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9/11 discuss.

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Leo.
Posts: 508 - Karma: 17

There hasn't been a thread on this in a while and lately I've really been questioning whether 9/11 was an act of terror or really was planned as a part of some enormous scheme.  What are everyone's thoughts? Try to keep hating at a minimum.

Apr 7 2008 12:18AM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
k. i was going to watch that movie last night but i ran out of time. mabey i can squeeze it in this weekend.
Apr 9 2008 8:15PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
Listen. The FBI knew about the planned bombing a YEAR in advance. They made a plan in the pentagon to LET IT HAPPEN, and even guiding it for political reasons.

BTW Zeitgeist is for the most part true.


If you don't agree, you just dont know the facts. Thats all.
Apr 9 2008 8:28PM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
They might have known, and they had a plan to stop it, but someone botched it. They didn't PLAN it. The implications of both scenarios are very different.
Apr 9 2008 8:36PM
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Dustin.
Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704
Wow.  You embarass me.  Your argument is ridiculous and unsupported.  Maybe you know something we all don't because you have some sort of an "in" as a lifty or whatever.  Learned a lot from your hippy friends.  I hope your not American.
Apr 9 2008 8:50PM
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yellav
Posts: 10056 - Karma: 1,217
please, explain yourself.
Apr 9 2008 8:57PM
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Krush
Posts: 1312 - Karma: 12
.
Apr 9 2008 8:58PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
haha  congrats!
you've inspired me to start my copy of "an inconvenient book"    i will make sure to let everyone know my opinion when im done.  i just finished "under the banner of heaven" a very interesting read.  i would highly suggest it......  it was written by the same person that wrote "into the wild" (one of my favorites), and "into thin air".


i am fine, if you dont know what you believe about 9/11. its a free country! and i dont believe i have belittled your opinion on the subject(please correct me if i did) 


also my point about the "peer reviewed" part is, dont take one persons word as truth, EVER!  and if you do this, GREAT!      



"see, the problem is, you're assuming that reading "peer reviewed journals" means that i'm taking in one type of media." 

i will let my own words from my previous post speak for them self.

     "I would also challenge you to consume more types of information, than "peer reviewed political science books and journals."     no one is right 100% of the time, so wouldn't it be better to have multiple opinions on each subject?  that way you can choose between the two, and make a logical conclusion from there."
 

see i didnt assume, i challenged you. no assumption on my part. i never said you didnt, take in more than one form/(viewpoint) of media......  and if your political science books do this(present both sides to the argument) then this is great, and next year when i start college, i hope i get the privilege to study the same books you have.
Apr 9 2008 10:01PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
ya, totally, but the difference is I have the information, Ive seen the speakers, I've heard the testimonies from the people who KNOW. So I know what Im standing on. Brainwashed by an over exposure to information and facts ya.

DO you realize that arguements from the other side are just as unfounded, if not more so? Where is the Proof that Al- Queda flew some planes into the towers? EH? Whats that? SPeak up sonny? DO you know anyone who was on the planes?

Oh, but the FBI did, they let a bunch of KNOWN terrorists on to commercial jets? LOL, they wouldn't even make it on the plane. Funny thing is the manifest released contains none of the names of the guys the FBI said were on the plane. Then they were alive. They found a dudes passport in the rubble. cmon. not only is that next to impossible, The dude was alive back home.

Can you show me ANY proof that it was terrorists/ hey? Doesn't the CIA remote controlling an airplane sound more plausible? They can, I saw a nasa video of a remotely controlled commercial jet flying for 20 min.

Im only forming an opinion after I collected the facts, as best as humanly possible. I dont WANT the Secret Gov't to be the ones responsible for 911, but the evidence is a little overwhelming.


Mostly the evidence of History, and how it repeats itself.


golly gee, you guys will believe anything

oh ya, and some dude shot JFK cause he was Crazy. LOL ya right, just happened to get shot right after he REvealed the men behind the curtains.


Wake up and start connecting the fucking dots.

Paint by number assholes


Apr 9 2008 11:11PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Since when did "I'm not sure, maybe" become a disdained opinion? Theres plenty of unanswered and weakly investigated evidence in this question to lend 100% in either direction at this conjuncture. The world isnt black and white, its grey. You cannot believe that nobody has profited from the events instigated by 9/11, and money is the greatest motivator. Likewise, I have a hard time believing any rational person would deem the killing of innocent people justifiable.
Apr 9 2008 11:46PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
it takes a man to admit when he is wrong, i am a man, who is, man enough to do just that, i was WRONG when i used the word "Challenge"  i could have phrased it better, thankyou of the correction..  

if i  could  set  back the clocks of time i would have gone  about  my " challenge" like this, 

i would strongly recommend that no matter how diverse your media intake(forms of media) (opinions on a subject) there is always room for improvement, to better challenge your beliefs on any subject...    

and that goes both ways, for my side of the issue and your side. whatever the discussion might be. 



