Hey democrats

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@th1337

I've heard stories from the other side. For a lot of my students in central Seattle, one has to work a lot harder than your average white middle class kid to get to college. The system does not give across the board pay for a set amount of work. Its an ignorant and foolish perspective to think that people are poor and squalor just because they dont put in the effort that a rich son of a millionaire obviously does.

Jun 10 2008 4:41PM

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TheQuailman

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Crazy Fool

Your an idiot, you know nothing about oil drilling. My friend just moved from Alaska to New Jersey this year. He said that they wanted to drill for oil and a bunch of liberal hippies complained and complained that the wild life was gunna die, pollution, etc. After they drilled wildlife population went up and pollution went down from the oil company being careful about the environment. I say that gas is gunna be $5 a fucking gallon we need to do many things about this, icluding drilling in Alaska.

My parents worked hard and I work hard. Plenty of people have risen out of the ghetto.

Jun 10 2008 5:25PM

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SirFryanator

Posts: 11149 - Karma: 1,415

Karma: 1,415

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Crazy Fool

I am neither democrat nor republican. I believe each and every one of us US citizens are a part of a community. Key word: commune. Not a communism, but a linkage between every man, woman, and child. If you cared about America, you would care about everyone. Not just the rich, nor just the poor.
This is why we need centrist people in power, and not flip-floppers or people who can't make up their minds.

Fuck the bi-partisan system...

Jun 10 2008 5:31PM

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coolhandluke

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No Life

!!!!

Jun 10 2008 5:53PM

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Crazy Fool

We're talking about a place where man has, to this day, barely made an intrusion. Your little oil wells are nice, and the ones down in Los Angeles are cute and all, but what is about to go down in Alaska is some industrial sized endeavor to get all the oil, fast and easy. That doesn't mean good for the environment, you'll notice.

I mean, I guess the idea of a giant pipeline running down the middle of a prairie in the most remote part of the American continent IS truly the greatest symbol of the USA's utter dependence on fossil fuels. I'll give you points for form, because that truly is the most vile consumerist vision.

Jun 10 2008 7:35PM

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J.D.

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@th1337

I really like the people flipping out over gas prices, going "Oh shit, we better do something fast! Quick fix quick fix! Drill in ANWAR!" ... not that it matters that such a project, even if it went ahead 100% with no reservations, would have absolutely zero effect on gas prices for at least 5 years.

Jun 10 2008 7:38PM

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Insane

Wow you just said I was wrong and gave no rebuttal nice

what you couldn't even try to poke a hole in my argument.
Why don't you just say I don't want to drill for oil in ANWAR because I don't want to instead of making up bullshit about cute little oil wells.

They already have pipelines which go to the ports and are then loaded on to ships to be taken to various refinaries along the pacific coast.

Just because its not good for the enviornment doesn't mean its bad.
There not going to be spoon feeding oil to all the little animals so why don't you go find some cute little facts.(btw I suggest the LA times NY time BBC and maybe a little CNN)

Jun 10 2008 7:45PM

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Insane

Also maybe so enviornmental impact reports written by unbias third parties those are always a good read.

Jun 10 2008 7:46PM

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Ghost

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Crazy Fool

Shot to the heart. I was reading that thinking it was one of the best quotes I've heard in a while.. Has to be Ghandi, Mother Therasa, or maybe even Jesus himself.. then bam! Barack Obama at the end. hahha

amazing quote though. and I think you just summed things up right there.

Jun 10 2008 9:41PM

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coolhandluke

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No Life

since a republican president created ANWAR, can't a republican president take ANWAR away?

but cereally, we do need true third informative third party input on serious issues. and not some "think tank" with a hidden political agenda. which is why a true unbiased report is nearly impossible to find.

Jun 10 2008 9:42PM

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bermbuster49

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Karma: 90

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Crazy Fool

because i'm already in lol, if its the GOP cult your talking about or whatever

Jun 10 2008 10:21PM

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bermbuster49

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Crazy Fool

by the way, good discussion guys, thanks for keeping it somewhat clean

Jun 10 2008 10:36PM

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Shpadoinkle

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Crazy Fool

Oh, hmmm. Ax told me to invite you. Whatever. WELCOME TO THE EVILNESS! MUHAHAHA!

