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How the hell is mccain supposed to lower gov spending if he stays in iraq

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Yauch
Posts: 1685 - Karma: 62
somebody posted that mccains spending is going to be so low, but how can this happen if he wants to stay in iraq
Feb 22 2008 11:33AM
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coolhandluke
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 153
thats the problems with these pesky greedy humans.

and also the problem with government control.  no control whatsoever and yes corporations would run like the plague.  but tons of government control always manages to screw things up the other way.

think about it: in any public sector job, you always get paid no matter how shitty of a job you did.  you can be the laziest and most hapless government employee ever and you'll still get your 40 hours come Friday afternoon.
Feb 23 2008 7:26PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Speaking as a government employee at Seattles VA Hospital, I totally agree. At the hospital I'm employed at, the ridiculous numbers of supervisors, loopholes and runarounds really bogs down the system and wastes an incredible amount of money. Make no mistake, by advocating for governmental control, I'm not proposing this.

What we need to to revamp the system that exists. It was fucked from its inception due to it not having these easy and available coverage plans, which turned people off public institutions and gave money to private ones. Insurance companies and hospitals got into a price battle, and here we are. What we need is a new system that cuts out the decrepit and ancient artifacts that exist in the public system now. Its going to cut some jobs, but its going to save our country money in the long run and give people better healthcare. Letting private and public duke it out as they are now is only going to worsen things. What you need is a solid governmental system with cheap, affordable coverage that people can choose to participate in or not. Let there be privately owned hospitals, sure. But with a revamped system, I'll bet the public hospitals and plans will most always be cheaper and be able to give everyone in this country some sort of care if they get sick.
Feb 23 2008 7:38PM
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DANETRON
Posts: 6671 - Karma: 137
Actually It is the banks fault. They want to give out the loans they know people will default on so they can repo it and make some money. they knew what was up and fully took advantage of innocent people who were dreamin
Feb 23 2008 7:49PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
yeah helping our border countries would be the next best thing, I agree with that
Feb 23 2008 7:49PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
first off i assume you have never had a close friend die of cancer...

and secondly the German phrase i used was referring to WW2, our freedom beat the Nazis!
Feb 23 2008 8:19PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i wasnt trying to change the subject, i was simply pointing out some of the things this free economy has done..


"For the buisnesses that stay at home and support their people, they face no breaks, and much lower profits than the ones that pack up and move their factories to china."

hey your right! ^ we need to lower taxes, to make it more enticing for businesses to stay in America, because they are taxed to death here.. (dont give me "stop putting words in my mouth" BS im simply providing my solution to the problem you typed)



"Capitalism also puts Most of the money into the fewest people, with little help for the others."


care to think about this statement? my post that you quoted, displays information on how capitalism had donated more money than anyone else in the whole world.. hence "help for others"
Feb 23 2008 8:29PM
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dman1260
Posts: 899 - Karma: 13
Some of them aren't....... most are. 
Feb 23 2008 8:38PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
truth right here!

although i would have said "some are some arnt"
Feb 23 2008 8:41PM
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jibsworth
Posts: 1554 - Karma: 12
have you read the gomery rpt?

I just think I should have a choice how my tax dollars are spent, and there should be some more government accountability. Free markets works so well thanks to sarbanes oxley and the ablity to allocate my money to who ever is doing the best job with service X.
Feb 24 2008 10:53AM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
i was actually talking about citizens, and quoting random statistics isnt a solution.
Feb 24 2008 11:00AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i didnt quote a single "random statistic" in my post that you quoted...

could you better define you rebuttal to my post, thanks..
Feb 24 2008 12:50PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
want to provide an objective source for those numbers?


want to compare your numbers (if you find them) to the number America spends on "Aid" packages around the world..

Feb 24 2008 4:57PM
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BeerGoggles
Posts: 712 - Karma: 11
BAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHA.

Really, stop.
Feb 24 2008 5:11PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
ok you've lost me, those numbers are for the military as a whole?

if they are, are you saying that all the millitray is doing is advancing big business making money, implying that the military does no good?

please clarify your numbers, then i will be able to properly respond with relevant numbers to my argument..
Feb 24 2008 5:31PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
I think he's showing that it takes a lot of money to run our military, and what we pay in aid is piddles compared to it. In essence, we cause more damage than we fix.

