Is God a Delusion?

I believe in God. I think that there is alot of shady history behind the origins of the bible tho and Im somewhat sceptical on the specifics of whatever it is believe in. But I think there is a God who probably has minimal impact on the earth but could have alot, I wouldnt know one situation from the other so don't know which is true. Its interesting to think about forsure and will continue to be just that because theoretically there is no way to prove if a god exsists or not.

Same can be said for fairies or the flying spaghetti monster.

Did you seriously post the inane babbling of ignoramuses who don't know nor seem to follow the true message of scripture as an actual argument against it?

I don't get your reasoning. You want me to bring in some eugenics crap to "prove" that all scientists are racists? That wouldn't work, would it?

Simply because some people are stupid and follow religion does not mean that the teachings in an of themselves are stupid. Should I base my opinion on science based on the scientific proof of the 9/11 conspiracy, or on the research of a true scientist?

I would say a lot of the so-called "Christians" that have done terrible things weren't "religiously" motivated but only used that as a tool to get others to follow them.  And what WAS Stalin's motivation?  If true belief in the communist utopia was a part of it, you can't argue that atheism isn't a core tenet of that.  So yes, no one's ever waged a war "in the name of atheism" but that's simply because atheism in and of itself doesn't inspire people to any particular action in the way religion does.  And plenty of people have waged war in the name of communism.

Also, you could argue with equal validity that no one's ever done great good "in the name of atheism."  Show me examples of people like Mother Teresa who say, "I'm doing this because I don't believe in God."  That's not to say there's not plenty of atheists who do good things, because there are, but show me some who are motivated explicitly by their atheism to good actions.

Again, if we're simply being utilitarian about this, it sure seems - based on recent history - that people do as much or more harm to each other without religion as they do with it.

Well said. 

Patty, these arent ignoramuses. Sure, you may claim it as deviation from the true meaning of the scripture, and that you have to take it symbolically. But we've already showed that if you take scripture symbolically, then you are instead translating your moral beliefs out of it, rather than visa versa.

Besides that, I'm sure to them that what they say IS the true message.

Eugenics is not a scientific principle. It was bigotry and racism charading as a moralistic outlook. 






Next, I totally agree with you. There are stupid Christians and stupid atheists, just as there are smart Christians and smart atheists.

Whoa. Got cut off.

Look, the examples you bring up arent science. They arent based on scientific facts like the tenants of evolution, geology or physics. Good science has a firm concrete base upon which conclusions are drawn.

Just like the examples you bring up aren't based on "Love your neighbor," etc.

Just because "bad Christianity" has a greater following than "bad science" doesn't give it validity.

I agree with your first part, but religion has been used so many times as a rallying point for immoral actions. Its so easy for people to miss the main message, if there is one. Without god, you have to re-examine yourself, your motivations and most importantly, I think, come to your own conclusions, rather than those that someone gives you. Isnt that inspiring?

I cannot pretend to be a expert on Stalin, or his motivations. If his true goal even was to create a utopia for communism, it certainly became overshadowed by his other characteristics. I'm not arguing that religion is at the core of every conflict - I made that clear hopefully before. The point is this - if you are atheist, you are forced to come to your own conclusions and think independently. Religion just gives simple answers. Not that they are necessarily wrong, but its like instead of working hard and earning that ice cream cone, instead of just being handed one. Which would taste sweeter?

So science is therefor invalid over religion?

I don't know if there is a God or not but I damn sure hope it isn't yahweh
Numbers
31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. 31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. 31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves

Oh yeah and the middenites(who God is instructing moses to kil)l pissed God off about 400 years ago despite some texts saying that children are not responsible for the wrongdoings of their parents. Of course that scripture goes against genesis and the doctrine of original sin.

If I had to pick a religion it would be hinduism or buddhism. They don't have the "my way or the highway to hell" attitude of christianity. Also I dig the pantheistic view on God. I would also like to come back as a grasshopper.

If you think God is a "non-interventionalist" or does not play a role in human affairs. Does not answer prayers or perform miracles then look at pantheism or deism. A lot of great people have had those views. Not trying to convert you or anything but it's something looking at if you are interested in God, the universe and all that other good stuff.