Jun 10 2008 10:43PM

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Campeador

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Crazy Fool

Fact: Rush Limbaugh, Ronald Reagan, Bill O’Reilly and Dick Cheney have given large sums of money to people in need, while Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Michael Moore, Barack Obama, and Al Gore have not. Go ahead and look up yourself what they donate to. When it comes to government money however, they can be very generous.

Jun 10 2008 10:44PM

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Campeador

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Crazy Fool

We lived in a small two bedroom apartment, in a not so good neighborhood, for a whole year between four of us when we first moved to Chile. All while some lawyer tried to steal our money. Its a long story that I will not go into, but fuck you for your assumptions.

And on another note, I'm half white and half Chilean. Maybe you should read my post on the last page of the obama presumptive candidate thread before you throw out any more assumptions about me or my family.

Jun 10 2008 10:53PM

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Crazy Fool

Oh wait, I'm sorry, I can't play your assumption game now? But you were out there on a roll telling me how kids got it easy when they don't have a chance in the first place if they just work hard. It looked so fun, I figured I'd join.

How quaint that your trashing of other people is a gated community activity.

To Quailman, whose belt really is about head level:

"Your an idiot, you know nothing about oil drilling. My friend just moved from Alaska to New Jersey this year. He said that they wanted to drill for oil and a bunch of liberal hippies complained and complained that the wild life was gunna die, pollution, etc. After they drilled wildlife population went up and pollution went down from the oil company being careful about the environment. I say that gas is gunna be $5 a fucking gallon we need to do many things about this, icluding drilling in Alaska.

My parents worked hard and I work hard. Plenty of people have risen out of the ghetto."

So wildlife population went up. Can I get a source for that? Until then, let me hypothesize. The increase can be due to many, many things. One is waste products. They attract animals in for a quick fix, they explode due to the abundance, others follow, and bam! Healthy ecosystem, right? But wait, what about biodiversity? Species richness? Ecosystem productivity? Did they drill within a metapopulation's range for recovery? There's way more out there to be discussed, and trust me, the overwhelming scientific understanding is that drilling in the ANWR is a quick fix with potentially devastating consequences for the habitat up there.

But at least you're transparent. So long as gas prices go down, then you couldn't care less about what's going down thousands of miles away. Me me me. MY comfort, MY way of life. Your mentality caused this: http://www.greatgarbagepatch.org/

You know what's one thing we could do that you probably didn't think of? Stop our reliance on fossil fuels. Drilling in ANWR doesn't solve anything, it's treating the symptoms, not the disease. Everyone knows it.

Now, on to the work aspect. I'm not saying you don't work hard, or your parents, for their living. I'm saying that others will work just as hard, if not harder, for their entire lives, without ever getting an opportunity to advance. You've been given opportunities, as have I, and you haven't squandered it. That's commendable. But there are others who will never see that, not because of a lack of trying, but because the system is at this point blind to them.

Your point about how plenty of people have risen out the ghetto is a mere cop out for the existence of ghettos int he first place. "Well, they've gotten out before, so it's not that big a deal" Oh, but it is. If we truly were the greatest nation in the world, for all of our resources, we wouldn't have ghettos, a class of people who live day to day, or any barriers anymore.

But we do. Because the rich get rich, and keep getting rich. The poor, well fuck them those lazy asses.

Jun 10 2008 11:21PM

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Crazy Fool

Yes, yes it does. You're twelve and going to inherit the world we are polluting right now. Your position makes no sense unless you enjoy the idea of the world consumed to the fullest until there was no more, which you get to inhabit.

I hope you get to go to a place devoid of human impact at some point and see why they deserve protecting.

Jun 10 2008 11:31PM

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Bangor

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Crazy Fool

It's funny I was about to say that JD should have left that quote anonymous.......

but I agree, I think that quote is what many people on both sides of the debate would like to strive for; I think it's the means to an end which always seem to be the stumbling block.

