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Easter question...

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SteezePatrol
Posts: 10281 - Karma: 36

warning; religiously related thread.

so i was watching the news the other day and some guy was on talking about different people's versions of heaven, if heaven exists, and a bunch of heaven related stuff because he apparently wrote a book about it (let's not go there).

annnyways they started talking about easter coming up, the rising of Christ, and how Jesus was crucified/sacrificed for man's sins so that we would have a chance at getting into heaven or something.

I'm not really understanding this. To whom was he sacrificed to? And why? I don't think the theory is that the people killing him thought, "This is the son of God, we have to kill him so we can go to heaven," so how did we get this notion that that was the reason he was killed? I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything here, but I'm really not following this theory. And if God put him on earth to be killed so that then he would let people into heaven...wtf?

Where did all of this shit come from? I know it's kind of like asking where all the rules and stories from the bible came from, but there's got to be some more explanation...?

Mar 23 2008 5:14PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
Moses died long before Jesus came...that was the animal sacrifice I was referring to in my original post. Once Jesus came there is no more need for animal sacrifices.
Mar 23 2008 9:31PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19

What is the point in believing an old story? Doesn't having blind faith just make you gullible and easily taken advantage of? Why can't I be a rational thinking person, love everyone, and still be in God's favor? If God cared so much he would tell us himself instead of 3rd hand accounts that are 2,000 years old. These Christian beliefs, like any other religion, are really pointless when you get down to it.

Mar 23 2008 9:33PM
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2+2=5
Posts: 3676 - Karma: 18
you should really take this movie with a grain of salt. its so hyprocitical (if even thats a word), i think the creators did it on purpose just to laugh at people who believe in it. they talk about how the media propoganda scares people and makes people believe anything. when they actually do the same thing by making u believe that the government is out there to implant a chip into your body to control your life, without any actual proof. all that religion shit they give you doesnt even check out.

http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

even read this site. it breaks it down word for word to how much bullshit is actually put into this video.

http://www.zeitgeistresponse.info/
Mar 23 2008 9:33PM
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SteezePatrol
Posts: 10281 - Karma: 36

ah, thanks for the correction.

but why did everyone believe Moses then?
and there were apparently human sacrifices aswell

1. God told Moses to sacrifice the first born of humans and animals to him.

1The Lord said to Moses:
2Consecrate to me all the firstborn; whatever is the first to open the womb among the Israelites, of human beings and animals, is mine. (Gen. 13:1-2)

Mar 23 2008 9:35PM
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2+2=5
Posts: 3676 - Karma: 18
i dont really know what i believe in. but really who cares? life is too short to figure all that shit out yourself. and if going to church makes you happy, then go ahead. people go to church every sunday to give thanks for everything they have around them. they go to church because it makes them feel good, and when they confess their sins, they feel like they are clean and feel much happier.

church isnt about jesus as much as it is about just being happy and thankful. think of it like thanksgiving every sunday. but some people do really push the limits. and i think if going to church makes you sad, or that you are mad or sad because you have to go to church. you shouldnt be going at all.
Mar 23 2008 9:39PM
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TeamJones
Posts: 629 - Karma: 12
book of exodus, not genesis
/nitpick
Mar 23 2008 9:49PM
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Itsbackfliptime
Posts: 18901 - Karma: 75
So are you angry that people believe in something that might not be true? Christianity gives you a pretty good outline on how to live your life. If you don't agree with it you don't have to follow it. Who/what decides whether or not your deeds are good or bad? Religion provides a set of rules that is generally pretty good when it comes to deciding right and wrong.
Mar 23 2008 9:49PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
The fact that you have sinned keeps you from being in God's favor, simple as that.
I'm not saying you're an evil man or anything like that, but unless you are PERFECT in every way from the moment you enter the world until the moment you die, you cant' be in God's presence because of your sin. I can't either, I'm not placing myself above anyone else, we are all sinners and all on equal footing with God, no sin is any greater or any less than another. But because of the fact that Jesus blood has covered my sin and made teh debt good, I'm seen as perfect by the father.
Mar 23 2008 9:58PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
The word consecrate doesn't mean kill, or sacrifice. It means 'dedicated to a sacred purpose'...God didn't want human sacrifices, and you won't find any such thing in the Bible, Human life is regarded higher than any other life in on earth in the BIble because of the fact the Humans are made in God's own image. What he was saying is that he wanted the firstborn sons to be his...dedicated to him to be high priests, prophets, leaders, teachers, and so on.
Mar 23 2008 10:02PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19
The reason I don't like people believing wild stories that have no basis in reality is because they can be used to launch things like crusades and witch hunts.