Rowen, you aren't being unfair because you're targeting Christianity, you're being unfair because you're using people who, let me emphasize, do not actually have a logical theological foundation to their ear vomit.

Ann Coulter:
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

"Not all Muslims may be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."

"Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity, as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of 'kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed'"

So, I called these people ignoramuses. You said they aren't. So you think that Ann Coulter has half a brain? I believe in many things, but none quite as far fetched as that. So, first quote by Coulter, and she is OBVIOUSLY feeling some Jesus method. I mean, he went out of his way to kill people and forcefully convert them, just like Paul did later on, right? Oh wait, Paul killed Christians to try to get them to stop preaching, then was changed and felt that the only way to spread the Word was by example and debate... Coulter is oh so in tune with Christianity.

Second quote has NOTHING to do with Christianity, at all. That's Ann Coulter speaking out of her vacant space.

Third quote is an obvious case of headuponesassisus, which Coulter is a major sufferer of. This is her sheer ignorance at work, and again, has NOTHING to do with the message of Christianity.



Gary Potter (Catholics for Christian Political Action):
"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."

So this right here seems like the message of the Bible to you? Or how about the ramblings of a senile old man? Rowen, you're scaring me.


George Bush Senior:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

I guess since Psalm 151 states that the USA is one nation under God, Bush Sr. has a valid point? This has NOTHING to do with Christianity. It is simply the inane opinion of a seeming bigot.


George W Bush:
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

You don't agree with me that Bushie is an ignoramus? You're going to great lengths to prove your point. Obviously, if you're going to base your opinion of Christianity on a person, let it be Bush...

James Dobson (Focus on the Family):
"Those who control the access to the minds of children will set the agenda for the future of the nation and the future of the western world."

"State Universities are breeding grounds, quite literally, for sexually transmitted diseases (including HIV), homosexual behavior, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, alcoholism, and drug abuse."

First quote has nothing to do with Christianity. Second quote has nothing to do with Christianity, and isn't exactly untrue from my view at UCSC.

Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition):
"The Islamic people, the Arabs, were the ones who captured Africans, put them in slavery, and sent them to America as slaves. Why would the people in America want to embrace the religion of slavers?"

That sounds like what Jesus would say. When did failing at history and rational thought become grounds for speaking for the whole of Christainity?

"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different...More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."

Old man insultingly exaggerating? What does this have to do with Christianity?

"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals – the two things seem to go together."

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."

"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."

"[Planned Parenthood] is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism – everything that the Bible condemns."

AAaaaaaand it looks like the rest of your quotes have nothing to do with Christianity except that the idiot spekaing claims to be one. Let's just believe everyone on their word that they're christians when they say so? It's SO much easier to lump everyone together that way.

What you've done, and that is all you've done, is take the idiot Christians who have access to a microphone or camera and let them speak for the Bible, when it is clearly the other way around. These people do not follow the Bible, they do not follow it literally or figuratively. They are confused and wrong.

Allow me to explain how this happens. Look at the RNC. People speak with authority on matters they actually know shit about, or are misconstruing on purpose for personal gain. Everyone who trusts them believes them, and live in a state of ignorance because it's what they wanted to hear anyways. People leave thinking flag pins are relevant, that voting present means you're indecisive, that Obama is a muslim, that Biden got less votes for president than Palin did for mayor. All of which are untrue, or spun, from real facts. They gobble it up, because they don't think, don't check for themselves. Likewise, you get some preacher bigot who starts spewing hate to a congregation of sheep, you get the same effect, even though the true message is completely against the teaching of the one person.

I also LOVE your source for these quotes. Oh, I'm sure you could go on, quoting "The American Taliban" website. You wanna explain how these people are similar to the TALIBAN?Too quaint. http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html

Nice one Rowen, how positively insulting.

Yeesh. Patty, I'm not trying to be insulting. And yeah, I did find a rather nice website, thanks. Check it out if you get a chance. I'm not part of the website, but their agenda, from what I can make of it, is to show that religious extremism is not just an artifact of Islam. Why should the website even matter, the words were still spoken by these people.