"by the way, you still haven't spoken to the fact that "i don't know" is an acceptable position. I've taken in fucking volumes of theory and case studies and I still couldn't tell you for sure because I don't have access to the knowledge that would allow me to give an answer. hence we have conspiracy theories and not indictments here. but then you knew that, because you're fucking pragmatic."

i would still like to know where i belittled your opinion that "you dont know"  



my view, opinion, belief  what ever the hell you want to call it, is,  terrorist  flew airplanes into buildings and killed innocent Americans.
that is  my take on the events of the day, call me a pawn, "fucking moron"  what ever, i really dont care anymore. 


Apr 10 2008 12:47AM
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MADr.
Posts: 2193 - Karma: 27
i think they were the towers of Babel. Holy fuck, am i a terrorist?
Apr 10 2008 3:53AM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Screw you pinko bastards. Clearly toast is the superior breakfast accompaniment. We don't need your leftist Euro-envy for such breakfast fixins’ like the scone or English muffin. Don't even get me started on bagels. We all know they were simply created as a backup system if toast were to ever fail in their patriotic duties. Toast never had anything coming. It's not our fault that our early morning confections are the envy of the entire world! They (probably someone from the Middle East or French Canadia) wanted to weaken our breakfast by maximizing overcooked bread that would leave millions of Americans vulnerable, sacred, and disappointed.
Apr 10 2008 12:45PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
Terrorism does exist, and terrorists do blow shit up, but its also the perfect scapegoat. Piggyback on terrorism, and you can blame ANYTHING on it.




Apr 10 2008 1:52PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Except that there is a distinguishable difference between finding a scapegoat and making a reasonable conclusion (not to mention terrorists actually claimed responsibility for it).

Can we please stop beating this dead horse? The carcass has decomposed beyond a point where there is even something to beat.
Apr 10 2008 2:04PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
What terrorist claimed resp?

Oh,. that osama video>? The one which is clearly not Osama? The dude in the vid is right handed, and osama is left, he is fatter, and is wearing a gold ring, which is against islamic law.


Osama don't break no Islamic law


A reasonable conclusion is the GOvernment and the people that own it are a bunch of fucking pricks who play games with human life.


Thats fucking reasonable.


Apr 10 2008 2:07PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
So you mean when the CIA made the fake Osama video, nobody was smart enough to say, "Hey, we better fact-check this, skipimp. on newschoolers.com might see it"? I find it hard to believe that this shadowy entity was behind an elaborate scheme to deceive the entire world and can't even manage to put together a believable video.


Apr 10 2008 3:40PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
On another note, I'm curious as to how you 9/11 truthers justify the blatant twisting and outright making up of facts to support your theories.

Major case in point: 9/11 truth supporters always point out that Building #7 fell at "freefall speed" (I think 6 seconds is the number they give) and show a video that appears to be #7 collapsing in 6s. In actuality, the video is cut short - you can find the full version showing the building starting to collapse a full 10 seconds before the part the 9/11 truth movement wants you to see. There's no way around that issue: the movement uses a shot from a convenient angle cut short to blatantly and deliberately mislead people.

Another point (though not directly related to 9/11): I was forced to sit through Alex Jones' fear monger propaganda piece entitled "Terrorstorm" (by two word review: shit storm, watch Spinal Tap if you don't get it). Jones talks about the 7/7 bombings in London and says that they were designed to help Blair's party win the upcoming elections. The case he presented was pretty convincing, so I suspected his facts were probably pulled from his ass and did some research; turns out the bombings happened months AFTER the election. Obviously the video was intended for an American audience unaware of the mind-boggling twisting of dates employed. I think this would be comparable to someone in England making a video that claimed the September 11 attacks were planned to help Bush win the October 2001 election - unbelievable bullshit.