Jun 10 2008 11:45PM

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Insane

look at a map of Alaska

now put a pin in it

That is ANWAR

thanks you very much

play again sometime

oh I'm not quite 12 anymore and I care greatly for the enviornment and animals and I've sacrificed probably more then you think. I just hate having biased sources tell me what to think and your argument sounds like it came from so carpet munching no shaving bitch from sierra club or green peace or what ever your citing from how much it will destroy the enviornment.

You severly underestamate how good the enviornment is at recovering once it is left alone for awhile not to mention that the oil companies will have to repair the damage they create and will give money for conservation in the areas around ANWAR.

Jun 11 2008 12:18AM

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Crazy Fool

"Thanks" you very much as well.

You see, this doesn't solve our dependence on a finite and ultimately deleterious resource. The environment is great at recovering. But why the hell should it HAVE to recover if what we're doing isn't actually helping reduce the problem in the first place?

"Well, we could just build the levies higher..."

Let's talk about pins, too, because that pin, as it were, will have essentially no impact on oil prices for the USA. Good thing we're getting it, then, eh?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4542853/

I mean, that's the wilderness I want to see. Roads and pipelines through fields for essentially no profit.

Jun 11 2008 12:47AM

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Alex_G

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Crazy Fool

I want to see evidence. Please. You can't say "Fact" and not have any evidence right there for us to see that you have backed it up, or else some jackass like me will jump all over it. I don't believe that.

Jun 11 2008 1:08AM

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Insane

I'm all for developing new sources of energy but we if we run out of what we have were fucked

And it will pay off but it will take years (i've heard anywhere from 5 to 10 years) which is why we need to act now cause if we had started on it when Clinton was in we wouldn't be in such serious need for forieng oil (which is most important cause I want to rely on the middle east as little as possible)

Plus every other country in the world is drilling wherever they find oil, building new refinaries, investing in coal to oil technologies, and putting in nuclear power plants. What are we doing were not drilling, were cutting back our refining capabilities, trying to shut down our nuclear power plants, and investing in something that is increasing the price of our food.

Seems kinda stupid hun?

And your telling me your going to go all the way to ANWAR to see wilderness when you could basically go to any other part of Alaska or any other state that has widerness because you dont want to see a little tiny area in a huge fucking state have oil being drilled.

How are you going to feel when they have big ugly solar panels or giant ugly wind towers, or when they take away beach's to put up converters to harness the power of the waves. Or big new power plants that may cause cancer when we have to start relying on electricity even more.
Energy isn't an astetically pleasing buisness anyway you look at it.

Jun 11 2008 1:11AM

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tjski

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No Life

word... i especialy agree with your first part..

Jun 11 2008 1:14AM

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Crazy Fool

"I'm all for developing new sources of energy but we if we run out of what we have were fucked"

That makes absolutely no sense... You should be all for developing new energies BECAUSE if we run out of oil we're fucked. You have that backwards.

If we had started drilling in ANWR 10 years ago, we'd have about 22 more years of milking until it was all over. That's a very short fix. 10.4 billion barrels estimated, 876 000 a day, doesn't last forever, and hardly long enough to be worthwhile.

"Plus every other country in the world is drilling wherever they find oil, building new refinaries"

And I deplore that as much as the next person. And this isn't a penis sizing game, or shouldn't be. Who gives a shit if other countries are doing more coal and oil based stuff than us? China and India love CFCs, but we outgrew those once we saw it caused holes in the ozone.

And the argument about it being a tiny place in a "huge fucking state" is the exact mentality you need to not give a shit. So long as it's way the heck away and out of sight, that makes it completely worthwhile. Sorry dude, but 30 years of oil that doesn't alleviate our foreign dependence isn't a good deal, unless you think in the short term.

Solar panels as an eyesore? Do you like the pumps in your backyard? Go well with the rhododendrons? You can put solar panels on every roof in California and offset thousands of dollars worth of energy bills for each and every person, and help curve oil consumption. Wind towers have their problems, with birds and all getting killed, but I'd rather see dozens of wind tunnels that don't pollute or have the ability to producing my energy than coal or oil. Oh, and they won't "take away beaches", like all of them are all of a sudden massive powerhouses. Your hyperbole is amusing, if inaccurate.