Again, I'm not trying to be insulting of your faith. I'm trying to be as considerate as possible, you are the one that is jumping all over the place. I'm sorry what I have to say conflicts with you, but thats the breaks. Read my first post in this thread.

The reason I brough up these quotes was not to point out terrible members of the christian community. I posted them because I want to know how a religion that according to you preaches peace and harmony with others be weilded so terribly? Again, some of the people quoted are fervently followed by millions and deemed morally and spiritually correct. Is religion suseptible to misues?

I also have a problem with a true message. If I were to sample a wide array of christians from around the country, I feel each answer would be different. Who's right and wrong completely depends on this. You think that they would be wrong, and they would believe equally of you. What makes you any more correct than these people?

Yes! It is susceptible to misuse, because it's extremely easy to convince lazy, gullible people to buy anything. How do you think advertising works? Look at the RNC! I know you know what I'm getting at.

Science is also susceptible to misuse. It takes only one person to declare that such and such inanity has been declared "scientifically proven" and millions of followers ensue, bleating the same unfounded statement.

Just like anything that allows people to not to have to think about anything themselves, religion, science, popular anything will often be a default by people who simply lack the investigative know how to truly understand what it is they believe. It is not to the fault of the doctrine, but the human condition.

Now, it depends on which matter you present. If you present a question about the role of food, and symbolically popular culture in the church, you WILL find an awful lot of dissent. Some extremely liberal, and others extremely conservative. Why? Because ultimately it isn't a matter that the Bible dwells on, leaving it up to people to choose the food that they can eat in good conscience, lest they be tempted to sin through any of it. There is room for personal strength/limitation in the Bible.

If you were to ask though about the divinity of Christ, however, any sort of dissent from acceptance of Christ as the Son of God, and you've got a case of an either/or, not both. They can't both be right. The one who is right is the one who is based on the text, logical, thorough and non contradictory and that takes into account context and interpretation of scripture. The way you find who is "right" is to see who has argued it the best. Just like any other case.

The reason I get huffy, is because you obviously KNOW religion can be misused, yet you also know that this is not necessarily in compliance with the actual religion itself but the deviance of ignorant men. It does no good to trash the religion by proclaiming that there are idiots among the religious if you know from past discussion that these idiots are not representative of the actual message. You're smearing Christianity even though you know the conclusion is much more moderate.

I agree with your first part, its not like your food analogy. Servitude of women, stoning people to death and evidence of a jealous and innocent-killing god is written into the text. There can be no denying that. Now, we may have the good conscience not to follow or use such text nowadays, but lets look for a minute at why that is. Either,

A) Morality is not dictated by religion and instead dictates what we decide is important from the bible as times change

B) Some miraculous force is driving us to ineptly understand what is good from the bible and what is ludicrous.

I understand your argument, I really do. But we're dealing with matters of belief, and when given a text full of so many things, people will not be able to pick and choose as you do as to what they should follow and what they should disregard. I doubt very much that almost anyone regards every sentence in the bible as belief they must absolutely follow. 

What I'm trying to get at is that there is a terrible double standard here.


Yes, I certianly know religion can be misused, and I make no qualms that evil would ever cease in this world no matter what we believe. But I'm saying that religion can be used to quickly turn rational people into irrational beings in the name of belief. Belief can be absolute. Some people dont just believe that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago, but the know it. That is the weakness of religion, at least in my eyes.

And yes, I know that the 'idiots' i quoted arent representative of the message. Thats my point. Take a step back and look at it again.

. I feel that this discussion is getting too much a conversation between Patty and I. As enlightening as it may be, I'd also like to hear from others, so I'll pose a question;


Can a four year old really be a labeled a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew? They can be the child of a Jewish or Catholic family, for sure, but should we ascribe faith so early? It seems no more ridiculous to label them "liberal" or "conservative" or "communist" or "emo" if they themselves have no choice in the matter.

my friends you must realize that Christians do not believe God is a big caucasian man in the sky that wears a big robe and sends you to hell. not even Catholics. i am a protestant Presbyterian chrictian and i have gone to catholic school for many years of my life. 99% of christians believe god is unimaginable. our minds have been told what reality is by our own minds. we cannot reason with what God is in human terms. a famous quote sums up what im saying:

