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Oil at $121

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sowstochd
Posts: 1518 - Karma: 59
discuss
May 6 2008 10:19AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
and the oil companies are going to sit there and allow the car companies become less dependent on them for  oil?
May 6 2008 7:08PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
its a free marker(at least it used to be)  if the car company's have something better, then what they have now, you better bet your ass they would throw  a 100MPG engine on the market,  they would instantly have the upper hand on all other car company's that are still producing a 15MPG engine.
May 6 2008 7:13PM
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S-Titterington
Posts: 578 - Karma: 1,323
i put 50 bucks in and got 37 litres :(
May 6 2008 7:18PM
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kepler.
Posts: 8761 - Karma: 139
And your country is a whole what, 4 square miles? I'm kidding about the actual size but remember it is TINY compared to the U.S. Commutes aren't very big and people don't have to drive hundreds of miles a week to go to their jobs.

Anyhoo, the reason I'm jumping into this conversation is to mention the possibility of a work program. Something along the lines of the Civilian Conservation Corps dreamed up all those years ago. We have an unemployment problem, we have an energy crisis. Let's combine the two.

Nobody can argue the fact that oil is the future, one could easily argue that electricity is. Since our country is nowhere near ready to take on the power output needed for a country of electric cars, why not just start a job program where people could travel the country building nuclear, wind, whatever plants to get us ready? Simple no?
May 6 2008 7:31PM
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doublexl
Posts: 8407 - Karma: 27
honda just came out with a car that runs on hydrogen-water essentially.

that sounds pretty damn green to me.
May 6 2008 7:46PM
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chicken
Posts: 6843 - Karma: 2,123
every second actaualy it procces many thousands (millions?) of times more energy than we use in a year. but being so far away we obviously can't capture all of it



May 6 2008 7:55PM
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coolhandluke
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 153
we can give all the unemployed people stationary bikes hooked up to generators.  solve the umemployement problem, energy crisis, and overweight problems all at once.
May 6 2008 7:58PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
and if this product is ever brought to market, and competes with its gas counter parts, i would bet it would beat out gas.   and guess what that does to honda's bottom line? they make tons of $$ because they were the ones, that came up, and perfected a innovation, and they will reap the benefits of their labor.

for all you nay sayers, about big bad oil stopping all innovation away from gas, does this finally make you realize you are wrong?   if car company's can gain the upper hand, over their competitors, they will. they will give oil "the finger" and make cars people want, whether  that be gas guzzlers, or electric, car company's will make cars that people want.  
May 6 2008 8:03PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
this seems like a win win, if you ask me.

haha
May 6 2008 8:04PM
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coolhandluke
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 153
au contraire mon fraire, it is a win-win-win
May 6 2008 8:06PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i iz failure.

haha
May 6 2008 8:07PM
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Static
Posts: 8553 - Karma: 4,089
electric cars are where it's at, the new tesla roadster is rated at $0.02/mile, while a car getting 20 mpg costs about $0.18/mile to drive. In two years they're (tesla) droping a 4 door sedan at 60k, 70k if you want a back up gas engine, then by 2012 they're releasing a car at 30K. Also I think it's important we turn our backs on the car companys that sold us out to the oil companys like GM. We just need to play all these corporations like they play us, as soon as their is a cheaper alternative we need to take it. You think the oil comapnys will go out of business? Hell no they'll lower their prices as low as they can to stay alive, it's the exact same train of thought they use against us, charge us as much as we're willing to pay. You guys shouldn't really be comparing the price of a fill up either, cars all have different sized gas tanks, and we all fill up with different ammounts still in the tank. Hell it cost me $168 to fill up my boat two weeks ago, 35 gallons of 87oct at $4.80.
May 6 2008 8:27PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
Apparently no one even looked at my last post.

Lets talk about hydrogen first. Hydrogen cars run off of hydrogen not water. Water is an extremely stable liquid and takes a considerable amount of energy "electrolysis" to break the hydrogen and oxygen apart. In fact it takes about a two to one ration of gas to hydrogen energy swing which is bad. So most hydrogen comes from natural gas. Which is also drilled, completed and produced just like crude oil. So we would still be reliant on fossil fuels. You could use an external energy source like nuclear to power to split hydrogen and make water but charging batteries is more efficient. Also you can't make a nuclear powered car. You need reactors and control rods and cooling towers and thousands of gallons of water to make a nuclear reactor work.

The thermal efficiencies of gas are such that at max efficiency a car could get 80 miles a gallon or so. Most engines get at most 20% thermal efficiency which is pretty good. There is no technology that can make cars get 100 miles per gallon.