You know who we would do well to mimic? Iceland. Pretty soon they won't need any fossil fuels for their energy thanks to geothermal energy. See, they've focused their money on their assets, and they got the technology to boot. Imagine if we spent as much time and energy into finding alternative sources of energy as we do getting a buck from oil? Given their profits, i'd say we'd be well on our way to sustainable living. Here in the USA, there's enough geothermal, deep mantle energy, sun, let alone wind in tornado alley, to offset nearly all our oil dependency. There's just no money in it, and it isn't quick fix. But once fixed, it's fixed.

"When we start relying on electricity even more"

Dude, do you know where electricity comes from? We're already dependent on it, and it isn't something we drill for. I'll give you a hint: we drill for other stuff that makes electricity. Wanna guess what it is? OIL! WOO HOO! Oh, and we use coal and natural gas and crap too. Just sayin though, electricity is here to stay.

Jun 11 2008 2:09AM

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Insane

It makes absolute sense we need to have a backup plan in case alternative energy sources dont pan out soon enough.

ANWAR would be a temporary fix correct so while were at it lets drill Santa Barbra, Off of Florida, In the Gulf, and Off the coast of Alaska. then it would be a long term fix.

All the coutries do it because they realize they can let the tree huggers drag down the good of the country for some little piece of land that they have no way of proven will be damaged.

What if I dont want my beautiful countryside covered with ugly solar panals or wind generators or more power plants or more this or more that. Its the same as you saying you dont want to see a pipeline. Someone going to have to give in why not you? Why dont we not give any one a choice and drill, put in pipelines, put in solar panals, a wind generators, and ugly as power plants. And personally I dont mind the pumps as I said the nice oil companies put up beautiful man made islands to hide the off shore pumps as for the pumps on land the put in nice looking trees and plants around them hell they even bought land and put a park in next to some of them the one near my house has a baseball diamond, tennis courts, a nice little bike path, a playground for kids to use so I can hardly notice the wells when they their are so many nicer thing to focus on. Hell money from the oils comany is going to fix up a lagoon that the dems in my town turned into a run of for some wastes its not even next to an oil well (i think it was nice of them) They also add well paying jobs in the comunity that go to less educated people.

As for the ocean I don't see the moon floating of in to space anytime soon so that means the tides are going to be coming in and out for a while. Wave are quite powerful and would have zero polution but where ever they are we would lose beach cause you couldn't have people in the water with machinery that could hurt them.

Hmm the population of Iceland is slightly over 300,000 the US 301,100,000 can you see any problems.
The smaller country with a smaller population is going to have an easier time being completly self sufficient. Iceland has 13,034 km worth of road im not even going to post the amount of road in the US but maybe you could give an example of a country comparable to the US (please I would be interested in reading up on it)

No way i never knew about electricity I alway thought my laptop ran on raimbow's and unicorn tears. But if we go for all the alt. sources of energy you recamended we would need more power plants and I do believe that power plans have been linked to birth defects and cancers. Last time I check my growing up near oil didn't cause me to grow a third testicle and extra eye or an oddly placed extra nipple( even though it would be great to have all those things)

So to conclude I would rather drill and get alt sources of energy cause you can never have to many options. (Hey i just thought of something we could get stationary bikes and connect them to a turbine and hire poor people to ride them we would be oil dependance poverty and obecsity)

Jun 11 2008 3:43AM

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NoTeefa

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Crazy Fool

Amen

Jun 11 2008 5:09AM

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Crazy Fool

No, it isn't a long term fix, because then we're still dependent on a non renewable resource. Do you understand what that means? Once we use it, it's gone.

Wind, water, geothermal, biomass, solar, these are all renewable resources. Developing them so that in time the technology is such that it is as non intrusive and efficient as possible is a much better deal than drilling for oil, because when it's done, we're not burning fossil fuels, we have minimal impact on the environment, and energy is no longer linked to foreign interests.