"God created man in his image. Man, being a gentleman, did the same for God."

this is saying that God made us look as we did for his plan. he made us what he wanted to make us. we have no direct knowledge of God however, and using what we know of a person to look like would be totally wrong.

i am a christian and i do believe in God. honestly what do i have to lose though? i still smoke weed and i still drink so im experiencing the world. if im wrong and there is no god then i just have had a happy life with someone to believe in and keep me going strong when times go tough even if im dust in the ground. but if you dont believe and you are wrong and there IS a hell, lol pwn3d.

much respect and karma to Rowen. hes definitely an NS legend in my mind.

Its a good point you bring up. A hundred years ago, people did take religion a lot more seriously in general. Modern attitudes it seem have made "god" into an omnipotent force removed but still influencing our universe. Unlikely as it may be (and raising millions of other questions - where does god live, where did he come from, can god die?), it seems more and more people are ascribing to this meaning as a watchmaker sort of figure. Just interesting.

But again, you bring in Pascals wager. It makes sense to believe in god, because if you believe and there is no afterlife, you lose nothing. However, if you dont believe and there is an afterlife, you go to hell.

Again, why not believe in Fairies, Reptilians or the Flying Spaghetti Monster through that same logic? I'm fine with people believing what they want, but it seems that religion has a nasty habit of being twisted for personal gain or power. People do some irrational things because they were 'gods will', and it would be understandable if it was just the 1% of the population which is always bat-shit crazy. But its not - religion has blinded many many people against various issues:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml

Doesnt this confound the progress of our society? Belief is being opted over hard fact.

I think God could have guided evolution. The idea that something might have played a role in the development of life isn't too crazy. Anthony Flew who was a long time proponent of atheism changed his mind and started to believe in a "God" in 2004 after he said that DNA and all that shit is too perfect to have developed without any intervention. The idea of all life being created in it's present form is pretty silly to me considering the mountain of fossil evidence against that case.

My theory on the whole thing is that something caused the universe and had natural laws to govern the universe. Things such as gravity and the ways elements bond with one another. I think that "God" could have created those laws in such a way that it would cause life to form if conditions permitted. I think it is possible that God doesn't know or care about us. I guess my belief could just be described as sexed up atheism. But I will be the first to admit that I could be wrong and I am probably wrong.

Flew doesnt know what he believes in. As for DNA being 'too perfect', I'd really like to see what evidence that statement draws upon.

Also, bump.

well bumped

  If you dont believe in hell thats ok becuase thats where youll be going. (a loose quote of minister John Hagee of Cornerstone Church in San Antinio Texas) 

I just dont get how people that preach love and compassion for all can so quickly condemn you to what they believe is eternal torture. How skewed the mind can become...

  I could sit here and argue with you but im not going to give you that pleasure. You will get you explenation in the after life.

hahahaha i love when people tell me that because its like "dude, i dont believe in it so clearly, its NOT a concern of mine."

hmmm somebody doesn't have the "facts" of the bible straight...

facts are in quotations for a very good reason.

Read my post, its not a thread for arguing, its for discussion. If you truly believe in what you say then you should be able to explain it and rebut others claims.

way to quote all far-right wack jobs. mlk and ma theresa were christians too

I believe in God.  I don't feel like I need to explain why to anyone.  I just get torn a new asshole anyway, which i really don't need to subject myself to. I don't force it on anyone, and so I don't think anyone should force their negativity or judgement on me.

Oh, and i quote replied you, J.D., because I agree with what you said.

I do have to disagree with this. Faith doesnt have to be explained to prove its existince. In fact, that is one of the key elements that makes faith faith; it cannot be truly explained scientificly.

Although Science has yet to prove religion exists, it has yet to prove it does not exist. In fact, the very word "prove" is seen by many scientists and statisticists to be unusable. Scientists can make a hypothesis, gather data, and either support or not support their hypothesis. To "prove" whether something exists or not is, frankly, impossible by sciences own standards.