And I disagree with your numbers on what we spend on aid. Giving money to Israel to advance their defense budget should not be considered aid.
Feb 24 2008 6:03PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
where did i say anything about Israel? if this post is directed at me?

also my numbers were from private Americans, not the government. and i think its a pretty big number..
Feb 24 2008 6:17PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
"Aid" is a pretty all inclusive term, thats all. Lots of our "aid" goes to supporting some bad shit, both public and private financing.
Feb 24 2008 6:23PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
can you find numbers that pertained to your original argument?

"capitalism kills" this does hold truth, in the fact that the US government kills people...... but can anyone remind me how many people stalin killed, hitler, or any tyrant...

as you said, "i life a very comfortable life", so do i..
and if this is such an important issue to you, i hope that you spend money donating to charity and spend time volunteering, talk is cheap..

if my debates offended you personally (i still think your wrong) in any way i am truly sorry, i debate the issues, and do my best not to demean anyone's point of view..

and i can truly say i respect your opinion, it seems that you have put a great deal of work into formulating it, and i respect that..
Feb 24 2008 6:44PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i respect very much that you volunteer, speaking from someone who volunteers too, it is very very rewarding..

"i'm of the mentality that we should give back to the system that puts us at the top." i understand what you meant overall,(dont agree) but this statement could be construed to seem that you like capitalism ..


also think about how your life would be if there was no motivation to work, and every thing was given to you by the government, i dont like that prospect..

there are many ways to define "success" and i am a big believer that anything is possible through hard work.


"100+ years of american economic imperialism on my side."
we do have an advantage being born in America, we owe this to the people who built this country into a great nation..
but that doesnt mean if you were born into poverty (or a different country) you cant rise to the top, or where ever you want to.. just look at sam walton(i know everyone hates walmart)
Feb 24 2008 8:02PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
*bad example in walmart* my bad..

but really there are so many people out there who have started with nothing and achieved many different levels of "success"
Feb 24 2008 8:08PM
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VT_FLO
Posts: 3806 - Karma: 147
i want somebody to look up all the BS countries governments i said. I really dont know if shits shit hahaha.

suprised nobody caught on, shows how educated everybody is
Feb 24 2008 8:13PM
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.Capn.
Posts: 1454 - Karma: 152
Its not like anyoone realy NEEDS an education...
Feb 24 2008 10:52PM
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Parkboy
Posts: 2303 - Karma: 32
no. it can sure open up a hell of a lot of options though
Feb 24 2008 11:16PM
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jimmychung
Posts: 6857 - Karma: 25
this asshole needs to make up his mind:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/25/iraq.mccain/index.html
Feb 26 2008 9:37AM
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bermbuster49
Posts: 7445 - Karma: 90
why dont the 40 millionin poverty or whatever get jobs there then?  they need to find a living other than off of my pocket because i need to support myself too.
Feb 26 2008 9:57AM
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coolhandluke
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 153
why?  its the same end result: do nothing worthwhile and still get paycheck from the government.
Feb 26 2008 10:05AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
Click for larger image



you do pay for government jobs, through taxes, so if there are more government jobs, guess what? your taxes go up, up, up..
Feb 26 2008 10:14AM
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coolhandluke
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 153
from my most recent paystub.......before I even get to spend anything

Social Security took 6.2%
Medicare took 1.4%
Federal Income Tax withholding took 13.1%
L&I took 0.2%

thats 20.9% already gone....and come April i get heavily taxed again....oh yeah and a couple grand for property tax because state and local governments want their cut too.

i'm not gonna see a single penny returned on that 6.2% social security withdraw.  USA Today recently reported that $979 billion was spent on supporting senior citizens in 2007.  Old people need to start dying faster.  And anyone under 30 should be exempted from paying that shit because face it, its not gonna be there for us. 

we already get taxed out the ass, we don't need huge tax increases.  the government needs to stop being so damn wasteful.  but how does that happen?  it's impossible to audit the entire federal government.  but seriously its the most inefficient thing ever sometimes.  ron paul's 2001 proposal of cutting the 16th amendment and federal income tax is pretty revolutionary: cut off the funding and watch the useless programs get wacked.

does anyone know the combined hourly pay for when congress is in session?


Feb 26 2008 10:49AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
where are your state income taxes, thats a fair chunk too..
but in the end your just some greedy capitalist bastard, who doesnt care about anyone but yourself.. {end heavy heavy sarcasm}

another thing, if there are so many well of celebrity's and business people, who want higher taxes, why dont they write out an extra check to the government?

im not against all taxes, we need them, but some people are getting taxed to death!
Feb 26 2008 11:07AM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
I assume you've never had a close friend die of starvation, or an easily treatable disease that could have been resolved with a few dollars worth of basic medication.