I don't like the fact that people sacrifice their will and power here on earth and are so lazy because they think God will take care of everything and that things will be better when they go to heaven anyways, because they are "saved". Its taking responsibility away from humans and giving it to what might as well be a figment of our imagination. It makes people feel better about being slaves or quasi-slaves and wasting their lives working for someone else because they think they will spend an eternity in heaven where they can actually do what they wish they were doing on earth.

Live, love, share, play, create! DON"T WORRY ABOUT RELIGIONS! They divide us and blind us to our true nature.

John lennon said it best, and thats why he had to be assasinated I guess.



Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Mar 23 2008 10:05PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19
So people that accept hearsay as fact are given Jesus's grace and other people aren't? What the hell does that have to do with life? Don't you see how its irrelavent?
Mar 23 2008 10:11PM
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SteezePatrol
Posts: 10281 - Karma: 36
ah, thanks for the correction again.

but once again, why did everyone believe Moses in the first place?
Mar 23 2008 10:14PM
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illy
Posts: 173 - Karma: 10
go to church
Mar 23 2008 10:21PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19

thats the question

Why should you believe what some person said so long ago, and why would your 'salvation' depend on it? Why does it matter at all?

Most people learn about the Santa Claus myth quickly, because they have to go buy the presents themselves when they grow up, but the religious myth stays with you until you're dead if you're naive enough.

Mar 23 2008 10:23PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
I think you're only in here to start a fight and voice your distaste for my beliefs.
I don't believe hearsay, I believe a historical book, and I believe in the God that wrote it. If you don't that's fine, you don't have to, that's the beauty of my God, and the fact that he gave you free will. But you haven't seen what I have seen, things that science and doctors fail to explain. Things like one of my best friends Mom being healed instantly of cancer. Things like the Holy spirit falling and having a whole room be so changed in an instant that everyone there is speaking a language they don't know. Things like another kid I know getting healed instantly of epilepsy...that isn't hearsay, I know them personally. I've seen his power and I know what he's done in my life and nothing you can say will change that, and I won't ever go back to the way I was before I had him. There will be things you don't understand, because they are out of your scope as a human (and if you think the human race is the be-all, end-all of understanding in our universe...you're sourly mistaken), but that's where faith comes in.
You've never seen the wind. I dont have to see God to see the effects of God and his touch in peoples lives, including my own. Believe or don't, it's your choice for now, but you'll keep looking in the wrong place for answers if you don't. And one day, you will bow your knee and confess, everything will, it's just a matter of which side you're on when it happens.
Mar 23 2008 10:29PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19
So you choose to attribute things you don't understand to an all powerful God. You're not the first. People that didn't understand the sun and seasons attributed them to an all powerful God, but more than more of that God's deeds we learn is Nature. You don't understand how the human body functions so its ability to heal itself astounds you. Physical bodies are amazing, our minds are amazing, and you do them a disservice by claiming a miracle when its just doing what its designed to do. Life organizes itself into higher and ever more complex systems. Our cells have consciousness, our minds have consciousness, to think that our Earth doesn't have consciousness is a stretch, to think the universe does not have consciousness is naive. I believe in a higher power of some sort, but I don't believe it reveals itself by word of mouth and books.

By the way, another reason I dislike religion is its ability to sexually repress people, convince them to kill themselves to hurt other people so that they can have a buch of virgin pussy in heaven.
Mar 23 2008 10:40PM
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mr_grom
Posts: 708 - Karma: 51
excuse me if i am mistaken, but this is a very odd thread to have such a long conversation on.
Mar 23 2008 10:45PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
You won't find any such doctrine in Christianity.
And I'm not claiming the body isn't amazing, it had an amazing designer.
What I am telling you is that until you yourself have been in the presence of God's power, these will sound like just stories to you. But I've seen it, I've felt it...I've been touched and healed by it. Sure, people can recover from cancer with treatments and such...but how many of those are you aware of that take place in a church service where the Holy Spirit is moving and are instant? How about epilepsy? Do you know of a cure for that?
You're speaking out against a lot of things you've never encountered or been around and therefore have no experience with. I'm not qualified to lead an expedition through the congo because I've never been there, never had any experience there. And neither are you in any way an authority on spiritual subjects.