Oh, and we wouldn't need so many power plants. Seriously, alternative energies don't need the power plants that you " do believe[...] have been linked to birth defects and cancers". Where the hell did you get that stat? Do windvanes need a powerplant? Get your terms straight there kiddo. They do need facilities, converters and such, but it isn't anything like the power plants OIL, COAL and NATURAL GAS need to make electricity. YOUR oil drilling makes for more powerplants, more polluting pieces of sulfur and carbon spewing chimneys from finite fossil fuels that cause "birth defects and cancer". Can you show me where a hydroelectric dynamo causes cancer? Can you show where a windvane caused someone's child to be born without a brain?

Jun 11 2008 11:13AM

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Addict

Thats exactly my image of the poor.

Its exactly the mindset my parents had when they moved to this country. Its the mindset they still have today and imparted upon me. Its the mindset all the chinese friends they have/had when they moved to this country and every single one of them makes 6 figures.

I know of at least 60-100 chinese people (30-50 families) who all make 6-7 figures who all came to america with literally speaking 0 dollars and 0 cents with nothing but 2 year scholarships to shit schools. They all have Masters degrees or better.

The stereotypical work hard study blah blah asian/indian work ethic and mindset didn't come from no where.

You don't know my parents so please don't speak on them so surely. They had no government help at any time in their lives. They recieved a 2 year/$30,000 scholarship to Queens college in Queens new york because after the whole debaucle with the Cultural revolution, there was an exchange program offered to kids who scored high on some test.

Both my parents worked a total of 8 jobs making about $37,000 a year. They didnt use that money to buy booze or have any fun. Neither owned a television. They used it to fund school and english lessons. Apart from attending school full time they also learned english and acheived citizenship. I have said it once and will say it again: If my parents can make 6 figures and livein the top 2% of the US, any functional human being can. PERIOD. I'm sick and tired of people who make excuses and look towards social programs. My parents never once thought about receiving welfare (they couldnt BECAUSE THEY WERENT US CITIZENS).

Unless there is something physically barring you from acheiving your goals, you have absolutely no excuse. Compared to communist china in the 60's and 70's, the ghetto seems like the land of oppurtunity.

My parents have the fuck everyone else mindset because they didn't ask for help. They acheived what they did themselves and didn't rely on other people to do things for them. Thats the attitude everyone should have. What makes it so impossible for poor people to become rich? MY PARENTS DIDN'T EVEN HAVE CONTACT WITH THEIR PARENTS WHILE THEY WORKED.

Jun 11 2008 12:50PM

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Addict

read my previous posts about my parents and their friends.

Jun 11 2008 12:52PM

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Addict

E pluribus unum pertains to the legitimacy of a federal government- not socialism.

The last thing E pluribus unum is meant to mean is we should all bow down to the greater good and give everything we have to unity. It means out of many independent states, one nation is formed. It emphasizes independence as much and unity. And don't argue with me on connotation here. I studied this phrase in latin.

Jun 11 2008 12:54PM

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Addict

O and before anyone starts saying how kids in the ghetto don't get a proper education"

My dad didn't go to school. He wasn't allowed to. Mao forced him to work on a farm. He now has a masters degree in computer science from NYU (a top 25 school)

Jun 11 2008 12:57PM

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Insane

So I say that we need to not only use our oil that we have but to also develop other sources of energy and you still bitch and moan. And it would decrease our dependance on foriegn oil which is important.

Yes we will still need more energy facilities for these alternative sources of energy.

I never said windvains caused cancer.
I am unaware of any child to be born with out a brain in fact I believe it to be impossible no common since maybe.

http://pennsylvania.sierraclub.org/PAChapter/Committees/PP%20CTA%20factsheetPAfinal.pdf cancer caused by power plants (i know sierra club but I believe this was writen by a different source.)

Jun 11 2008 1:45PM

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Insane

I have a brain but its only capable of being indoctrinated by my neo-con parents....

