Drill here. Drill now. Pay Less.

I am sorry also.

1.) Why don't you all get together and make a website? Or show me a website that supports saving ANWR.

2.) Again, whenever I go to research ANWR and drilling that's pretty much the only "official" website that I see. But I find it hard to believe that that the media and high powered people (senate and house leaders) I talk to and listen to are giving me a completely different story.

3.) Thanks to Clinton we could have already been drilling in ANWR, but I have heard that we have already done a little bit of drilling there.

4.) Well, exactly. Gas prices are not going to go down anytime soon and alternative fuels are going to be a while, but we can't just end the whole oil thing in an instant. It's like why can't the stupid armadillos evolve faster so they don't jump up in the air and proceed to get killed when I'm driving? Evolution takes time.

5.) Like I said, we can't just stop using oil. We need to stop depending on foreign oil.

6.) How come with the pipe line that's already up there has made the Caribou population double in size? Or is that just a myth?

Again, I appreciated everything you had to say, but I can't just change my mind over what you say. I need more information.

i had alot written out for you but then i accidently closed it and lost it all so you are going to have to look around on your own, its not that hard, i just googled it.



http://www.arcticwildlife.org/home.htm
dont forget to check out the "other sites" page

http://www.defenders.org/programs_and_policy/habitat_conservation/federal_lands/national_wildlife_refuges
/threats/arctic/index.php


this is a link that answers your caribou question (do you really think that oil development somehow makes caribou start shooting out babies?)

http://www.defenders.org/resources/publications/programs_and_policy/habitat_conservation/federal_lands/arctic/caribou_in_the_arctic_national_wildlife_refuge.pd

Worst grounds for a petition every. I lol'd again when I read the first post...

haha.

and i haven't been around so i don't know what the big debates have been about, is it just whether or not we should seek gas solutions on our own turf, or are we specifically talking about ANWR.

I don't think we should drill in ANWR :(

.

this was my fav,

"To lower gasoline prices and reduce our dependence on foreign oil, we need real solutions to our energy challenges. "

Actually, they're not.  My neighbor has one, and we live in Saranac Lake, NY.  We get a decent amount of snow, and her Prius handles fine.  Plus, our town is lazy as fuck and never plows the road, but she still hasn't gotten stuck yet.

Drew, I've been talking about it since the beginning.


If we don't drill in ANWR then we need to drill the hell out of the Gulf. We NEED to decrease and/or end our dependency on foreign oil. You guys think that alternative fuels are coming tomorrow and that everyone can afford to change over. You have to understand that these things take time. I'm not disagreeing that we need alternative fuels - I'm all for it. You have to understand that gas prices are so high because we are bidding for fuel against other countries (Indian, China, etc), and we aren't even paying the highest.

One of the points we're trying to make is that we need the high prices of gas to force the changover to cleaner solutions.

We know electric cars wont be on the road tomorrow and all gas engines will be gone. We're not stupid. Realistically though we need to phase out the unessecary use of gas engines as fast as we can and the only way that seems to work is by raising gas prices (which causes the market to looks for cheaper alternatives).

Slightly lowering gas prices will only delay the enevitable and new drill sites will only give the oil companies more time to bend us over and fuck us...

Congress doesn't give a shit. They can't even pass a credit check.

Sorry, but oil companies aren't doing this to us. It's just business and we are bidding for oil.

You're right, I've been mislead this whole time thinking oil companies were bad when all along all they want is the best for us. Fuck profits, fuck shareholders, oil companies are there for us the people and they always have been! Thats how the global market works right? It works for the people instead of for the money?

Wrong. You prove again how dim you truely are and little you actually know about this 'market' you always seem to be speaking of so highly.

and where is the basis for this comment? I never mentioned congress once...

They don't care about what's best for us. It's just another business like Wal-Mart. People own shares of the oil. How can I rephrase this for you? Money talks, bullshit walks? I think that works. It's just another business. The oil companies are selling their oil to the HIGHEST BIDDER.

I don't understand how I am wrong there. So if I am wrong then how does the whole oil industry work?

