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Bush pushes to lift Arctic drilling ban

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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,726
He is going for it, I cant believe it. Those guys are desperate to destroy something else. First, its Afganistan, then its Iraq, then the US economy and now the Arctic Wildlife Refugee in the North. Even worse, McCain promises to try to lift the ban too if elected.

Its time we change our habits, we knew this day was going to happen, it happened 20 years ago. Now is the time we come up with a new source of energy. Letting the republicans drill the north only delays the same situation we are in. Nothing is going to happen until this happens again. Lets make this our last oil crisis!

Here is the article:
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/06/18/bushoffshore.html
Jul 15 2008 2:13PM
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InfernoHits
Posts: 4755 - Karma: 192
what is drilling there going to sustain our fuel needs for 10 - 20 yrs at most. Fuck leave the wilderness alone and find another source of fuel. We can go to space, we can build 200 story sky scrapers, we can fucking fly, yet we cant find a source of energy other than oil. Its bullshit.
Jul 15 2008 2:18PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
I don't know about you green thumbs, but the rest of us aren't ready for < $5 a gallon. If we want the economy to stabilize, we need to not be dependent on foreign oil. I know you guys have your pipe dream about alternative fuels, but the realty is that they're not ready to take over. They're not efficient or coast effective enough.

Wake up, we're still going to be dependent in fossil fuels for the next several decades regardless of how well developed our alternative fuels are. We need to secure are own supply and then move towards alternatives once the market is stabilized.

Perhaps ANWR isn't the answer, we have other reserves in the gulf and in North Dakota that haven't been touched...but everything needs to be on the table right now.
Jul 15 2008 2:27PM
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funk.
Posts: 2679 - Karma: 33
make that roughly ONE YEAR.  Put the money into making alternative energy sources more efficient.  I don't want my state torn the fuck up anymore.
Jul 15 2008 2:28PM
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funk.
Posts: 2679 - Karma: 33
^^, ^ haha we clash
Jul 15 2008 2:29PM
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aurora.
Posts: 1169 - Karma: 104
amen.
Jul 15 2008 2:51PM
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GhostfaceKillah
Posts: 3398 - Karma: 10
perhaps the US would be able to find more efficient ways of producing these alternate energy sources if  they stopped spending billions of dollars policing the world and put that money towards alternative fuel research
Jul 15 2008 3:05PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,726
Well put
Jul 15 2008 3:09PM
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KravtZ
Posts: 6637 - Karma: 2,629
we should def drill there its not gunna ruin the enviroment that much plus we need the oil mayeb it could lower the price and its not like that many people live in alaska bottom line is we should casue we need the oil and the enviroment wont suffer that much
Jul 15 2008 3:16PM
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GhostfaceKillah
Posts: 3398 - Karma: 10
we don't "need" the oil my friend

our civilization wont collapse if we don't have oil
Jul 15 2008 3:19PM
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drewishish
Posts: 3710 - Karma: 23
the artctic? no. north dakota? who gives a fuck. north dakota is good for nothing, and is a reallly ugly state. i say go for it. only while we look for an alternative source.
Jul 15 2008 3:21PM
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funk.
Posts: 2679 - Karma: 33
I really hate it when people think that no one lives here.
Jul 15 2008 3:21PM
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hawaiiansteeze
Posts: 3255 - Karma: 3,226
i dont think it will colapse but shit will deffiantly hit the fan
Jul 15 2008 3:22PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,726
remember, when thing are going fine, change doesn't need to be implemented. We did nothing through the 80's and 90's because there was no problem, gas was still cheap.

We bitch and complain about combustible fossils being expensive but, yet we dont do anything. Show me were any government in North America funding research groups and show me who and how much. Nothing much eh? I thought so. High gas prices are a wake up call. We ignored the warnings for too long. Now we gotta get to work, take it from the last oil crisis.

You talk of no being able to be independent of fuel. This not like smoking, the debate is over. Either you can keep on doing the bad habits and wait until there is nothing left to act. There is still plenty of oil left to change, the prices are just higher. My job directly is directly involved with fuel, marine shipping. I know the upgrades and discoveries are hydrocarbons, its an essential course. So far, the technology hasn't changed in a long time.