Cancer sucks, I've had several relatives and friends that have passed away due to cancer. That really doesn't change the fact that it's extremely low on my priority list.
Feb 26 2008 2:29PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
That's exactly how it is in much of america except you get handed a massive bill at the end. Go to an inner-city emergency room with something less than a sucking chest wound and see how long you wait.
Feb 26 2008 2:34PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Cuts to the quick, I like it.
Feb 26 2008 11:16PM
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coolhandluke
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 153
i had a direct experience in this a couple years ago.  my lung would collapse, i couldn't breathe, i go to hospital in san jose, but the time a doctor finally sees me and gets a chest xray the lungs re-inflated.  happened four times, no diagnosis, just chest pain and a hospital bill.  luckily it happened once in downtown seattle and my friend's dad is a doc at virgina mason, so i rolled into there, and they were speedy enough to catch the fact that my lung was collapsed. 
Feb 27 2008 12:29AM
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ferrinski86
Posts: 774 - Karma: 10
mabey you dont know this (just telling you for your info haha)
There are 7 states that dont have State income tax:
Alaska
Florida
Nevada
South Dakota
Texas
Washington
Wyoming
Feb 27 2008 3:02AM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
haha, yeah i knew about south Dakota, but i wasnt sure what other ones had or didnt have it..



Feb 27 2008 10:54AM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
hey man, in socialism, you may soon find yourself in the lower tax bracket. Have fun funding your skiing when half of your paycheck is taken out to help people for things they were too in over their heads to pay for.
Feb 27 2008 11:56AM
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cousinmark
Posts: 939 - Karma: 29
^^^cause no one skiis in canada or  france?!?!?!
Feb 27 2008 12:03PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
^ if he didn't have his parents who funded things like lift tickets or seasons pass or the car to get to the mountain and the gas money it took to get there. Also, skis, boots, poles (if you use them, which you should) jacket, pants, goggles, helmet. Also, food at the mountain. Skiing is damn expensive, and teens are already complaining enough that they get a lot of tax taken out. If you had to live on your paychecks, you couldnt do much with more and more money being taken out. If more and more of his parents paychecks are being removed, they will have less sentiment to spend and more sentiment to save or spend on bare essentials, therefore leaving him with old gear every year, unless he has a sick ass job and pays for everything himself and still has money left over after tax.
Feb 27 2008 12:09PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
Its not my problem that people cant afford to feed their kids. My parents have worked extremely hard in life to provide me and my siblings the comforts we have. Sure, its a tragedy that people dont have money to pay for food, but tell alot of these people to stop spending money on drugs and alcohol, tell them to look for a job, and start from there. After all, you need to work for things in life
Feb 27 2008 12:24PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
no, your wrong, its the governments job to level the playing field, and we should all just look to the governemnt for a way out of everything. {end sarcasm}

good post!

now lets look at my family, my dad has worked extremely hard to get to where is now, he makes roughly 100K a year..
he is a Capitan for mesaba airlines, every time he goes to "work" he has the life of 80 or so people in his hands..(literally)

now someone tell me why he should be payed the same, or close to the same, as someone who is flipping burgers at mickey D's ..

and those of you that will say being a pilot is puffy job, wrong! there are times it can be and times it is anything but..
Feb 27 2008 12:32PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
well put
Feb 27 2008 12:36PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
I don't think anyone with any understanding of what Obama wants or what socialism means (these are still very different things) would want your dad to be making the same money as someone flipping burgers.

It's not about turning everyone into mindless, government robots who do the same job for the same pay and then returning to their government issued shacks. By taking this argument to such irrational extremes you're revealing that you either don't have any clue what the fuck your talking about, or are too insecure in your own stance to  look at the situation fairly and have an intelligent debate on it.

It is about trying to deliver some sense of social justice and equality. I want nothing more than every American child to have access to health care, truly adequate public schooling (including options that make university level education attainable for anyone with the intelligence and ambition needed), clean air to breathe, clean water to drink and a safe place to live. What is so terrible about that?
Feb 27 2008 1:30PM
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Delphi
Posts: 3748 - Karma: 36
colleges cant run without money man, thats why they cost money. If you want to go to them, you have to pay, just like for everything else in life. I don't like how there are tuition breaks for certain people and none for others. Why should I have to pay more money to go to college than someone who goes to the exact same college but pays less?
Feb 27 2008 1:53PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
"social justice and equality" (shivers)

read my post again, why should there be equality between different jobs?