Whos favorite presidents were Carter and Kenndy and both registered dems

hay wait a second

Jun 11 2008 1:47PM

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Alex_G

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Crazy Fool

Your dad is a smart guy, but did he have to deal with gangs and shit? Did he have to deal with the fear of getting killed before he graduated 8th grade? Also, that's only one person. Yeah it's possible to get out of it but people need to be pointed into the right direction. I'm not demeaning your dad's accomplishment in any way shape or form.

Jun 11 2008 2:58PM

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[~_~]

Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273

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@th1337

thats right, we should just rape every natural resource we have for our big trucks until there will be nothing left. Fuck nature, we have TV nowadays, right?

Piss off, ya cunt.

Jun 11 2008 3:21PM

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Shpadoinkle

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Crazy Fool

My tallies are leaning so far to the left that I feel like I'm going to...well....I don't know yet.

Jun 11 2008 3:51PM

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@th1337

Because its Keeping up with the Kardashians now, energy crisis and global collapse later.

Jun 11 2008 4:35PM

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Crazy Fool

You know why I keep "bitching and moaning?"

Because you're an idiot, plain and simple. You just now handed me your argument's ass on a silver platter and you still think you've struck a chord.

You see, that nice little pdf of yours, it points EXACTLY why our dependence upon oil, coal and natural gas is BAD. Those power plants you're freaked about? The ones that cause cancer? The ones being talked about in that pdf you like? They are ALL power plants that use fossil fuels as a source. All the symptoms from those plants are from fossil fuel burning: lung cancer, acid rain...

You just now stated the very evidence that I rely upon to tell you that drilling for oil = no bueno, yet you seem convinced of the opposite truth, that windvanes, dynamos and solar panels have power plants that cause cancer.

Your reading comprehension needs to go up a lil bit until you can properly harangue the masses.

Jun 11 2008 5:23PM

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Insane

oh your so right I'm going to go scrap my car now and blow my savings on some solar panals. Oil is bad your so right your intelligent amazes my tiny little brain.

Please tell me how to improve my reading comp. ive been trying and trying but I just cant do it.

Or you could treat a debate with some respect and leave out any unneccisary insults expecally when you don't know how smart I am.

Jun 11 2008 5:42PM

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Insane

yeah and I got a 32 on my ACT for reading comp what you should have been insulting would be my mechanics.

Jun 11 2008 5:45PM

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Addict

he didnt have to deal with gangs and shit. Nope. What he did have to deal with was first the Japanese occupation of China (my dads pretty old), having his dad imprisoned for being influencial. Then he had to deal with warlords in china who killed many of his class mates. It was not uncommon during the 50's for rural chinese teens to have AK47s and pistols to fight off communism and the such. Then he was brutally forced to work on a farm much like a slave.

This is a story that almost all of our chinese friends faced and now all seem to be living happily in america.

Not only did my dad move from the shit end of the world, but he also moved into a ghetto. Thats right he lived in queens for 10 years. He got robbed so many times youd think it would make it impossible for him to get a job.

Not only that, he also didn't know english. He taught it to himself and acheived citizenship! He had to study US history. I bet none of you could pass the citizenship test.

Compared to my dads situation, getting out of a ghetto is like a cakewalk. Seriously. And its not one man. Its an entire demographic. Pretty much all the first generation successful Indian, Chinese, Iranian businessmen and whatnot have similar stories.

It shows if one man can do it, everyone can.

Jun 12 2008 4:19PM

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Addict

The question WAS whether or not one CAN succeed in this system. But seeing as how you've tried to slyly and sneakily escape from it, ill address your next assertion.

The answer is it is not up to us to make other peoples live better. It should be a matter of choice. Just as it is our freedom to pursue life and liberty, it is our freedom to pursue happiness. If being happy entails that we are inherently selfish, then so be it. It is one of our fundemental liberties that the government should not tell us how to spend our earned money.

Im not saying leaving an entire demographic to rot is right either. But having the government forcing us into a persumed "charity" is far worse. No matter how much a government provides there will always be disparity amoung generations due to primarily the effort put forth by ancestors no matter how distant. Sure some people get screwed this generation but its not upon me to make up for his shortcomings.