Oil companies own the rights to many alternative energy technologies which they share openly with the scientific community. They also invest in these technologies. There was some collusion and buying out of potential competing pattents in the days of standard oil but there is nothing like that today. There is no oil conspiracy. There is nothing like that its an urban myth it is not true in any way and I challenge anyone to even provide a shred of evidence of a conspiracy existing.
May 6 2008 8:27PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
forget the airlines. its gonna put me out of buisness

















but i can still bike so not really
May 6 2008 8:34PM
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casualfiasco
Posts: 662 - Karma: 10
Cliff notes:
Gas tax isnt answer, nor is current electric and hydrogen car situation

i hate to rant cause i believe in your fuck gas statement, but if the government would take away the gas tax, it has be shown by economist, whose job it is to study this shit, that the price would just inflate right back to were it was. This means not only would the relief be temporary and not even that great, when the tax is reinstated, the cost would be much higher.

On another note, when people have talked about hydrogen and electric cars being the answer, it is very superficial. First off both of these options wont work, unless the energy it takes to make hydrogen or electricity starts coming from renewable sources. Currently around 70% of electricity in the states comes from petroleum power plants. To have electric cars whose electricity is gas based, kind of defeats the purpose. On the other hand, if we can stop being retarded about trying to go 100% ethanol (corn has the largest carbon footprint out of any crop) and start focusing on truely renewable and getting 100% away from petroleum, these gas prices will start to be irrelavent.
May 6 2008 8:38PM
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Static
Posts: 8553 - Karma: 4,089
The most important factor to me is price, I don't care if they make cars run off gravy as long as it's cheap. Sure most of the electric power comes from oil, but that's changing, and we already have en electrical system set up to every home in the country. A couple months ago they made some serious battery breakthroughs too, extending battery life 10x.
May 6 2008 8:49PM
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honeydip
Posts: 984 - Karma: 20
today i filled up my car 3/4 full and it cost 85 doll hairs
May 6 2008 8:51PM
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Static
Posts: 8553 - Karma: 4,089
you shuold have filled it up all the way, it's only gona be more expensive next time.
May 6 2008 8:54PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
i'll tie myself to somebody elses car...
May 6 2008 8:56PM
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funk.
Posts: 2679 - Karma: 33
The gas tax removal will only save you 30 dollars over the course of the whole summer if you drive 3000 miles.  Also if they do take off the gas tax the oil companies can just raise it that much more.


About hydrogen. This is NOT the answer right now.  Maybe in 20 years but for the moment a hydrogen car costs between $600,000 and $1,000,000.

Personally I say Hybrid and full electric cars are the way to go until we can figure out a way to get away from gas more cheaply.  I WANT A FUCKING EV1!!!!!!!!  (and GMC Sierra-Hybrid)
May 6 2008 10:58PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
i was saying that the oil companies would out bid the car companies for the tech, and not release it-- why let car owners have 75 more miles to the gallon for free when you can charge for it..

i think the oil companies would be just as much a player in a market as the car companies, and that for every success towards independence from oil there is a group dedicated to curbing that success, and is trying to keep consumers attached to big oil.
May 6 2008 11:23PM
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jibsworth
Posts: 1554 - Karma: 12
Yes, but in a country the size of an average American state you clearly have to drive much less and thus consume less gas then the average American. Your average weekly expenditure is probabllly the same.
May 7 2008 9:40AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
im sorry this is BS, do you have any idea how much money big oil invests in "renuable alternatives"

and by your logic, why have car company's started coming out with gas electric hybrids, because i thought big oil was going to by up all the plans, and force us to keep using inefficient engines.
see, they didnt stop hybrids, so how are they stopping an engine that gets 100MPG?   

oil company's are not as bad, as you, and every other NSer think.
May 7 2008 9:44AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
considering GM killed it's electric car for no reason at all other than it didn't run on gas i don't trust them one bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

watch who killed the electric car. there is NO reason why we don't have electric cars as a major option for buying cars these days.


don't forget this is 2008, we were suppose to have flying cars by now. there is a reason why electric hasn't been a major source of r&d-- and thats because of oil
May 7 2008 10:05AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
thanks for the wikapedia article, im sure its true,  o wait, better go check it again, because, guess what? i just changed it saying the earth is flat...


second, did you ever think that when "GM killed the electric car" that there was no market for an electric car. because if gas is only 1.10$ a gallon, why would anyone switch?

