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School kills creativity....

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aaron.ebner
Posts: 2868 - Karma: 61

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

very interesting....
watch the entire thing.

Aug 13 2008 6:01AM
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martin.
Posts: 2115 - Karma: 34
yes. Institutional education is no more than a factory to produce mindless workers to fill the next generation of neo con's checking account.

but a lot of it is the fault of the dumb ass kids who don't care about anything.
Aug 13 2008 7:28AM
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Static
Posts: 8559 - Karma: 4,128
Damn, 1 minute worth of decent lecture, 19 minutes of bullshit. Math, language, science, they're all black and white subjects, not much room for creativity. Those subjects are of more value to society than drawing or dance. It's up to parents to push their kids into extra ciricular activities to balance education and creativity.
Aug 13 2008 8:31AM
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aaron.ebner
Posts: 2868 - Karma: 61
maybe they just don't know what to care about. maybe they're so confused because all of the sudden they're put into public schools and all the things that used to matter when they were kids is deemed useless and all their dreams get crushed as educators attempt to homogonize us.
Aug 13 2008 7:56PM
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monstertruckk
Posts: 3044 - Karma: 454
i hate dumb people
Aug 13 2008 8:01PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
it depends on what school you go to. i've never been to a school that harmed my creativity.
Aug 13 2008 8:12PM
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pandora.
Posts: 103 - Karma: 30
It definitely depends, but from my experience I would say that besides an occasional art or creative writing class, public school curriculum is based on an outdated, extremely linear way of learning.

I enjoyed the line "Education has strip mined our minds like we do the earth for particular commodities."





Aug 13 2008 8:27PM
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dave44
Posts: 11052 - Karma: 113
how long does it take him to get to the point?
Aug 13 2008 8:29PM
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ryan.c
Posts: 6592 - Karma: 14
id say about half way in he does it, then follows with an example in the last quarter. but the whole vid is really worth watching and interesting to think about
Aug 13 2008 8:57PM
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XtRemE11
Posts: 5680 - Karma: 246
yeah i agree, its sad to people with just as much if not more mental power than 4.0 gpa students get absolutely no credit at all because their brain works in a different way than people with their faces in text books 24/7.
it seems like this is being kinda realized now, that creativity is just as good as book smarts, and hopefully things change to allow creative people to have just as good of oppertunities as straight A students.
Aug 13 2008 8:58PM
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martin.
Posts: 2115 - Karma: 34
yea seriously, I take AP classes and I'm some of the dumbest people in the school are in that class. In my AP US class we would always have political discussions or talk about topics that were begging for a debate, but yet it always ended up with me and my 3 friends ranting because everyone else in the class was too busy staring at the teachers ass or worrying about who was going to prom with who to actually think for themselves instead of memorizing a bunch of bullshit facts from the textbook.

/rant
Aug 13 2008 9:06PM
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BrokenBones
Posts: 1275 - Karma: 703
Once most of you graduate high school you may think differently...  Being creative is learning how to be creative within boundaries.  However, you gotta build those fundamentals first.  So sit back and try and learn something from your boring classes so that you can use that knowledge in the future to be a creative genius when it counts!
Aug 13 2008 9:23PM
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aaron.ebner
Posts: 2868 - Karma: 61
that's the point.... why should there be boundaries to what we can do? Being creative has nothing to do with how much "stuff" you know....
Aug 14 2008 1:15AM
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Static
Posts: 8559 - Karma: 4,128
Because when you say Frank sent this instead of frankincense people will think you're retarded.
Aug 14 2008 4:18AM
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Tom.
Posts: 1954 - Karma: 12
So true. That basically sums up my school career. I went to a really nice private Montesaury(sp?) school and learned about 3 years of algebra in 3 semesters.Then I switched to a public middle school and aced this placement test and go put in another algebra course, but got kicked out for having a fucking C+. I ended up going to highschool freshman year in the lowest math class available. Luckily the public highschool I go to is pretty good, and I was able to actually do the math courses that I needed to do. I skipped a year of math sophmore and junior year, so by the end of my junior year I was in AP Clac AB.

But I still get shit grades. I have a 2.5 or something like that for my GPA. I got a B in my Calc class and a C+ in AP Physics, which is absolute bullshit because I worked my ass off. I ended up getting a 5 on my Calc AP test and a 4 on my Physics AP test(I could have done WAY better, but I had to piss really bad and got butt-fucked for time). I've gotten low grades like this my whole life. In fact the only time I've ever gotten an A was when I was taking a college math course over the summer, which only counted test and quiz scores.