Someone please explain this. And keep in mind these are only two examples, I could cite more but don't have time.
Apr 10 2008 3:52PM
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Benedetto.
Posts: 2526 - Karma: 64

even if the terrorist threatened the US before the attacks, there is no way they can take hundreds of threats seriously a day. and back then, the US wasn't as scared as we are now. the attacks came out of no where. for goodness sake, you guys complain when the school takes bomb threats seriously. always looking for a scapegoat

Apr 10 2008 3:55PM
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.Capn.
Posts: 1454 - Karma: 152
Can I see where you got this info from? Not calling you out or ne thing I just want to see it before I believe it, thats intersting.
Apr 10 2008 4:05PM
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BvK
Posts: 868 - Karma: 11
it doesnt matter... we handled it wrong, and thats what makes me sick
Apr 10 2008 5:06PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
I can explain it.

do you want me to though? Cause im pretty sure youve made up your mind.


7/7 was done because Bush and Blair are allies, and Bush needed someone to back his illegal war.

The freefall shit is whack, that shit doesnt mean a goddamn thing.

Dont pick apart little discrepencies, look at the big picture.

Building 7 - Even if I wanted to believe it fell down on its own, which isnt even the official story, I can't, cause it makes no effin sense.

If it "fell" down, it wouldnt fall as it did. When you hear the teseimony of people who were on the street, they are saying that they could hear a countdown over the radio.

So yes, the building was damaged, and needed to be brought down (maybe). Ok I'll bite. So they brought in a demo team, to safely bring it down.

Thing is, and heres the thing - It was the same day, a demo team cant be set up the same day.

I think the most conclusive proof of Fishy business in the trade centers is the molten metal found weeks later. The only thing that can melt tempered steel into molten metal is thermite, which was found at ground zero. Why was thermite found at ground zero? Why were there explosions from the basement before the planes hit? Where is the Billons of dollars in gold which was stored on site? - They only found 2 million worth. Theres a lot missing. Not to mention the van caravan found in the tunnels connecting Building 7 to the trade centers...

nothing from a plane hitting a building and the building collapsing can create temperatures hot enough to melt steel. Its fucking physics.

if you can answer these questions, I might be able to change what I believe, but these are some serious effin questins.

Also, the emergency scenario's on 7/7 being run at the exact time the bombings occured? wtf cmon gimme a break.


Apr 10 2008 5:19PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
First off, claiming something happened at a time MONTHS different than when it actually did is not a minor discrepancy. Butchering a video, lying about it, and posting it all over the internet in an attempt to give "scientific" credibility to a bullshit theory is not a minor discrepancy.

As for Building 7, I'd like to see where your information about a countdown comes from. Also, Larry Silverstein's "pull it" quote is not proof of a planned demolition. I find it far more believable that he was talking about pulling fire crews from the area (the "official" *gasp* story) than that the evil Jewish mastermind accidentally gave away the entire plot while speaking on TV ("pssst....Larry, you're not supposed to say it was a planned demolition" riiiight).

As for the billions of dollars in missing gold and the underground caravan, again, CITE IT. I think you may have mixed up a Clive Cussler novel with reality. Happens all the time, don't worry about it.

As for the thermite - and this pisses me off about as much as the Building 7 bullshit - it was found at Ground Zero weeks later because thermite is ALSO PRODUCED WHEN YOU CUT STEEL WITH A TORCH. You know, like they did when they cleaned up the site. It would be really suspicious if there wasn't any thermite found - in that case, I would have to ask, "How the hell did they cut all that steel up and move it without there being any thermite produced?"

And before anyone even brings up "Prof" Steven Jones, please...SPARE US...DEAR GOD SPARE US! The man is an idiot and an embarrassment to physics faculty everywhere. He was fired from BYU for repeatedly publishing shoddy, poorly-supported work well outside of his area of expertise. In his famous analysis of the WTC collapse, he didn't even do a conservation of moment calculation. I will readily admit that I am no physics expert, but even I could tell you that a problem like that means NOTHING without calculating conservation of momentum.
Apr 10 2008 6:36PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Here is a tip: Using an even more outlandish claim to support and already outlandish claim does not make it sound any more logical or believable.

And clearly your definition of what constitutes as "reasonable" varies greatly from everybody else. Look, I'm not one of the teenagers that trawls around here after their high school civics class gets out. I need an actual argument supported by real evidence (see: actual research). Not this garbage that gets dug up from some soft science pseudo-intellectual that has his own Google-able site.

As for the theory of the said bin Laden video being a forgery, do you have any source that could be considered remotely credible? Forgive me if my doubts are of the highest sincerely.