"I want nothing more than every American child to have access to health care, truly adequate public schooling (including options that make university level education attainable for anyone with the intelligence and ambition needed), clean air to breathe, clean water to drink and a safe place to live. What is so terrible about that?"
where did you copy paste this from? sounds exactly like a barack speech.
your right, these things are all great, but who is going to pay for them? we already do! we dont need more of it!
Feb 27 2008 1:58PM
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cousinmark
Posts: 939 - Karma: 29
your a colossal idiot. i have been on my own for 5 years and like millions of people in the world stuggle to make ends meet and the end of the month. last year i skied 1nce and ill be lucky if i get 5 days this year. after 3 years on ns it never ceases to amaze me how idiotic some of these herbs can be.
Feb 27 2008 2:01PM
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cousinmark
Posts: 939 - Karma: 29
and once again, while i havent been on top of things these past two years, there are plenty of young kids form modest families living in canda, france, spain, doing what they got to do to get up to the hill.
Feb 27 2008 2:07PM
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cousinmark
Posts: 939 - Karma: 29
^further more it seems as if americans complain the most about taxes and yet pay the least amnt of all the country's in the western world. idk it just seems natural that you have an obligation to contribute to the society you live in.
Feb 27 2008 2:09PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
Shut the fuck up kid unless you're actually going to read what people write. I specifically stated that there should not be "equality between different jobs" as you so incoherently put it.

Don't accuse me of copying and pasting, it sounds like a Barack speech because we have many similar values, hence why I will be voting for him in the fall. Also, you have already copied and pasted over a page of Glenn Beck's drivel/comedy as a serious political opinion several times in the other thread. Most of us know how to read, other than you apparently.

You live in an extremely sheltered and isolated world if you really believe that every American child currently has access to adequate education, health care, housing and other things. Further, if you can't see that we are headed towards some extremely major air and water quality problems, you're blind.

I don't necessarily advocate raising taxes, although that is one way to go about it. I'd rather see us re-allocate our resources away from nation building, interventionist foreign policy, and invest it in the future of our own country. There is plenty of money, we're just squandering it on bullshit like the Iraq war.
Feb 27 2008 2:44PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
ok ok ok im sorry i misinterpreted your statement!
an honest mistake on my part..

"I don't necessarily advocate raising taxes, although that is one way to go about it. I'd rather see us re-allocate our resources away from nation building, interventionist foreign policy, and invest it in the future of our own country. There is plenty of money, we're just squandering it on bullshit like the Iraq war."

well i think it is pretty clear, that we are in iraq for awhile . (unless barack wins) so where else is all this money going to magically appear from? besides taxes..

i have a very very, strong opinion that barack is a bad choice for president, but hey its my choice to believe that, right?

"You live in an extremely sheltered and isolated world if you really believe that every American child currently has access to adequate education, health care, housing and other things."

did i say that i think the public schools are perfect? NO!
and there are programs for people who dont have the funds to meet their own needs, they can get help. (for the most part)

notice i can make it through whole a post with out telling someone "to shut the fuck up" who is more open to different opinions, and new ideas now!
Feb 27 2008 3:35PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
This is better, now we're getting somewhere. I think that having adequate schools should be a top priority, and we are nowhere near that, so I strongly support any well thought out spending on that issue, something that you have railed against Obama for. There are some ways to find help if you are particularly ingenious/dedicated, but it really shouldn't be the responsibility of a nine year old child to find a way to get math textbooks for free (remember that many of these children are disadvantaged because of their parents, so it will fall entirely on them).

We may need to stay in Iraq, but that doesn't mean that we need to keep handing out ridiculous no bid contracts, by simply changing that I'm sure we could dig up at least a couple billion a year if not more to contribute to education. Further, the fact that we are in Iraq doesn't mean that we shouldn't change our foreign policy to avoid similar situations in the future. The actions of the bush administration and the republican party, (patriot acts, illegal wiretapping plus recent pardons, general terrorism fear-mongering) have brought us further and further from the constitution and made it more and more likely that we will involve ourselves in things we should stay far away from. Checks and balances are the heart and soul of our system, and we are doing away with them at an alarming rate of speed while pandering more and more to special interests.

   Sorry about the animosity, and thank you for re-reading my post. The sensationalist, Obama = communist Russia argument just really infuriates me as it is pretty ludicrous and really discredits any other legitimate points made.

On that note, remember that Russia's problems stemmed as much as if not more from the fact that it was a dictatorship than it's communism. Then think about how the losses of  personal freedoms,  and checks and balances in America and the triumph of special interests could be perceived as a far more dangerous step down that road than any amount of social spending programs.
Feb 27 2008 3:57PM
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