Mar 23 2008 10:50PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19
People have been arguing about this ever since man could think abstractly. It really became a hot topic of debate when an Eyptian claimed that HE HIMSELF was God. Later some people ran around killing other people in the name of the SON OF GOD, and giving treasure to GOD's representative on Earth (Pope). You can't reason with them because they are insane and when directly confronted fall back on blind and illogical faith. So yes, you're right argueing with them is essentially hopeless but every now and then one of them wakes the fuck up and sees the world around them for what it is and what they've been missing out on.
Mar 23 2008 10:51PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19
This is one of the most arrogant statements I've ever heard. You think that because I haven't been to your fundamentalist christian church that I haven't had any spiritual experiences? What does having a spiritual experience have to do with believing Jesus died for our sins and that the bible is true anyways?

People have spiritual experiences and believe all kinds of crazy shit that you wouldn't agree with, it just shows that they don't understand what their experiencing and you prbably don't either. You have no idea how your brain works. Have you even tried mushrooms before to experience it in an altered state?

Healings by televangelist preachers have always been shown to be scams. Most of the time systems come back, having left only temporarily because of psychological imbalance, and the ones that are "cured" permanently are in no greater numbers than people that recover without a faith healer.
Mar 23 2008 10:59PM
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salomon097
Posts: 1345 - Karma: 301
moses was around before Jesus was so at the time when moses made these sacrifices, Jesus hadn't yet walked on earth.
Mar 23 2008 11:09PM
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SteezePatrol
Posts: 10281 - Karma: 36
yes that question was already answered mr. i-don't-read-the-whole-thread
Mar 23 2008 11:23PM
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salomon097
Posts: 1345 - Karma: 301
ehhh i didnt realize there were two pages. then after i posted i was like ahhh shit
Mar 23 2008 11:25PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
Again you speak out of turn.
I've done all sorts of drugs, fried my brain on pills, tripped out, etc.
And I've here to tell you after doing those things and having those experiences, it's nothin compared to God's power...it just reminds me that all the world has are cheap imitations of what God has. You're speaking from a single side of this argument, and don't have the experience to see both sides. I've been involved with eastern philosophy, meditation, blah, blah, blah....and again, I'll say that there is nothing but cheap imitations of what God really has.
I'm not talking about tele-evangelists, which you have not 'proved' are a hoax, because to do that you'd have to prove it for each individual one.
I'm talking I was IN THE SERVICE...I was there, I know what happened.
And of course I'm not saying you've never had a spiritual experience, God isn't the only spirit out there, so you could've had a visit or experience from who knows what spirit... I'm saying you aren't qualified to make assumptions or to judge what I have seen and what I felt and what I have experienced as false.
Mar 23 2008 11:26PM
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2+2=5
Posts: 3676 - Karma: 18
see you're one of the reasons why people do this whole argument. you make it seem like everyone who doesnt participate in your huge ass 1000 people assemblies and talk jibberish, are  of lesser power than you.
Mar 23 2008 11:29PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
Lesser power? I'm flesh and blood and bones like you are.
Mar 23 2008 11:46PM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19
yes, but you're saved, and I'm possessed by demons...

I really hope you're never in a position where you need to make important decisions that affect other people.
Mar 23 2008 11:49PM
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Love_Wins.
Posts: 5536 - Karma: -1
I never said you were possessed by demons at all...that's a cute way to misrepresent my side though, very mature and discerning of you. Bravo.
Mar 23 2008 11:53PM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
I have read this entire thread and as a practicing catholic i have to tell you that you need to talk to somebody that has dealt with this matter (priest, pastor..., like everybody else has said). This argument you are posing will never be resolved on NS, it is too great of a subject. i appreciate you interest in the matter but you are only going start more arguments.