All this shit boils down me just learning different than most people. When I was in elementary school it was the same story. My parents ended up getting me tested for learning disabilities and other stuff and it turned out I had some pretty severe dyslexia. I also got IQ tested and I took a visual-spacial test. My IQ score was something like 145 and placed in the top .01% for the nation on the visual-spacial test. Keep in mind this was when I was in elementary school. I consider myself pretty smart (at least when it comes to science and math) so I've disagreed with the school system my entire life.

Its too bad that I have a low GPA, which means I'm probably not getting into the best college, but fuck it. I can always just get my undergrad at a really big college that is easier to get into and then go for my graduate degree somewhere nicer.
Aug 14 2008 7:24AM
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3ski6guy0
Posts: 9201 - Karma: 134

well what do you expect when the government creates the curriculum for kids. schools pretty much promote everybody being the same. and yes i agree with whoever said that kids who dont get 4.0s get little credit for how smart they are. i would say im one of them. i got a 2.9, never tried, i hate reading books but when it comes to business endeavors my mind just goes into overdrive. i hate school but i can think about a business for hours on end and love it. moral of story, do whatever makes you happy and not just what society wants you to do. also, watch waking life

Aug 14 2008 9:05AM
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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
I don't really have any sympathy for you.  you didn't try in high school, which is incredibly easy.  just a little effort, but it was too much for you.

I can think about business endeavors for hours on end too.  lots of people can.  you're not special.  its called a pipe dream.  most of the time you have to work hard to accomplish anything.  have you actually done anything with your ideas?  if so, I apologize.

school is not some sort of conspiracy to make us all the same.  that's retarded.  why are there honors and AP classes, band, art, drama, school sports, and gifted/talented programs?  there's a million ways to express your creativity in school, even in small ways, like drawing on your binder, or making a funny powerpoint presentation.  if you can't express your creativity, maybe you aren't creative enough.  or you just don't care to and would rather bitch about it.
Aug 14 2008 12:28PM
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BASS_PRO_SHOP
Posts: 1519 - Karma: 52
sounds like a bunch of hippy shit to me. yeah it could, but then again its up to the kid to be creative enough to keep the artistic side alive. kids should be taught all the things they are now just for the fact that because one kid out of the class doesn't find it useful, it shouldn't be ruined for everyone else. a lot of jobs that are USEFUL to society take the subjects learned in school as a base. fucking hippies.
Aug 14 2008 1:20PM
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ryan.c
Posts: 6592 - Karma: 14
i dont think thats true at all. everyone (in hs) basically has to take all the same classes, some are at different levels, but its still generally the same stuff. the kids that are better at math, science, eng, and ss get better cred thru gpa and the kids that are really into art, dance, music, dont get that. theres no honors or ap drawing class (atleast around this area). theres no honors system for dancing. infact my hs doesnt have any sort of dance classes. my school in particular is completely focused on the 4 major sections and the other stuff is deff looked down upon. the only other section that's given credit is foreign languages and thats because we have the best program around the area, but it still doesnt get as much credit.
Aug 14 2008 1:33PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
This is retarded. The reason a curriculum is liner in design is because thats the easiest way to create a system that fits the largest group of people. Just because discipline is a necessary focus in school does not mean creativity cannot exist. The truly gifted can cope with it until they get their chance. You kids really take for granted how much choice and freedom you have in deciding your future. Oh, AP is a complete joke.
Aug 14 2008 1:34PM
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reverendwrong
Posts: 3145 - Karma: 142
well we do need math, and science, and those other non creative classes. but we also need to take other creative classes. at my school you have to take 1 credit of art/music throughout the whole 4 years your there. and the art classes are music, drama, and the other art classes like drawing and ceramics. but I think we should have to take more and more should be included. my school used to have cooking and automotive classes but they were cut the year i got there. I spend alot of time cooking at home, its my faveorite hobby outside of skiing. I also enjoy cars and building stuff but I dont get to do it much because the rest of my family and friends arent into it. I think woodshop, automotie, and those other classes where you have to find a creative way to solve a problem, or design something unique are important. Everynight at the dinnertable i hear my parents talk about having to find different ways to solve a problem. So mabey they wont end up being artists from taking those classes. but you can use the skills that you develop to help you out in other areas in life
Aug 14 2008 1:37PM
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BASS_PRO_SHOP
Posts: 1519 - Karma: 52
you're fucking retarded to buy into that bullshit. look at your graduating class... hell look at every graduating class that has ever passed through the school. do you see cookie cutters? everyone doing the same jobs wearing the same suits? no. you wanna know why? because school doesn't conform people. it gives you some skills you may or may not need later on in life. school has been around for centuries and look how the world is? just as much variety as there would be if there was no school. its all damned hippy bs.
Aug 14 2008 1:37PM
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Meh42
Posts: 2431 - Karma: 14
You know, that could be because the whole concept behind mandatory high school is to have a populace that's literate and has at least a basic understanding of important core concepts.  Not so much dance...  Don't really see how dance fits in there...