fact is, company's are driven by profit, and back then, an electric car was not going to make money, now it might, be profitable for company's to be selling electric cars... so guess what? if the demand is now here for an electric car, we will have an electric car, you know why? because company's want to be the dominant player in that market.
May 7 2008 11:08AM
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SolMi
Posts: 337 - Karma: 14
you got that right on except obama is against taking off the tax because it will only save the average american around 28 dollars this summer
May 7 2008 11:17AM
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720skiguy
Posts: 4553 - Karma: 21
you make a good point by saying no one would switch. however, if they "killed it" it's not like they would burn the plans. and therefore at this point they would be realeasing that car or somethign similiar, no?

your way too optimistic dude, i wish i had your attitude.
May 7 2008 11:41AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
haha is your cup half full, or is it half empty?



my thoughts on the electric car is, they dont have it perfected, yet, and if you look at what GM is doing you would have to be an idiot not to realize they are going for the least amount of gas possible. look at the new gas electric hybrid tahoe, that thing is a beast and fuel efficient at the same time.
May 7 2008 12:32PM
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skifree919
Posts: 5842 - Karma: 35
did not read whole thread, but how high will the price of oil have to rise until the government decides to fund more alternative fuel supplies? Like honestly? Don't bring global climate change as an issue into this because this is simply an issue of the US going broke or not while benefiting foreign countries. Fuck bush and cheny, they have too many damn ties with the oil industry to fund alternative fuels. Just fyi, profits of exxon mobil last year were 39 billion dollars
May 7 2008 12:37PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
what like ethonol?

yeah, that great plan by the government didnt really work out so good, did it?

the only way it will work is if profit driving company's can perfect the different technologies we have today, and run with them.

but let me assure you, government is not going to fix this.
May 7 2008 12:41PM
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skifree919
Posts: 5842 - Karma: 35
No, not like ethanol. Ethanol is a flawed alternative energy which really screwed everything up. The energy output of ethanol is basically lower than what we put in, and it has screwed up the agriculture industry because everybody is switching to corn because of subsidies. I am talking about wind (this is so easy to do), geothermal where applicable, and even more funding towards things like the hydrogen cell. For example, look at Denmark. The government applied a gas tax, but instead of the tax money going to some black hole, it is directly funded back to energy efficient and new energy technologies. As a result, Denmark is one of the most efficient energy users in the world.

This also involves perfecting current technologies, like energy efficient engines. More money needs to be put into this, and taken away from oil where marginal costs of obtaining oil will rise and rise and rise because the supply of easy to get oil is just about gone. In order to compensate for this, we are looking to harder and more expensive areas, like the north slope of alaska, the oil sands in alberta, and the chukchi sea off the northern coast of alaska, which is frozen a good amount of the year. Without change, we are screwed, because oil prices will not fall significantly in the future... ever.
May 7 2008 12:58PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
Electric cars are not appealing when gas is 1.20 a gallon. Electric cars run off of energy stored in batteries. Batteries are expensive complex and hard to maintain. Batteries generally last for only a couple of years but have an exponential decline in storage capacity. Even with the most advanced batteries an electric car moderately loaded will have a range of about 100 miles then you will have to recharge the batteries. Not like a gas powered car where you can fill up in seconds it takes hours to fully charge a battery.

Batteries are also very harmful to the environment and require giant mining operations as well as disposal.

Also they are not as powerful and decline in power as you drive.

That does not mean that some cars should not be electric. Intercity cars should be electric. Or run on some type of power grid.

There are also advances in air pressure powered cars where expensive batteries are not needed instead replaced by the potential energy of a high pressure tank.

Oil companies did not kill the electric car technology did. Why would you pay twice as much for a car that goes half as far and is four times as expensive to maintain?

Also people keep rehashing points that I have made before but did not take the time to read my posts...
May 7 2008 1:42PM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
i live 2 miles from a refinery and we still have high gas prices
May 7 2008 2:10PM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
could be done, my uncle has done some research and you could power the entire west coast with a relatively small piece of solar panel in a desert. the problem with that is we would have to put fragile reflectors in space that would be easy targets for terrorists and our other enemies.
May 7 2008 2:12PM
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Static
Posts: 8553 - Karma: 4,089
you have your electric car facts so backwards. the tesla roadster gets 220 miles per charge, sure it's 100k, but in two years, they're realeasing one for 70k with a back up gas engine, and planned for 2012 is a 30k model. Also they made a pretty major battery breakthrough a few months ago. Also there is virtually no maintence on electric cars.
May 7 2008 3:05PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
i like race gas :) it cost me something like 7 dollars a gallon now!
May 7 2008 4:24PM
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Mr.LemonPie
Posts: 4100 - Karma: 1,625
you would be suprised, my old shop teacher has a bike and a car, his bike runs off of french fry oil and wind power so he can now go 50 in it, (use to only be able to go 40 with the french fry oil) and his car is part electric, part gas, and part solar, he is getting like 110 miles to the gallon. I don't know how he made it but he is rediculously smart.
May 7 2008 4:31PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Ironically enough, the company I work for at school produced a compound that makes diesel more efficient, better burning, less harmful etc. Good technology for diesel engines and such.