No, I mentioned Congress. Don't think that the world is centered around you.

i agree with nuclear fission and using it as alternative energy

1.) The Gwichi'n tribe homepage: http://www.qwichinsteeringcommittee.org/index.html
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: http://arctic.fws.gov/ctenergy.htm
Read the official USGS report yourself at: http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/OF98-34/

Let me know... I have more. These are the least biased sources I could find except the Gwichi'n website which I find insightful, seeing as they inhabit the area.

2.) Define official... Just because something looks trustworthy doesn't mean it is. But I sympathize, Its hard to find unbiased information from either side. Just be smart about who is responsible for what your looking at and choosing to accept. And Im confused... are you saying you trust the media and "high powered people" because... why? their high powered?

3.) (Three weeks ago in his state of the union address) Thanks to Bush for stating he'd do something about America's unacceptable "addiction to oil" and then in that next day cut the government National Renewable Energy Lab budget by $28 million. Clinton is in the past. I thought this was about "now."

The "little bit of drilling" was the 1987 USGS survey that took place to establish seismic information concerning the Northern slope of ANWR. No oil left the area.

4.) Exactly? I think you may have missed my point. I realize there is no simple solution. But we have an opportunity to start the evolution now. Instead of money being poured into the hands of oil companies and their high interest shareholders, tax cuts could extend a helping hand towards, say the Renewable Energy Lab. When do you see the evolution starting?

And i know this might get some hate but did it ever occur to you that the armadillo was there before the construction of your road? We have intelligent capability and therefore responsibility. We cant just disregard other life and our environment forever. We want it to just get out of our way until what.. there's just us left?

5.) As read in the (most recent) USGS 1999 survey of ANWR, the estimated output of economically recoverable oil is 11.8 billion barrels over about 40 years. The soonest drilling can start is five years. The most oil output in a day would be about 1 million barrels a day. ultimately the most it would do is decrease our overall dependance about 7% for no more than 20 years. We're looking at about a 1 cent decrease in the cost of fuel today.. if gas prices rise this will be an even smaller number.

The Energy Information Administration reports that China and India's majorly increasing demand for oil in their developing states will eventually offset Mexican, Venezulelan and Saudi ( three of U.S.'s top four importers.. Canada's Number 1) interest in trade with America. The EIA also reports that in the past three years there has been a slight but noteable decrease in dependancy on foreign oil. This is the first decrease in decades and actually dwarfs the estimated 7 -10 % decrease from foreign oil ANWR may cause. The decrease is entirely due to new interest in renewable resources. Lets make it happen. Now.

6.) How could a metal pipe (most of which is underground) double the population of a caribou herd? seriously. The natural flux of certain herds vary greatly from generation to generation and are attributed to countless variables... Think in terms of the number of wves in the ocean. Run over as many armadillos as you want. Im not even going to start on the caribou argument.

once again i've said more than I intended.. but this has made me think a lot and I appreciate the argument

Also just curious what you think about the proposed and highly debated drilling off the coast of Florida?

1) Thank you.

2)I never trust the government. Why do you think I am researching? And why do you think I carry a gun?

3)I just heard that they drill some years ago on the radio. I never heard anything about it in extensive detail.

4)Yes, we do need to start the evolution NOW. We should have started the evolution when people we waiting in extremely long lines at the gas point 30 years ago. We need to drill for OURSELVES. Not for China. Not for India. For us. Right now we are in a bidding for for oil with other large countries. That's why gas prices are so high.

Why does everyone think that conservatives hate the environment? It's not like that. We need to be more efficient. Look, I hate large box Wal-Mart's just as everyone else. We need to put money into rail systems. They were going to put in a rail system from Tampa to Orlando, but they didn't because of MONEY MONEY MONEY! MONEY!

5)We hardly drill for ourselves. We need to be more independent. We need our oil. While we are using that oil we need to start switching over to more environmentally and user friendly alternatives. I know gas prices won't go down, but we need OUR oil from OUR land. We need to learn to use less oil.

Yes, let's make alternative fuels NOW, but I don't see it being successful in the next ten years.

6)So am I being lied to again on the caribou issue? I really want to hear about this.

7)I am ALL FOR drilling off the coast of Florida. China is drilling off the coast for Cuba. Cuba is only 90 miles away from the Keys. Have you seen Sweden. They are the most environmentally friendly country I've seen and they drill right off the coast without people complaining.

if you understand this then how can you support them?