It really is amazing that no matter how many times this utter horseshit is brushed aside (see the FTP threads from two years ago) people still ignore it and keep squawking about this nonsense. There is far more evidence to support the current (and commonly accepted) idea of the cause, motives, and effects of 9/11 than all the conspiracy bullshit you could find off of Google. This anti-establishment wet dream is really getting tiresome. Move on.
Apr 10 2008 6:50PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
turn on the history channel right now!     

they are addressing  most of the conspiracy theory's.
Apr 13 2008 5:51PM
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Benedetto.
Posts: 2526 - Karma: 64
just tuned in
Apr 13 2008 6:44PM
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Benedetto.
Posts: 2526 - Karma: 64

SO FUCKED UP how the loose change people went to the memorial site to preach that bullshit. i know we have freedom of speech but wow. i cant believe that people would believe such bullshit. i guess its different because it was a litle closer to home for me with my uncles being in the fdny and another in nypd but wow. cant believe some fucking people in this world and on this website

Apr 13 2008 6:49PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i know!  show a little respect!


this has been 2 of the best hours in front of the TV i have spent in a while.   

the part about building 7 was very very well done IMO. 

those planes brought down the buildings!  not the government!
Apr 13 2008 6:59PM
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Benedetto.
Posts: 2526 - Karma: 64
sarcasism? i hope not...?
Apr 13 2008 7:05PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
no,  no sarcasm in my post.   i think there is a line, and those people, doing what they did, while people were mourning the loss of life. took "free speech" to a new disgusting low in my book.
Apr 13 2008 7:09PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
exactly!    

i  am fine if you dont believe(notice i didnt say it was fact:) what i believe but there needs to be some level of respect.    and by  going about their little "crusade  for the truth", in such a bad way, they are not accomplishing anything good.


Apr 13 2008 7:39PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
quinny

you mean we're going to have a conversation? were gonna get specific? you want me to get serious don't cha.
its a lot to ask


im on acid at sun peaks right now (just got home smart guys)
ive been to the abyss and back.

I did talk with the aliens, THey are here, have been ever since they helped us build the pyramids (whats above is below ooo ooo) and mated with our species, y'knoe, which created the alien blood lines which Skull and Bones dudes are all about. Wel ya, they move the pyramids by reversing their magnetic poles, duh, who didnt know that? oh ya also, aliens communicate in "non-traditional' forms. they communicate biologically using fungi spores which are preserved for milennia on comets as they travel. There are different spores for different folks. well, we know most of the strains of fungi (which are really alien communication, did I mention that?) will kill us, theres only a few linked to our genetic code. so when we eat mushrooms, we actually commune with aliens. With me? ok, let's continue, so while the alienz see, they were building the shit in the east, the west side was busy on dey own shit, like check the mayans, incas, south and central america. their alien shit was tight too! so basicamuthafuckingly the rockefellers are played out, alzheimer ridden mofo, he cant tie his won shoes right now that old fool, fuck that guy anyway, he aint no alien , he just a wannabe, he cant be in their club, so he makes his own and then meets up with all sorts of people, jews, russians, americans of course , and they try to kill chavez cause hes a goof who believes in Independence and Freedom (from terror), 2 things the US gov't is taking away from it's citizens in order to gain more support for this bullshit war which is a goddamn shitshow, Winter SOilder Democracy Now! you see that shit, you know what im talkin bout if you do. That aint no game, thats cold blooded murder of families and children, by guys like me and you. cought up in the fucking lie, oil for the gears of the machine. things haventchanged since the wall.. Floyd btw... still with me? \

why.

why are you reading my inane babble?


Because if it was inane babble you wouldnt read it.



Apr 14 2008 5:54AM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Actually I didn't read the inane babble. I quit reading at around "im on acid at sun peaks right now" and skipped down to the bottom.
Apr 14 2008 9:59AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
It's somehow appropriate that this thread ends in an acid trip.
Apr 14 2008 11:36AM
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Gharf
Posts: 1390 - Karma: 983



some people said there were no extermniation camp in world war II.

do YOU believe it ? i hope not.

it s not because some people with some crappy logic and shitty proof tell you that there has been no 4th plane that you have to believe it.

cmon guys, have a little respect for the victims...



this reminds me of the "no one has ever been on the moon" theory.

funny that any one with little knowledge can contradict any of the "proofs" that some people will give about how no one has been on the moon.


for the plot theory i dont know, but for those who are realy interested in some REAL geography and international politics, go look for WILLIAM KAREL, he is an historian and make some intersting theories.

he made a movie a few years ago. in french it was "the world in bush s mind " or something like that.

realy intersting, documented with interviews from both sides. no smoky theories, just facts.

go watch it if you want to know more about the subject.


cya guys.
Apr 14 2008 3:22PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
aw quinny i wrote that just for you
Apr 14 2008 3:33PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
it did end, im good to go today, my seratonin is a little drained, but ill just watch some euro porn, thatll help
Apr 14 2008 3:35PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Maybe I'll give it another go after I trip acid.
Apr 14 2008 3:54PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
When reverence stops relevant and important questions from being answered, yes. Not in my world.