Know who bought our patent for it? Shell.
May 7 2008 4:48PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
I was talking about electric cars vs gas powered cars when the technologies were competing and the so called conspircy of the oil companies.
May 7 2008 5:03PM
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brentseaton
Posts: 153 - Karma: 10

big deal... the us is the 45th cheapest country in the world to buy gas... i moved to europe from Canada 3 years ago and gas here is $9.00 a gallon... good for $135.00 per fill up....

bottom line... when gas prices increase 2.5x than what it is now, I'll start listening to your whining.

 

May 7 2008 5:09PM
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PhaedeD
Posts: 11498 - Karma: 327
speak the truth son.
May 7 2008 5:18PM
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GnarBurger
Posts: 3215 - Karma: 43
oil sucks honestly. im not embarrased to ride my bike every where i can. i excercise and save money at the same time. btw im 17
May 7 2008 7:32PM
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Dhane
Posts: 3866 - Karma: 1,722
yea, the amount of corn it takes to make 24 gallons of ethanol is enough food to feed a child for a whole year. ethanol is not the answer, its only go to screw us over in more ways than gas
May 7 2008 7:40PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
and how do you know that they will not take some of the advances you made, and implement them into their diesel?  


May 8 2008 7:39PM
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sowstochd
Posts: 1518 - Karma: 59
$126
May 9 2008 11:57AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
wow, where will it stop?!?!

does anyone know, when we will actually feel 126$ a barrel.  because that is just the futures market..
May 9 2008 12:06PM
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Static
Posts: 8553 - Karma: 4,089
hopefully this shit will clear up once we get a decent president in office
May 9 2008 3:34PM
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ski_ENDUB
Posts: 2535 - Karma: 86
it wont
May 9 2008 3:42PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
It doesn't quite work like that...
May 9 2008 3:43PM
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Alkyy
Posts: 2839 - Karma: 149
there are hundreds of ways to use the power of the sun to make every day energy, only problem is no one wants to do it,  Wind power on small scale can work to power your house instead of gas.  A full setup usually will run you around 20,000 i think, it sounds like a lot but how much does a nice new car cost?  Over 30 years (expecting that you build it in the house that you are going to live in for a long time its going to save you money.  Think how much you spend in propaine or natural gas to heat your home every year.  Not to mention the electric that you use to run your lights.  All of that added up over 30 years is going to be more than 20,000.

And with Nuclear power the problem with that is that we were introduced to it to fast.  When it was still in development people pushed it to be used.  things like 3 mile island happened and people are scared now.

If the governemnt would put half the money to research that they spend on keeping oil intrests going (war in Iraq) we would have a good system.  That wont happen though so dont get your hopes up.

last thing, the infrastructure (sp) in our country is fucked, Who really needs to drive a car 2 blocks i mean come on are we all really that fuckin fat now.  Cities like NY should have a much bigger FREE or VERY CHEAP public transportation system and ban cars straight up.  Instead of putting 1 million dollers into 1 mile or 2 lane road thought the mtns, thats 2 million dollers an average mile for highways like 89 through VT. why not spend probably half that and build train tracks?  It could deffanatly be safer and if you build bullet trains you could get there much faster without using anything but electricity (that we can get from neuclear power).


I know the grammer sucks but i hope that some of my points start people thinking about it, because im sure everyone on this site loves the env and the snow we are the first people that are effected by pollution, global warming, and high gas prices.  Basically if we find an altrernitive to gas we can save the planet and your wallet at the same time.  Im not positive on the number but im gunna guess that i spent close to 2,000 driving 40 miles to the mtn this season alone, I had people car pool some times but when id get up on an average of 4 days a week there were a bunch of times that i was all by my self.  I drive a forester so its not the best but by far not the worst car out there

Ok im done, i didnt read the full thread so someone might have said some of my points
May 9 2008 4:56PM
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