Remember this is OUR future, the past is over. Oil was a source of strength, now it can collapse North America. Im making a big deal about it because it is a big deal, we only have one earth. I want it preserved. Lets be aggressive, all the ideas I have seen are all backyard projects people do on free time.
Jul 15 2008 3:23PM
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thecounty
Posts: 1450 - Karma: 290
word. there is going to be a pretty big crisis on our hands if we keep going on with this high oil price. drilling isnt only for gasoline purposes but also every other petroleum based product or service that is used by people today. im all for alternative solutions however, in the mean time, we do need more oil at a more reduced cost and as long as the government doesnt keep taxing the shit out of it, we will be better off. we all cant afford 5 dollar a gallon gas, so until that alternative fuel is found we have to do everything we can to keep our initial costs as low as possible, otherwise, we are basically what you would say in financial terms "SCREWED".
Jul 15 2008 3:30PM
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rusteezee
Posts: 332 - Karma: 14
if drilling in AK means more oil and cheaper gas, than i say FUCK THE ENVIRONMENT.
Jul 15 2008 4:01PM
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Aaaron.
Posts: 11817 - Karma: 903
word.
alternative energy is the way to go.

Jul 15 2008 4:05PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Nice way to change the subject instead of actually offering something. Go back to your Xbox kiddo and leave the discussion for mature people, okay?
Jul 15 2008 4:16PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Didn't people use to use that same rationalization to bulldoze wetlands for mini-malls? Please join the 21st century with the rest of us and stop being so arrogant.
Jul 15 2008 4:17PM
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BASS_PRO_SHOP
Posts: 1519 - Karma: 52
hahaha shut up hippy. way to contribute nothing to a conversation by saying something completely retarded and non-relevant. i hate hearing all these bitches complaining about how america "is policing the world, spend the money on schools!!!" thats the way things are. how about this... perhaps if all the hippies and bitches out there spent all their time getting educated on alternative fuel sources instead of trying to blame the government for everything, we wouldnt be in this mess.
Jul 15 2008 4:18PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
My bet is you've never had a job that required a long commute. This isn't just about an energy source, its about an economy. Consumer confidence is going to continue to slump when gas prices keep going up...and they will keep going up. You're incredibly naive if you think we can quickly switch to alternative fuels. There isn't a viable one out there yet, and its going to take time to find it. In the meantime, we need to get our oil supply under our own control and get the economy back on its feet.
Jul 15 2008 4:18PM
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GhostfaceKillah
Posts: 3398 - Karma: 10
pardon me?

you exclaimed that currently alternative fuel sources are far too inefficient for us to use on a mass scale, and I rebutted exclaiming that if we were to put money towards researching and developing these alternate sources of energy that it would eventually become more efficient?

how is that not adding anything to the discussion?

its a well known fact that the more you produce a certain product, eventually we will become more efficient at producing this product, thus lowering production costs and lowering costs for the consumers... why do you think technology prices are high when a new technology is released (ex bluray), then eventually as companies become more efficient at making these products the prices lower?

suck a dick
Jul 15 2008 4:21PM
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GhostfaceKillah
Posts: 3398 - Karma: 10
and now imagine if we put all that money the US government is blowing on a ridiculous war towards researching and developing alternative energy sources...
Jul 15 2008 4:23PM
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Schmidnj
Posts: 387 - Karma: 10
wont help without more refineries...
Jul 15 2008 4:24PM
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BASS_PRO_SHOP
Posts: 1519 - Karma: 52
thank you, someone that is a realist with an understanding of basic economy. i bet you the kid whose going against you drives a car that takes just as much gas as yours. a lot of the "environmentalists" on this site are all talk and only say that shit because its what they were spoonfed by pop culture.
Jul 15 2008 4:25PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
You're a poor economist. You're acting like we can jump in a magical time machine and change the past and allocate our resources differently.