Some people ascribe to the idea that there is only one exclusive certainty in life....

this seems like an appropriate thread for this picture a friend of mine posted on FB

maybe the smartest post in this thread. i think nonbelievers talk alot more shit about believers than the other way around. let people think what they want to think, i say

And thats my problem with faith. I dont think religious faith is a necessity for humans. Sure, its wonderful to believe we have a gaurdian and watchmaker, and that cruel things happen for a reason, and that we go somewhere when we die. Likewise, I could also go around life seeing fairies and gumdrops everywhere I look, and oh, theres a unicorn.

But its not real. What would you want, a beautiful lie or truth?


And for the last time, science has not disproven the Flying Spaghetti Monster either. Just because we cannot prove the existence of something because it is 'beyond our current understanding" doesnt mean we should believe in it. I remain skeptical.

I don't think you understand.  People who have faith believe it to be true. It is truth to them, it isn't an option they chose to believe in, they just do.

So you're okay with suicide bombers thinking they will receive 72 virgins in the afterlife if they become a martyr? Theres problems with letting people believe whatever they want.

Are you saying you're an advocate of mind control?

Haha, in no way, thought I see how you could construe it that way if you wished.

i was brought up christian, but i dont necissarily believe in god the way the bible depicts him. i believe ina  higher being simply because, as far as i know, no one knows what happened before the big bang (if the big bang did even happen) something had to create something as far as i can see it, and i dunno who or what that was but its what i believe and science cant take that away, yet....

Examine this situation then -

I believe that the world is dominated by the fairy-king and that carebears live up in the clouds with lollipop forests and gumdrop castles. To bring a little hint of realism in here, I believe that everyone will go up into the clouds when they die unless they worship the fairy-king and give yearly sacrifices of candy to the carebears on easter.

Or take this - I have the unwavering belief that actually, everyone in the world is happy, because I am happy, and that suffering is a lie cooked up by radicals who wear tight pants and silly hats. Thus, the world is an awesome place, and everyone shouldnt worry and just be happy. Thats my belief.

Or, I believe that what we get is what we get. We live, we make music, explore the world, meet people and then its over, and thats it. Its unromantic, and shitty compared to the others. But its a truth more of us are inclined to believe, no?

You can have faith in anything, but if the world actually is one way (say without a god or with carebears in the clouds) what you believe in doesnt matter if its anything different. So why am I making an argument for the faithless world? Because you can believe in anything. To really get a grasp of how crazy this is, its like getting on a bus and asking the driver "where do you go" and you get the reply "anywhere in the universe!". C'mon, you'd walk off the bus.

Science isnt one big evil conspiracy committed to 'killing god'. Its about finding real answers.

no no i didnt mean to come off like that, i really enjoy science and its done great things. im just saying that im tired of people bashing on religions of any kind and telling people what they believe in isnt true because this is the way it happened. people will believe whatver they want and nothing can change them. but yea i didnt mean to sound that way at all.

You can change your beliefs... right?

i think we just dont understand how when given the choice between facts or fiction (sorry but thats what the bible is, a story) how do you choose the story

definately, but most strong christians (mainly older people from my experiences) will just reject any scientific discoveries that come along and remain biased that what they believe in is right

no, of course not.  but thats a widely discredited act of terror, not someone just quietly living their life who happens to be religious, which is the context i thought we were talking in.  i see what you're saying- there are some people out there with some fucked up ideas- but i'm not sure if controling people's beliefs is either, a. the solution, or b. really even possible.  if you truly believe something, its pretty engrained

Yeah, and thats another problem with belief. Belief can make people immune to reason. Its better to be at least a little be skeptical.

Even people quietly living their lives have an effect on the world - voting for what should be taught in schools for example.

I'm not talking about controlling beliefs or even changing them. Its rare for a child of religious parents to ever change their religion (like 1 in 12 in Christian families, and most religions have lower rates - Judaism for example). All I'd advocate is that you put aside your beliefs for a brief instant and just consider what else is out there. Are you actually satisfied with your belief, or do you believe it because its the only possibility you know?

On another topic, why should a three year old be labeled "Christian", or "Muslim"? Shouldnt children have the right to chose their religion, so they can decide on their own what they think is the right faith?