I was raised as a catholic and to practice Jesus' word. i went to a catholic school for 8 years of my life and it honestly takes way more than that to truly understand my faith, like any other religion. unless you truly believe in my faith, and accept Jesus Christ as your true savior and lord you will never understand and you can make all the arguments you want, thats why God gave man Free will.

If you truly care about this issue you will seek educated help. otherwise i would strongly suggest this thread be stopped.

and not once did Love-Wins say anything related to a "televangelist."

sorry for ragging on you and im not trying to pick a fight either.
Mar 23 2008 11:54PM
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CKpolicy
Posts: 2587 - Karma: 2,463
ya i kno, its hard to decide what to leave out when trying to shorten something with soooo much info connected to it, just like how pilot gave the poeple the choice between crucifying Jesus or Barabas, a known murderer, and the people still chose jesus. the bottom line is jesus chose to die, and thats why its important, he chose to die in place of us.
Mar 24 2008 12:15AM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19
Someone with financial incentive? They do tend to be more persuasive.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate

As a Catholic that quote should strike close to home.

Mar 24 2008 12:37AM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
1st. please do not lump the entire "catholic religion" into one quote and yes, SOME good people have done evil things for money not ALL (as that quote implies).

2nd. I very highly doubt that any local priest or preacher that you would go to for advice makes any kind of "financial incentive." They preach because they are spreading the word of GOD. All of my priests live in the church (or a nearby religious building in a small apartment)

3rd. My point, i doubt seeking any local information about any religion will have a "financial incentive response" attached to it.


Mar 24 2008 1:14AM
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IcePointa
Posts: 1879 - Karma: 19

I was lumping ALL religions into one quote. The Catholic Church is a great example though, leading to great times like the Crusades, Inquisition, and the Genocide of Indiginous Americans.

Almost all congregation leaders benefit financially by having a larger congregation, so yes, there is financial incentive to converting people who will then tithe you and your superiors a percentage of their income.

Mar 24 2008 1:19AM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
oh, thanks for the clarification, my bad.

and i guess i see where you are coming from with the "almost all congregation leaders benefit financially by having a larger congregation" part. I mean they are a business and need to keep the church financially stable to continue growth. (being funny here) its not like they can get substadized by the government or anything for money, haha
Mar 24 2008 1:30AM
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John.
Posts: 1327 - Karma: 11
That quote is a huge generalization. I can see where you are coming from, and yes, there have been horrible atrocities committed in the name of all religions, including Christianity. (Like the Inquisition, Crusades, and suicide bombers more in the case of Islam.)

But if you look at the fundamental message of Christianity, you will see that it is the inherently flawed humans who have been the fuck-ups, not the idea of religion. Jesus preached "Love your neighbor" and that EVERY human life is infinitely precious. Many of the cases of people using religion to justify horrible deeds are usually driven by greedy, power-hungry people who twisted the real message of religion to accomplish their own sinful means.

That quote also disregards all the good the church does in today's world. Look up stuff like Catholic Relief Services, Jesuit universities, Catholic Worker Movement, and liberation theology. Read "What Jesus Meant" by Gary Wills. I bet you won't be so critical afterwards...
Mar 24 2008 2:12AM
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=Worf=
Posts: 2468 - Karma: 25
He had alot to say. He had alot of nothing to say. We'll miss him. So long. We wish you well. You told us how you weren't afraid to die. Well then, so long. Don't cry. Or feel too down. Not all martyrs see divinity. But at least you tried. Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud. We'll miss him. Ranting and pointing his finger at everything but his heart. We'll miss him. No way to recall what it was that you had said to me, Like I care at all. So loud. You sure could yell. You took a stand on every little thing and so loud. Standing above the crowd, he had a voice so strong and loud and I swallowed his façade cuz I'm so eager to identify with someone above the ground, someone who seemed to feel the same, someone prepared to lead the way, with someone who would die for me. Will you? Will you now? Would you die for me? Don't you fuckin' lie. Don't you step out of line. Don't you fuckin lie. You've claimed all this time that you would die for me. Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy? You had alot to say. You had alot of nothing to say. Come down. Get off your fuckin cross. We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr. To ascend you must die. You must be crucified for our sins and our lies. Goodbye...

-MJK
Mar 24 2008 11:04AM
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