But this is reality, we can't change the past, all we can do is look forward and try to figure something out. Quit trying to turn this into a partisan issue.
Jul 15 2008 4:28PM
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skiingonskis
Posts: 2076 - Karma: 262

thats probably one of the most retarded posts ive seen in a while...
im reading a book right now thas called "the end of oil" and it describes the crisis that the world is in.  about 75% of the oil in the world thats left is in OPEC (saudi arabia, iraq, iran, venezuela,UAE etc) and drilling for artic oil that is very costly to obtain will not only fuck up the environtment, but also keep prices where they are due to the high cost of the drilling...all im saying is that we really need to start caring about the earth, especially since us skiers will be the fisrt to feel the pain of melting snow.

Jul 15 2008 4:32PM
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MarkieR
Posts: 5337 - Karma: 98
the reality of the fact is that until oil companiies, car companies, and the government stop giving eachother hand jobs nothing is going to change. i realize that we can't just jump to another fuel source right now, but a significant first step needs to be taken. more tax money needs to be spent developing alternate sources of fuel. and as much as i hate to sound like a total leftist, people need to take this into their own hands and stop driving their cars everywhere. ride a bike or walk when it's possible. i don't know, maybe carpool. there are so many people that bitch about high gas prices but still drive solo in their escalades thirty minutes to work. i know people have grown used to certain things (big suv's, driving their own vehicle, etc...) but everyone needs to sacrafice a little bit.
Jul 15 2008 5:16PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
I will concede that the Xbox comment was out of line, sorry.

But let me know if you find that time machine. I can go back and not make that post...and we can also change the course of past US government policy.
Jul 15 2008 5:49PM
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GhostfaceKillah
Posts: 3398 - Karma: 10
i do play xbox and WoW and many other video games and I take pride in my gaming skills

but I'm also a 3rd year university student who has taken business, economics and philosophy courses so  i can hold my own in a political discussion about oil and the environment, i just dont waste my time doing so over NS
Jul 15 2008 6:49PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
Drilling=what we need right now

alternative sources=too expensive/not effecient enough right now but we need to keep developing them

Seriously, we cant just switch to alternative sources. It's just the way society is and how everything runs. We cant change it. The economy is going to go down the shitter unless we drill. The earth is a very important thing, no doubt, but the marginal benefits of drilling right now clearly outweigh the costs, both finantially and environmentally. So, what we need to do is continue developing alternative sources, and in the meantime, drill, get the economy back and as technology provides us with alternative sources or better gas savings methods, then we will not have to drill as much.


Environmental Issue:

My friend is an environmental consultant and a huge proponent to environmental protection. She's worked with tons of different companies, and through her experience, oil companies have been the most environmentally responsible(dont talk about CO2 here, that's not something they can control)


the location they would drill in ANWR is the size of dulles airport, and is under ice 8 months a year and a wetland the other 4. It's no that big of an area.



Sparknotes/Conclusion
There are many long term solutions to alternative sources of energy to even the design of cities(FUCK YOU 20th century subdivisions built for cars instead of pedestrains...), but what we NEED now is a strong economy and we should drill to help get it, and work increase effeciency and cost effectiveness of alternative sources and other ways to decrease oil...(I am looking at you cul-de-sac subdivision designer).
Jul 15 2008 7:02PM
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babujib
Posts: 5039 - Karma: 104
this is rediculous, everyone bashes on bush for high gas prices then he does something about it and everyones bashing on him again, jesus make up your mind
Jul 15 2008 7:11PM
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heFF
Posts: 5786 - Karma: 4,456
drill drill drill
Jul 15 2008 7:14PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,726
I am quite aware of how oil works. I am an engineer for the CSL fleet. Its my job to make sure we have fuel to run the ship. I know an engine can consume 25 tonnes a day. The chief engineer orders the fuel. The cost of oil influences the price of transport of goods. My point is drilling is not the answer, lets make this straight forward:
1. when prices are reduced on oil, the government will now ignore what happened because oil is no longer a problem. So, nothing will be done in the future.
2.Oil is still affordable.
3.This oil could be sold to the foreign market, so the US economy will have a blip of prosperity. Oil supply will diminish and we will be back at square one.
4.Government has invested 0$ in alternate fuel research. Bio diesel sucks
5.All research have been done by amateurs.
6.So lets throw away a fragile eco system for economic stability. Sounds pretty selfish.