Don't get me wrong, I think extracurriculars are important, but the idea of having your gpa influenced by things like dance is laughable.

Furthermore, the whole debate over whether schools favor certain students and what should be done about it is based around the concept that everyone should go to college.  I think the current system is fucking ridiculous.  College is not right for everyone, but why doesn't anyone even think anymore when they graduate highschool?  Even the legitimately stupid kids feel it's their right and duty to go on to spend a whoooole shit ton of mommy and daddy's money to go drink for four years.

And it's a vicious cycle.  As college degrees become more mandatory in the workforce, every idiot will want one, no matter how mediocre.  And as every idiot begins to get them, they'll become even more mandatory.  Give it a decade or two and graduate degrees will be the new standard.



Annnd, I'm done.  Thoughts?





Aug 14 2008 1:45PM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
school doesn't determine how smart you are. anybody can memorize a fact and write it down on a piece of paper for marks. school simply teaches you. it's your decision whether or not to excel. i've met retards who have done extremely well in school, simply because they are good at remembering what they have been taught. being taught and having learned are two different things. you can prove you have learned something by applying it in the real world. if you are taught something that cannot be implied in the real world, it's useless.
i agree that there are plenty of really intelligent kids out there who didn't do very well in school. but if they are so intelligent, there is no excuse for them not to succeed outside of school. there are plenty of things they could do that won't be linked with what grades they got in senior year.
if you don't want to learn what they are teaching you in school, you need to come up with a strong reason why the curriculum is flawed, and send it in to your school board. otherwise, just sit down and shut up. if you're not a creative person, you cannot blame that on school. some of the most creative people on the planet have been through more years of school than you kids. so if you cannot find ways to be creative in any environment, or to be creative outside of school, then you just weren't destined to be a creative person. don't blame it on school, the schools aren't out to get you and steal your dreams away. grow up.

Aug 14 2008 1:49PM
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vinnyT
Posts: 349 - Karma: 10
im sorry to rain on this thread, but as a society, creativity without education gets us NOWHERE. It seems like the posts in this thread want people to be ignorant. Especially in a democracy, which cannot function without an educated public.
Aug 14 2008 2:16PM
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tomalom
Posts: 350 - Karma: 10
yes i agree completely with your comment on how everyone has to have a college degree.
now im a pretty smart kid, every standardized test i take im within top 95% andwhen  i took my IQ test it said i was a genius /claim but i am choosing not to go to college. The first twelve years of education were a waste of time and money for me. i breezed through everything and never had to do any work. although i got good enough grades i never felt like i learned anything. so then last year i took my first year of college and it was just the same, i was in all these classes just because i had to get a degree i never was interested in what was being taught and i felt like at least half the class was just trying to get through it. thats not what learning is, learning should be something you are interested in and that you can take pride when you finally understand it. so well yea its bullshit that everyone has to have a college degree because now im worried that in the future when im applying for jobs even though i may be a better candidate in every aspect theres a good chance that ill get beat out for jobs by morons who just float through college and never learn anything
Aug 14 2008 2:43PM
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aaron.ebner
Posts: 2868 - Karma: 61

this thread was supposed to be about school killing creativity, not how important the stuff taught in school is. just think about it, when you tell someone what's right and what's wrong you greatly reduce their will to come up with different, exceptional ideas. i'm all for learning all sorts of stuff, i can consider almost any idea.... but when schools have certain requirements and ways of doing things it's absurd. if you just gave some freedom to complete tasks in any way then we would see a lot more new, thoughtful ways of doing things.