Again, there are a lot of unanswered questions from those events, and the explanations have been shitty. I dont care what the answer is, but I'd just like a proper investigation, which still has not been conducted.
Apr 14 2008 6:50PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
When people like skipimp and icepointa say things like this, I pass it off as the acid-induced babblings of paranoid schizophrenics. But I'm really interested in what questions intelligent people like you and drew think are unanswered. Seriously, what explanations do you think are shitty?

And as far as no "proper investigation" goes, I think the NIST investigation was pretty proper. 9/11 truthers seems to be completely unfamiliar with this report and assume the 9/11 Commission report is the only one that's been done.


Apr 14 2008 7:29PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Funding of the operation is a big one. We have the hijackers names (some questions still about validity, never heard a counter for the fact that a few on the FBI list are still alive), but not the connection to Osama, and no idea where the money came from.

The 9/11 commission report was also a complete crock of shit when it came to the details of the buildings collapse, especially WTC 7. I dont doubt at all that much of what made it into that report was in order to cover the current administrations oversight. I want to know why and who was responsible for hearing reports of an attack and did nothing. I want them to be fired.
Apr 14 2008 8:44PM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
WTC 7 had a fire going on for hours that was not fought, that weakened the steel that had since lost its fire insulation enough to cause it to fold upon itself, the momentum and force of which took it down
Apr 14 2008 8:48PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
I totally would believe that, but theres been no official report stating such. I'm interested to see what they're going to conclude in the simulations and such at some institute investigating this.
Apr 14 2008 9:04PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
the history channel did a great show on 911 conspiracies and fact, on sunday afternoon.  they did a great objective job, presenting both the conspiricy theory's and the other side.

i too had some questions on how building 7 came down, this program did a great job of explaining it.
they had structural  engineers on, and the way they explaned it was, (im paraphrasing here)   that all it took for 7 to collapse was 2 major support towers inside, to be heated to the point they became weak, and from there it was a domino effect.   

it seriously destroyed my doubts on the matter.
Apr 14 2008 10:00PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

- bottom of the page

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_Approach_Summary12Dec06.pdf

- a little more detail on the procedure

NIST's Building 7 report isn't complete yet, but there's already a pretty impressive (and "official") body of evidence there.
Apr 14 2008 10:49PM
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ThaLorax
Posts: 21063 - Karma: 8,389
Ummmm, what? So because someone is questioning of what they hear and doesn't blindly accept the the governments story they are automatically "acid-induced babblings of paranoid schizophrenics"?  Would that make John Lennon, Martin Luther King, Ghandi or any other human who has stood up against what they believed (the key there is "what they believe") to be wrong doings a "paranoid schizophrenic" as well?


No offense to drew or rowen. I like hearing what you two have to say.
Apr 15 2008 12:45AM
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Quinn
Posts: 1428 - Karma: 16
i really can not, in any way, comprehend how these fucking conspiracy theories have rallied ANY support in this country. to sum it up, it's really pitiful.


Apr 15 2008 12:52AM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
I see, you think youre better than schitzophrenics on acid. I have more coherent comnversations with them than I do with intolerant judgemental pricks like yourself, who obviously doesn't know about the world of drugs.


Apr 15 2008 1:17AM
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yellav
Posts: 10056 - Karma: 1,217
literally was just thinking that. everyone who is so appalled that anyone would ever question motives of their government shut off your television open a fucking history book.

sinking of the lusitania: WW1
pearl harbor: WW2
gulf of tonkin: vietnam

all US allowed or even set up events to draw us into war. there are people with higher motives in this world and to them war=money. open your brain for a milisecond and look at the world around you. the general population of the united states scares me.
Apr 15 2008 1:22PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Yeah, from what I've heard  the official NIST's report is going to close the books, which will do fine for me. The way I see it, no harm in being critical of the government.
Apr 15 2008 1:39PM
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Yauch
Posts: 1685 - Karma: 62
10 karma
Apr 15 2008 4:43PM
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