You're fucking weird...

a recent newsweek (with darwin and lincoln on the cover) has a good two-page spread (graphs and pictures and not much text) on the oil available in the US.

it also demonstrates that the united states started its downward slide of consuming more oil than it produced under bill clinton's presidency.  but since gas was $1 a gallon then, everyone lived for the moment, and didn't bother to think about the future. 

You're right, I should have just assumed that because you're mentally slow that you would quote me and post something completely unrelated to prove some point you want to make.

Dumb me...I should have known...

Dude, I don't want to be dependent on foreign oil. I'm not supporting on being dependent on foreign oil. But I KNOW that business is business. Have you ever been to an auction? I'm just explaining to you how it works.

I said Congress because I thought it was a great coincidence that gas prices started skyrocketing after the liberals took over. It's amazing how we pay for such idiots to be in office. Did you know that they get a raise every year? They vote for themselves on that one. Did you know that a large majority of them are in debt?

You only think I'm weird because I'm a conservative. We have two different views. It's the way the world works, babe. Get used to it.

If I was conservative, I would be embarassed to have you on my side.

Because that's what liberals do.
I talk to many people that feel the same way as I.
Don't get me even started on Bush because that's a WHOLE other subject.
No, not really, but ever since the liberals came in it's been a trip.

WTF? Imagine the oil business to be like Wal-Mart or Starbucks...there you go...end of story. It's owned by shareholders. Whoever owns the most shares of the company is the boss. The boss usually will name the price of what they are selling. I don't know how that is evil.

Ryno, you don't know me and you obviously don't know many conservatives. I'm also a Southern conservative...we are a different breed which is very far to the right.

So a) you hang out with a lot of stupid people which makes sense because b) you are the worst kind of conservative, southern conservatives that still live like its 1910...

I think a lot of you liberals are stupid too. Don't worry about it. We're even.

Here's the thing. We've been relying on fossil fuels since Cromagnon man discovered fire. To say that in the next five years we should completely abandon the fuel that we've been using for 150 thousand years is utterly ludicrous. With that said, we need alternative energy as soon as possible. What we need immediately, for the sake of the economy (since almost 70 percent of the scientific community is funded by American money, as well as other obvious reasons), is more oil as we make the transition to alternative energy . Problem is, we've banned ourselves from using our oil reserves.

ANWAR has between 5 and 10 billion barrels of oil. Offshore fields have between 20 and 30 billion barrels of oil. And the rocky mountains lie on top of the largest oil fields in the world. (www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/anwr/pdf/sroiaf(2008)03.pdf) It's been pointed out in this thread that ANWAR would only support the US's oil consumption for 5 years because the oil companies charge so much for oil.

However, right now gas companies make 4.2 cents per dollar that we spend on fuel. The state governments take approximately 30 cents per dollar in taxes (depending on the state). The federal government takes 18.4 cents. (www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/)

It's easy to punish the oil companies for the high price of gas with high taxes. It's obviously a popular move. But high taxes don't make a particularly great incentive for the oil companies to lower their prices. China and India don't have fuel taxes. Our oil companies can pack up and move at any time.

Our fuel taxes are then handed over to the federal and state bureaucrats to invest into finding alternative energy sources and ways of drilling through the rocky mountains. As Ryan pointed out, you can't always trust that somebody is investing properly. But who is more likely to invest better? A bureaucrat who is elected for life and whose job is politics? Or an oil company who depends on selling energy to survive and whose job is researching oil and oil alternatives?

What would happen if the oil companies were given some of the money that the government spends on researching oil drilling and alternatives (say, a couple hundred billion perhaps) as incentive to research and drill through the rocky mountains and in previously banned offshore locations at a lower taxation rate in the next three years (we need oil now), or all the money gets taxed back to the government at an increased percentage over the next couple decades. I bet they could do it.

And yes, it would hurt the environment a bit. But is reducing some damage to our environment worth destroying our economy over?

Living responsibly with environmental concern is also necessary, but ordering everybody to walk to work is impossible.

I feel like we have two options: Rely on foreign oil in an increasingly competitive market, have more miles of pristine wilderness, quickly force ourselves to live without oil, and ruin the economy. Or drill domestically, ruin some pristine wilderness, and successfully transition into alternative energy over the course of a few decades.

haha

i could not have said it any better myself. good job!

in case you dont know my stance, i side with option number 2.