Aug 14 2008 2:46PM
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Dylan_
Posts: 9824 - Karma: 1,403
i feel it depends on the school you attend, theres good schools and not as good. probably depending on where you lived. im sure a school in new york has better education than lets say a school in alabama or southern california in the ghetto or something. but then again the schools there, the kids might have more creativity because its where their from, i might be wrong, but thats what i feel
Aug 14 2008 2:48PM
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3ski6guy0
Posts: 9201 - Karma: 134
yes i have. haha i accept your apology
Aug 14 2008 7:58PM
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connoroh
Posts: 2333 - Karma: 246
lolz. I go to an arts school.
Aug 14 2008 7:59PM
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Static
Posts: 8559 - Karma: 4,128
math, science, grammer, history, soooo much fucking room for exceptional ideas. I tried to tell my teacher that 5+5=potato, but the bullshit education system considers me stupid for some reason. Fuck learninggg.
Aug 14 2008 8:41PM
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AMG.
Posts: 867 - Karma: 21
the funny thing is its even deeper than just the subjects themselves. at my school if your in an art class, and say you can sculpt or draw on some crazy level, it doesnt matter that much because 70% of the course projects revolve around your ability to paint, so if you cant paint your kinda fucked lol.
Aug 14 2008 9:46PM
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iluvBread
Posts: 1519 - Karma: 38
fuck dem schools...ain't got shit on us creative fools
Aug 14 2008 9:47PM
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birdshake
Posts: 1228 - Karma: 71
at my high school in grade 9 you had to take either art, music or drama. and tech, business, or home ec. there were courses that were mandatory but that list shrunk as you moved up grades in grade 12 the only subject I had to take was english and the rest I took where ones I actually wanted to learn like design tech and auto and film and fashion (I just crocheted the whole time) I have no idea what I want to do in the next few years and I dont plan on going to college anytime soon but I know once i figure it out and I need to go I will but I dont believe I have to go
Sep 2 2008 12:50AM
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[Adam]
Posts: 1937 - Karma: 256
good post
Sep 2 2008 12:55AM
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woolymammoth
Posts: 242 - Karma: 13

I don't think public education kills creativity but dumb shit kids who are too fucking cool for learning
Besides the arts, and dance, and whatever you can be super creative in math and science and ss too
My physics class is stupid as hell though because we aren't allowed to have a single creative thought for fear of kids getting lost.  I ask the teacher theoretical questions that she won't answer because you can't have anyone getting lost, which is hard when noone pays attention
How creative you are is really up to you though.  If you want to dance or paint or right poetry or think your own way school isn't stopping you.  School is showing you one way of doing things and if you disagree with it, try and find a better way, if you're worried about the arts effecting your GPA or whatever, go to an art school and then an art college and it won't matter.
/mini-rant

finally "Learning begins when you forget everything you're taught in school" -Einstein

Sep 2 2008 1:15AM
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2+2=5
Posts: 3676 - Karma: 18
thats because you dont have to go to college to be an artist, dancer or musician. you can do all that shit outside of school. right now im really into music. i play guitar everyday, listen to music, and DJ. but i have never stepped inside my schools music room. one reason because what they do doesnt suit my genre and they limit you to what you can do. they dont ask you to produce your own songs, usually its just sight playing off the sheet of music which is not creative at all. the root of creative is to create.

also, who said that there is no creativity in math or science? a simple problem solving question on a math test can make a person develop his/her own formula to solve it. thats creative.
Sep 2 2008 10:24AM
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ryan.c
Posts: 6592 - Karma: 14
yeah actually. around 90% of my school graduates after grade 12, very few get GED's. no they all dont go to the same college, or for the same major, but everyone takes basically the same courses. all 4 years of math, 3 of science, 4 history, 4 english. barely any extra courses are available throughout school. people go outside of school to do all the other stuff. you dont need all those mandatory classes in most fields of work.


its not until college that you get to really express yourself and do what you want to do. modern school has helped in ways, but also hurt, especially in the U.S., which used to be a very smart nation, now ranks well below many countries, countries which dont have such a strict curriculum for their kids.
Sep 2 2008 3:24PM
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king.tubby
Posts: 2865 - Karma: 122
"when i think back on all the crap i learned in high school, its a wonder i can still think at all." -paul simon "kodacrome"
Sep 2 2008 5:18PM
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