Seriously Quinny, I thought you were going to be optimist about the situation. You seem to try to rationalize Bush's decision.
Jul 15 2008 8:15PM
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Shpadoinkle
Posts: 10437 - Karma: 84
What you don't realize is that "we" the people run the country. YOU vote for your senators, congressmen, etc. YOU put the people that you want into office. YOU need to remind them to keep up their job. They do listen you know. I e-mail one of my representative about every month or two about issues and now she calls me regularily about issues and what I think. She even invited me to go to DC with her once.
Jul 15 2008 8:22PM
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BASS_PRO_SHOP
Posts: 1519 - Karma: 52
that is the way to do it for sure... only problem is that bush doesnt really care haha. he's at a point right now where he's doing what he wants with hardly any opposition. wrong choice he's making? possibly, possibly not. hes trying to stabilize our country the best way possible as of now. but yeah girl, you got it down on how to actually be heard outside of an internet forum or some useless petition.
Jul 15 2008 9:02PM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
that is the worst thought out and written argument i've ever read.
Jul 15 2008 9:08PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
2. the price is not affordable to some people. it is going up too.
3. so we could also end up continuing to spend 700 billion dollars on foreign oil. I dont see us selling a lot of oil to other people in the future. Oil supply has a long way to go. There is tons of oil out there.
5. Im glad the professionals at energy companies and the professors at the leading universities are amateur.
6. drilling a few areas isn't throwing away a fragile eco system. first, the eco system is not that fragile. second, drilling for oil does not even come close to destroying the local eco systems around the drilling sites.

Jul 15 2008 9:12PM
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Shpadoinkle
Posts: 10437 - Karma: 84
I 100% agree with what you just said.
Jul 15 2008 9:55PM
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funk.
Posts: 2679 - Karma: 33
ANWR won't be reducing out oil prices anytime soon and by the time it comes around and starts pumping we might not even notice it.  I mean heck I'll probably get an extra five hundo in my dividend so fuck yeah that's my gas money..  But in reality the time better batteries, more abundant hydrogen etc. could be produced is when we will be seeing effects of ANWR.. it just doesn't seem worth it to me.
Jul 15 2008 10:41PM
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Karcher
Posts: 3788 - Karma: 1,934
thats so gay how hes doing that. why cant we leave our beautiful reserves alone? why?
Jul 16 2008 1:17AM
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1080bio
Posts: 2042 - Karma: 5
ANWR should not be opened to drilling,  It is one of the last truly wild places in north America and is home to the largest heard of caribou on earth not to mention scores of other wildlife.  ANWR only conatins around 10 billion barrels, at 20 million barrels used a day in the US thats a 520 day supply of oil.  But we could likely only get about 1.4 million barrels out a day therefore drilling would last for over twenty years. This may sound like a great solution to some of you but its not.  Maybe if this was 1977 and the pipeline had just been built and all of Alaska's oil was staying in the US.    Unfortianatly theres a dirty little secret the supporters of opening ANWR don't want you to know none of that oil has to be sold in the US.  The original agreement which was put in place when the pipeline was built and the north slope was beginning to be drilled was that the oil could only be sold to the US.  Since then that agreement is no longer in place and alaska's oil can be sold to the highest bidder which will not be the US.  So all opening ANWR will do is displace wildlife, ruin a wild place and have close to no affect on US gas prices.  For all of you conservatives who don't believe me im not some liberal hippie activist im actually a  Petroleum Geologist so id say my view is fairly non-bias.  Personally i think there are better places to start drilling with proper legislation in place that ensures none of the oil can be exported to foreign countries.  Oh and for all of you that buy into the whole we need to stop our reliance on middle eastern oil, don't.  Because most of our imported oil comes from Canada.       
Jul 16 2008 2:18AM
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Kajex
Posts: 1069 - Karma: 178
honestly, what is the closest thing to an alternative fuel source at the moment ?  we have the hydrogen cell, which i am not sure is stable enough to be risked in a head on collision ??  or bio fuel....  what the "green living " people dont mention is that one full tank of corn oil based fuel uses enough food to feed a starving somalian child for a year.  how about the smart car ?? very good on gas mileage, true.. unless you consider the fact it weighs half as much as most vehicles and therefore is terrible on mileage per pound.  ( not dissing the fact the smartcar makes more miles per gallon, just saying it shouldnt be praised as a breakthrough, any company could have cut weight on one of their models and advertised it accordingly.)
Jul 16 2008 3:59AM
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aurora.
Posts: 1169 - Karma: 104
excellent points and well said. you took the words right out of my mouth.
Jul 16 2008 8:37AM
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funk.
Posts: 2679 - Karma: 33
Best part of the whole thing.  Thank you.