The transition shouldn't have to take a couple of decades though. We have most of the technology we need to make this work already and what we don't have is on the cusp of begining perfected. The real problem is lack of funding for these alternative sources because oil is sucking up all the money in tax cuts and subsidies.

My stance is we say 'fuck you' to big oil by not giving them more licensing to drill because that will only mean the transition will take longer. They are the ones that need to go ASAP. We can make this transition NOW, oil companies are stalling us.

I can't see how giving them more licensing will help. You're just fucking yourself in the long run because your delaying true progress. Gas engines are not progress...they are early 1900 tech...and a dirty one at that.

The problem (right now anyway) isn't that there's not enough oil. China gets the majority of or oil so in return they fund our fucking war in Iraq.

+karma
That's the other thing. Oil companies pay off car companies so they don't make cars that get better mpg. Lots of people have made extremely fuel efficient engines and have been shut down by the oil companies.

Which is why we shouldn't support further drilling because they can continue to flood the market with oil for years to come while forcing everyone to comply with them...

see, the problem is that you can sit in your house and read all these "arguments" and "information", chew them up and spit them back out on the internet. Thats easy, anybody can do that.

i will level with you on the "electric cars" for a majority of americans that dont drive that far to work everyday (60-90 miles) would be a good thing and a step in the right direction. i wont level with you that we can switch over the country (world) right NOW or that we have the technology to do so.

1st) there are so many things wrong with alternative energy and fuels right now it would take days to hack out all the information and problems that come along with these new technologies. for example, the so called "electric cars" that you so love? well guess what powers them? um... electricity.... um guess where the majority of electricity comes from to power those cars? oil or coal plants so you still have the oil problem with electric cars. unless you want to build a nuclear power plant in every town, good luck getting that passed cuz we americans are self centered assholes and never want the solution in there back yard. (our town is trying to get a coal powered plant here and everybody is bitching about it, imagine trying to pass a nuclear plant. it would never happen)

2nd) even if we get electric cars back on the road, there are still many bugs to work out on them. (working in the cold, weight issues, charging issues, power issues, towing issues...) not to mention our immense infrastructure and transportation. good luck getting anything by train, boat or plane on electricity or some other type of alternative energy you have that wont work for logistical reasons and the real world.

3rd) even if both my number 1 and 2 were to happen you would still have to convince the "world" that these are good investments and to drop their dependency on their beloved oil.

4th) the point the kid above you was trying to make is that we still need oil to leech ourself off of oil and into the alternative energy and fuels stage. in order to research and develop energies and fuels we still NEED THE OIL to survive to switch over!

I would much rather pay 4 or 5 dollars for a gallon of gas if it was produced domestically rather than paying that same 4 or 5 dollars to some unstable government or some crazy leader like hugo chavez down in Venesuela (sp?).

This will be the greatest advancement in man-kind since oil was first discovered and its going to take time to work out all the kinks before this energy craze will work.

In case you havent noticed, in todays market if something doesnt work or take off the company usually looses too much money and shuts down. can you imagine the amount of money a car company would loose if it launched a product that didnt work? there is so much more to this problem than simple numbers. go out into the world and talk to different people, talk to business owners, talk to trucking companies, talk to logistical people and see what they have to say. get out and see what the real "problems" are in the world, dont just sit around and regurgitate back stuff you read on the internet.

BTW: almost everything i typed was from real world experiences.

Only 3% of the electricity in the U.S. comes from oil.  And personally that percentage is too high.  The U.S. has the largest reserves of Coal, and the 2nd largest reserves of Natural gas in the world.  That right there is important.  Especially because new coal filtering and purification techniques can make coal surprisingly clean.  And natural gas is naturally very clean burning.

Electricity is the key, because energy from Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear, hydroelectric, solar, and wind can be converted into it.  Oil technology for transportation is not obsolete, there definitely is a need for it.  I don't expect anyone to power a tractor-trailer truck with an electric motor.  And motorcycles can get upwards of 80 miles to the gallon.

And heres the big BUT.  Think about this... if we rapidly increase the production of more oil in the coming years, and in fact, gas prices drop down to $3 a gallon (for example)... what incentive does anyone have to switch fuel sources???

