more core material to support the wood that is removed for the inserts.  And even with the extra support, boards still almost always break along the inserts.

Yes...t-nuts can work ans wil work well, but waterproofing the core will be an issue, along with a base that will look like this.

Click for larger image

Nov 4 2008 3:06PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459

Hey!! I even did some research...

Heres the inserts you would want:  http://www.ezlok.com/InsertsWood/softWood.html

Here is pricing for them:  http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PARTPG=IMLMKD&PMPXNO=8217907

HOLY SMOKES!  $10.50 each?!?!  Thats $80 per ski...$160 for the pair just for the inserts...oh well thats the price you would pay for being a "progressionist"

If you really want to do it, here is a thread.  Looks to be a bunch of guys who either say "wow thats too much money" or "i have no problem claiming it on my pocket rockets as long as I am different...though I am just gonna have 2 pairs of Fritichis anyway..."

Experiment away!!

Nov 4 2008 7:50PM
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japollner
Posts: 1699 - Karma: 459
Forgot to post the thread.  Here ya go:  http://backcountryworld.com/showthread.php?t=233&page=3&highlight=threaded+insert
Nov 4 2008 7:51PM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
I read through that thread a bit earlier and got lots of links for where I could get the inserts.
The verdict is: those are fucking pricey!!! I could build my own skis with regular inserts mounted into the core for less than that. I guess they must be really expensive because of the need for accurate casting/machining/whatever.
I think these would also work and have little chances of ripping out. But no idea what the price is:
[img]ttp://www.ezlok.com/images/InsertsWood/hero-soft-wood.jpg[/img]
Nov 5 2008 12:23AM
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