^^ When I'm thinking alternative I'm mostly thinking Electric and Hydrogen.  I think with time the batteries will be more than sufficient and that hydrogen will be able to be used at a safe level.. I mean we drive around with a fucking tank of gasoline right under us.  If it had the money and time that the gov't could give it, it would work.

And about the bio-fuels.. fuck someone give me an argument that supports them.  To me they seem like a total failure.  I burn vegetable oil in my truck but only because I don't want to pay five dollars a gallon and if I wasn't using up the veggie oil it would be going to the dump.  When I'm down south I only buy premium gas because anything below 91 octane seems to be watered down with Ethanol. 
Jul 16 2008 1:05PM
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Phill.
Posts: 1149 - Karma: 37
hardly anything gets done in washington about energy cause most of the politicians are bought out by the oil companies i mean sure they talk big but nothing ever gets done..... at least thats the way i c it....
Jul 16 2008 1:37PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,726
This world does not belong to the US. Wildlife doesnt know about the boarders, so if something happens, the whole North region will be affected,not just Alaska, but Canada's wildlife will also be affected and maybe Russia's too. I dont live in the states, and Canada's representatives are useless. You "people" dont run a country, the country runs you.

Jul 16 2008 2:35PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
You don't get it. We need to do both. It's simply idiotic to think you can only do one but not the other. This is the very problem with partisan politics, "principle" overtakes practicality.

Define "affordable"? Travel and tourism are already suffering abuse from the high fuel prices, and the rest of the economy is starting to feel it too. It simply costs more to do business, and our economy is slowing because of it. Is it still going to be "affordable" in 5 years? How about 10 or 20?

If we compose an energy bill that incorporates new drilling AND exploration of alternate fuels, we'll be on the right track. You begin development to find something that can actually replace oil instead of just going cold turkey with no real option and breaking the backs of the average American and the economy in the process. The new drilling would ease the transition for everybody.

And who gives a shit about the foreign market? If we do any new drilling it should be ours alone until we can replace it. Let the rest of world buy their oil from the Middle East, Norway, Russia, and Venezuela. If we have alternative fuels in the pipeline and finally have them ready to go, we can then keep all the refineries open and then sell the oil to other countries after we are no longer dependant on it.

You call it a lack of optimism, I call it actually being realistic here. Give me one a source of energy that can truly replace fossil fuels right now? There isn't one. And you people keep insisting we can just deal with the rising prices until we somehow find this magical source of energy that we haven't even begun to look for? Even if we do exactly what you want and create a bill to pour billions into research, how long is it going to be until we find an adequate replacement? 20 years? Imagine what that oil we are buying from other countries will cost then. Use your head.

Compromise is whats needed here, not this one or the other crap.
Jul 16 2008 3:45PM
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encludemeout
Posts: 285 - Karma: 10
That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.
Oil isn't just cars dumbass. It powers your heat, lights, and a shit ton of other things. Our nation is almost completely dependent on oil, we simply can't just "not" use it.
Jul 16 2008 3:56PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Your tact could use work.
Jul 16 2008 4:14PM
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BASS_PRO_SHOP
Posts: 1519 - Karma: 52
no it doesnt, we're actually at the mercy of the oil-rich countries. and you're funny with that last statement. everyone thinks we're turning into some sort of soviet union but we are not. just most of the country is too dumb and lazy to go about making change. long, and tedious process with many dead ends, but it can be done and has been.
Jul 16 2008 4:30PM
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