I actually do favor some increased, but limited drilling in ANWR.  But don't forget this either.  Part of the reason for rapid gas price increase, is because of the destruction of off shore rigs in the Gulf of Mexico during hurricanes Katrina and Rita.  These need to be rebuilt too.  The main reasons why I favor this are:

1) Our country already exports far more dollars than we import.  Thus part of the reason why inflation and the economy is so terrible.

2) There is going to be a transition period to alternative energy sources.  But like I said before.  The price needs to remain fairly high in order to give people incentive to switch over.  Because lets face it.  Americans are far to stubborn and self-centered to switch to a different fuel source simply for the greater good of the country, if the price of the alternative energy is the same as the current one.

The life span on most cars is about 12 years.  There are very few cars on the road today built before 1995.  And most people will buy/lease a new vehicle every 5-8 years.  Realistically we could see the vast majority of the population driving Electric and Natural gas vehicles in about 15 years.

So... what can you do today? 

Well for one, start conserving energy.  The country has taken a great step forward so far, with the whole '"green" focus.  By energy friendly lighting, and appliances for your home.  Turn the lights off when you aren't in a room.  My grandfather just built a new home, with all low-E light bulbs, installed motion sensors instead of light switches in some rooms, a tank-less water heater, and new low-E insulation and windows.  The house is estimated to have 44% less energy costs than similar homes of it's size.  Imagine that is years to come, if everyone switched over to technology like this, how low every costs would be.

Also I mentioned in a previous post, push and lobby for increased local and regional mass transit systems.  The more efficient we are at moving people and goods, the cheaper the cost will be.

Bush just lifted the ban of exploring and drilling for oil in the OCS (Outer Continental Shelf) so it looks like we are gonna start drilling and refining American oil.  He made a live television press conference earlier today
News Link!!!�

^
but there is still a federal law banning the off shore driling. all president bush did was reverse the order laws play out. instead of waiting for congress to pass anything and then go to the president, bush used his exectutive order to lift the band but now it goes to congress. now its in the hands of congress. thats what i got out of it anyways

And for that, I took the time to remove myself from that cult. If you want my membership solely for the statistic, heres a big FUCK YOU.

i read some, i laughed a lot.


ignorance FTW

whoa now.....  


the GOP cult is not a "gang rape" of liberals....


 i value everyones opinion, i just have a harder time valuing opinions when the posts look something like this...


"you fucking fucktard, you are so fucking retarded, go fuck your mom,  fuck off,   are you fucking dumb?"... well you get the idea... 


and in the GOP cult, we try to steer clear of that sort of thing, got a problem with that ?  

PS did you ever even look at the cult, or post?  


i didnt invite liberals just so i could claim diversity, i invited liberals so that everyone in the GOP could  have a mature debate...





"you stay classy NS"  

haha thanks  Ron Burgandy

I posted a few times before it died, but I've stopped posting in political threads for the most part. Too much ignorance when the site is mostly 13 year olds retelling what Daddy says about the president.

and that is why the GOP cult rules!


i think i am actually among the youngest of the members... (at 18)

once global warming really kicks in, america will on longer be prime land for cultivation of many cash crops and other exports that america is utilizing at the moment for money. countries further north will become better areas for these things. we arent drilling now because we will need an export in the future (oil) to save our country from poverty.


idk, i heard it somewhere

He's just bitter, Justin. Don't sweat it. Only real men and women debate like mature adults.

HAHAHAHAHAHA - Rowen, bitter? Glad you got jokes in that peanut sized brain of yours.

who knows?  he might be bitter....

but i wonder if he would fall under the typical white racisist who clings to guns, religion, and hatred of people who are different...

well on second thought, his little "fuck off" comment would probably fall under hatred of people who are different....   

Different as in conservative. Yeah. These liberals in here obviously have had no contact with the other side.

excuse me, it was "fuck you", not "fuck off" 


my most sincere apologies, i dont know how i could have let that one slip by....

^(check sarcasm meter for fluctuations ) ^

Where is the meter?

(no sarcasm) =====================*=====(high sarcasm) 


does this help that peanut sized brain of yours? 


whoa boy!  the sarcasm meter just hit a new high!