I was born Asian. It sucks i know. It was completely unfair and had nothing to do with my hard work. I have a small dick. If you wanted to be charitable you would cut off some of your dick and donate it to me. How do you feel about that?

Jun 12 2008 4:25PM

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Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844

Karma: 13,844

Posts: 25443

@th1337

Hooray, you excel at filling in bubbles. Lackadaisical grammar doesn't exactly help your side in a written argument.

Jun 12 2008 4:30PM

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Posts: 868 - Karma: 10

Karma: 10

Posts: 868

Insane

Wow thats so wrong its like your trying to say that communisms bad. Plus Mao is like a puppy compared to the evil racist bush.

So he learned a new language and the history of our great country with no help its nothing compared to the people in the ghetto who get text books and teacher(who are bad a don't care) and who probably robbed your dad.

The people in the ghetto are told they cant achive anything so they quit your dad was so stupid he couldn't possible understand it when they told him their was no possible he could get out of the ghetto.

The asian race must be surperior to all which is why they defy everything and can make something out of them selfs its not like the try in school or work hard or anything like that.

Jun 12 2008 4:31PM

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Posts: 868 - Karma: 10

Karma: 10

Posts: 868

Insane

it basically means I understand anything I read extremly fast. I dont typically communicate by writting and I'm a pretty good speaker. I cant really change mechanics or spelling your just lucky that I proof read to make sure I dont mix up letters cause of my slight dyslexia.

Jun 12 2008 4:38PM

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Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844

Karma: 13,844

Posts: 25443

@th1337

Heres my thoughts, related through a local example:

A few years ago in Seattle, a proposition was drawn up to replace the crumbling viaduct thats blocking our city's seafront. Basically, its going to collapse next earthquake. People were given a choice. Replace it with an underground tunnel (expensive but beautiful), make it a surface street (noisy but cost effective), or replace it with another above ground highway (cheap, but its a ugly piece of ass).

People in Seattle wanted the tunnel. From many of our standpoints, you knock the piece of shit down, land values go up, and the terrific cost of building it would be offset by the increased flow of traffic (wider below ground lanes) and the rise in our tourism industry and Seattle property values as the seafront finally develops and becomes beautiful.

It was left up to the people statewide to make a decision. You know what people statewide thought? They didnt want to pay for it. They never used it, so they didnt see the benefit. Basically, they didnt care, and to them, it was just a mandatory $2 instead of $1. Its speculation, but in my eyes, doing something good for Seattle would eventually help them, as a better port city in this state benefits farmers and industry.

The point is, people, naturally, are selfish. For a large society to work and function, you have to submit a bit of faith over to the government in order to get shit done. Sure, the government needs to be watched, and yes, I totally understand there is widespread corruption and waste. But the point is, if you swing it the other way, and let everyone fend for themselves, nothing will get done until its desperately needed, eg, our viaduct falls down and Seattle streets become a shitfest for years while its rebuilt.

Fuck, people are selfish when left to their own devices. We think of selfishness as being bad for a few reasons, mostly because it counters progress in society created by coming together. I think its of utmost importance that we remain eusocial instead of reverting to self serving individualism, as eusociality has been the driving force behind all of mans progress. If that requires me unwillingly donating a few bucks each month to a program that helps maintain our society, I really could care less. Its not about being equal, its about preserving a society. Disparity is going to exist no matter what, but throughout history, society has always helped the poor. Charity is not some new 20th century invention, and I firmly believe that benefiting the poorer members of our society does in fact enrich the whole.

Jun 12 2008 4:47PM

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SirFryanator

Posts: 11149 - Karma: 1,415

Karma: 1,415

Posts: 11149

Crazy Fool

Honestly, don't use dyslexia as a handicap. I have a couple of mental problems myself (diagnosed and all) and when I lose my temper/get attacks I don't say "ZOMG SORRY LOLZ I HAVE PROBLEMSZZZZ" I apologize and I get on with it.
When you're in this kind of thread on NS you WILL be called out for anything. Get over it, and learn how arguing on NS works.

Jun 12 2008 4:49PM

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